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Re: Yamaha vs Roland vs Casio? [Re: AnimistFvR] #2342697
10/29/14 01:49 AM
10/29/14 01:49 AM
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Quote
. . . I have heard that Casio (even the latest PX850) doesn't sound like an actual grand piano, and the keys are too light so you don't build up any muscle. I do not have the opportunity to try a Casio though. I do not really want to buy one, then be disappointed with what I have purchased. I have been warned to avoid Casio, so for the next DP I buy, it will not be a Casio. . .


Myths die hard . . . <sigh>

The key weight on the PX-x50 action is reasonably similar to the key weight on acoustic pianos. If you can play one comfortably, you can play the other.

That's not to say that the actions feel identical, or that the Casio sound generator "sounds the same as a grand piano".

. Charles

PS -- bias -- I own a Casio PX-350. I'm happy with the action. I'm using Pianoteq as a sound generator. While there's a Steinway imitation in Pianoteq (the "D4" piano), only _you_ will know if it sounds enough like a Steinway to be OK. A trial version (some notes are silent) is free, if you wanted to try it out.


. Charles
---------------------------
PX-350 / microKorg XL+ / Pianoteq / Lounge Lizard / Korg Wavedrum / EV ZXA1 speaker
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Re: Yamaha vs Roland vs Casio? [Re: AnimistFvR] #2342712
10/29/14 03:22 AM
10/29/14 03:22 AM
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Hamamatsu, Japan
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Originally Posted by AnimistFvR
So to sum everything up, I believe I'll go with the Yamaha unless Korg or Nord amazes me to the point of switching.


If you have not done so already, you may also wish to try a Kawai instrument.

Kind regards,
James
x


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.
Re: Yamaha vs Roland vs Casio? [Re: Charles Cohen] #2342748
10/29/14 06:19 AM
10/29/14 06:19 AM
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I will definitely see if I can try one. If not, I believe "Kraft Music" can send me one for $1,099 and if I don't like it within 30 days, I can send it back. (That may have only been a limited time event, but I have read that on their website before). So were you not satisfied with your Casio's sound? Or you personally prefer the sound of your VST?

Re: Yamaha vs Roland vs Casio? [Re: Kawai James] #2342750
10/29/14 06:33 AM
10/29/14 06:33 AM
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True. I cannot count Kawai out of the race. I have hardly scratched the surface of their instruments. Yet, I know they are VERY well known for having high quality pianos. I'll have to dive into their pianos for a bit, and see what interests me. Thank you for the recommendation. So far, Korg and Nord are out. They are not what I'm looking for in a piano that would fit my preference. I want a home, upright/console piano cabinet design. Which Yamaha, Roland, Casio and Kawai have. Buying a new DP that I plan to have for years to come is quite difficult. But I do not believe I will be dissatisfied with a Kawai. I will check some out today. Sadly, once again, I may not be able to try one per say. The only piano dealer I have close to me is a Yamaha dealer with Yamaha's that I do not like. Not saying their SOUND is bad ! But the ones he has, only have GHS action which is the lowest ranking action you can have on a Yamaha. If I go out of state, I can go to an insanely large DP dealer, so I may do that. Let's hope they have Kawais. For now, I will do my research on them. Hopefully I can find out the pros and the cons.

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Re: Yamaha vs Roland vs Casio? [Re: AnimistFvR] #2342753
10/29/14 06:45 AM
10/29/14 06:45 AM
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Hamamatsu, Japan
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AnimistFvR, I would recommend using the Kawai America dealer locator to find Kawai dealers in your area:

http://kawaius.com/locator2012.html

Best of luck!

Kind regards,
James
x


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.
Re: Yamaha vs Roland vs Casio? [Re: Kawai James] #2342760
10/29/14 07:21 AM
10/29/14 07:21 AM
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It turns out there is in fact another dealer, approximately 50 miles away from my current location. Thank you for the help. For Kawai pianos, the CA65 seems to suit my needs. So if I go with Kawai, I believe that will be what I buy.

Re: Yamaha vs Roland vs Casio? [Re: AnimistFvR] #2342820
10/29/14 09:58 AM
10/29/14 09:58 AM
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Originally Posted by AnimistFvR
I have heard that Casio (even the latest PX850) doesn't sound like an actual grand piano, and the keys are too light so you don't build up any muscle. I do not have the opportunity to try a Casio though. I do not really want to buy one, then be disappointed with what I have purchased. I have been warned to avoid Casio, so for the next DP I buy, it will not be a Casio. I will find a way to try out a Casio whenever I decide to upgrade pianos again.


Good grief....
The PX-850 happens to be one of our best sellers. The action used in Privia products (in my opinion) is one of the finest you'll find. That along with the piano sound itself is why you now find many (non-paid) artists using Casio. Steve Weingart, Larry Dunn, Michael Boddicker, the late Joe Sample and many more.

Casio Privia digital pianos are backed with a 3 year warranty. Models such as the PX-850 have in home service available should a problem arise but if you search the web you'll see that issues such as that are few and far between.

While Casio doesn't say specifically which model of piano is recorded, having played the specific model I can tell you that it is an excellent representation of that specific 9 foot concert grand. Casio's sampling process actually involved 48 different microphones which are meticulously mixed and combined to provide a stereo piano sound that is even, accurate and also one that unlike many others that works superbly in a mono / live situation. Casio actually uses very little processing and audio compression during the sampling process. Utilizing the choices of piano presets and touch settings you can get a remarkably dynamic and expressive piano sound from the PX-850 that will suit a variety of musical needs.

Casio is the second largest digital piano manufacturer in the world. Frankly anyone that saying the things you mention has no clue about Casio.

I'm attaching this Youtube video - although this is Casio's PX-5S the piano preset that Steve uses is the "Classical Grand" which is identical to the preset of the same name on the PX-850.



-Mike Martin
Casio America

Casio Music Forums
Re: Yamaha vs Roland vs Casio? [Re: Mike_Martin] #2342831
10/29/14 10:25 AM
10/29/14 10:25 AM
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- that beard definitely helps me enjoy the sound more.

Re: Yamaha vs Roland vs Casio? [Re: Mike_Martin] #2342833
10/29/14 10:30 AM
10/29/14 10:30 AM
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San Juan, Puerto Rico
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Originally Posted by Mike_Martin
Originally Posted by AnimistFvR
I have heard that Casio (even the latest PX850) doesn't sound like an actual grand piano, and the keys are too light so you don't build up any muscle. I do not have the opportunity to try a Casio though. I do not really want to buy one, then be disappointed with what I have purchased. I have been warned to avoid Casio, so for the next DP I buy, it will not be a Casio. I will find a way to try out a Casio whenever I decide to upgrade pianos again.


Good grief....
The PX-850 happens to be one of our best sellers. The action used in Privia products (in my opinion) is one of the finest you'll find. That along with the piano sound itself is why you now find many (non-paid) artists using Casio. Steve Weingart, Larry Dunn, Michael Boddicker, the late Joe Sample and many more.

Casio Privia digital pianos are backed with a 3 year warranty. Models such as the PX-850 have in home service available should a problem arise but if you search the web you'll see that issues such as that are few and far between.

While Casio doesn't say specifically which model of piano is recorded, having played the specific model I can tell you that it is an excellent representation of that specific 9 foot concert grand. Casio's sampling process actually involved 48 different microphones which are meticulously mixed and combined to provide a stereo piano sound that is even, accurate and also one that unlike many others that works superbly in a mono / live situation. Casio actually uses very little processing and audio compression during the sampling process. Utilizing the choices of piano presets and touch settings you can get a remarkably dynamic and expressive piano sound from the PX-850 that will suit a variety of musical needs.

Casio is the second largest digital piano manufacturer in the world. Frankly anyone that saying the things you mention has no clue about Casio.


I agree with Mike Martin on his points. I purchased a PX-350 a few months ago after trying practically every digital piano under $1000 available in Puerto Rico (sadly couldn't try Kawai at that time) and the quality of the action and sounds of the Privia are great, particularly in a mono live setting. The person mentioning bad points about Casio just hasn't tried the Privia line and is probably comparing it to old children's keyboards from Casio. However I do agree that the Privia DPs are among the best you can get for the low price point and have recommended them to everyone that is even the least bit interested in learning the piano.


Casio Privia PX-5S | Onstage KS7150 Stand | Audio Technica M40x Monitor Headphones | Roland Cube CM-30 PA/Monitor | Galaxy Instruments Vintage D VST
Re: Yamaha vs Roland vs Casio? [Re: Mike_Martin] #2342836
10/29/14 10:36 AM
10/29/14 10:36 AM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 14,794
Hamamatsu, Japan
Kawai James Online content
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Originally Posted by Mike_Martin
Casio is the second largest digital piano manufacturer in the world.


Mike, may I ask, is that based on annual unit sales, profit, number of employees, etc.?

Cheers,
James
x


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.
Re: Yamaha vs Roland vs Casio? [Re: Mike_Martin] #2342840
10/29/14 10:40 AM
10/29/14 10:40 AM
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So I'm assuming you wish of me to take Casio back into consideration.. I understand why Casio doesn't specify what piano they sample, because of promotional purposes of course. I am truly, just simply, looking for a great manufacturer that samples a Steinway concert grand. Even if Roland does it, they do something to their sound that ruins it for me... Casio, on the other hand, I am unsure of. I am not saying they're a bad brand to have at all ! I wouldn't know.. From the sound of tutorial videos online, they sound great. If I may show you, there is a video comparison of a Casio AP-450 vs "A concert grand piano", I believe this "concert grand piano" is a Steinway. Now, I have heard that the AP series and the Privia series essentially sound the same. Or similar at least. So hopefully if I do get a Casio, it will be decently accurate TO A STEINWAY, if that is the piano sampled. So here is the video, please tell me if you think that piano is a Steinway as well. SKIP TO THE 1:20 MARK. You can see the brand logo/name on the side of the piano. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ENliynLPfrE

Re: Yamaha vs Roland vs Casio? [Re: kenneth95] #2342848
10/29/14 10:53 AM
10/29/14 10:53 AM
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AnimistFvR, if it is really the sound of a Steinway grand piano (which in itself is a world of differing possibilities) then I'd suggest the only solution is to use VSTi - there are fine sample sets from Synthology (Ivory II) and Galaxy (Vintage D) as well as True Keys American. Those three are attested to time and time again on this forum. There are dozens of other choices too, but I'd choose one of those three, I think. You can sample them on-line, of course.

The thing is, yes, Roland do process the sound until it's their own sound, even though Steinway based. It's the same, to a lesser extent with the other hardware DP makers. The results are acceptable, or excellent for many DP users.

However, the closest to one of the many raw Steinway sound-sets, would almost certainly be a VSTi sample which you can run on a computer. Use Kawai VCP1 as a controller - or indeed a Casio PX-150, or Roland or Yamaha DP - which ever feels the most like a piano you like playing.

PS Mike Martin said ...the late Joe Sample...

This was sad to hear about. Joe Sample died on September 12th apparently. I saw him with the Crusaders back in 1976 in Liverpool.

Last edited by toddy; 10/29/14 11:05 AM.

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Re: Yamaha vs Roland vs Casio? [Re: kenneth95] #2342849
10/29/14 10:53 AM
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Does any company really states they sampled an Steinway? Maybe there are copyright issues and they can't clearly state it.

But if it's that impostant to you I would simply get one of the virtual pianos that are sampled from an Steinway (since many use terms like "Classic grand", "American grand", "Grand d" which make reference to a Model D).

Native instruments has a new one too (The Grandeur), only 99 USD.

Re: Yamaha vs Roland vs Casio? [Re: toddy] #2342857
10/29/14 11:14 AM
10/29/14 11:14 AM
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I am in love with the sounds a Steinway can produce, EVEN THOUGH THEY ARE ALL DIFFERENT OF COURSE, they have a point to where they are all similar as well... I plan to purchase a VST later on, maybe a couple months after I buy a piano, but I'm not too much of a fan of having to connect it to my computer.. I would like to just sit down at my piano, press the power button, and start playing right then and there. Otherwise I would be happy to buy a VST and not even be asking in this forum. For a VST, your computer/laptop has to be connected at all times right? That's pretty irritating IMHO.... I AM going to buy a VST, it will be Ivory II, (I have already completed my research on VSTs), but if I have to have my computer running constantly, it's just... how to put this.. inconvenient.

Re: Yamaha vs Roland vs Casio? [Re: login] #2342858
10/29/14 11:16 AM
10/29/14 11:16 AM
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No, none of them state it. I believe that is the reason too.

Well, I just went on a little bit of a rant about it in a post I sent to the guy above you.. VSTs SOUND amazing, but are inconvenient.

Re: Yamaha vs Roland vs Casio? [Re: kenneth95] #2342865
10/29/14 11:29 AM
10/29/14 11:29 AM
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Nord usually indicates which pianos were sampled by brand name. They have specific grand piano samples of steinway, yamaha, and fazioli pianos (among others - and many more samples of various upright pianos).


Nord Stage 2 HA88
Roland RD800
Re: Yamaha vs Roland vs Casio? [Re: AnimistFvR] #2342884
10/29/14 11:57 AM
10/29/14 11:57 AM
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Originally Posted by AnimistFvR
I will definitely see if I can try one. If not, I believe "Kraft Music" can send me one for $1,099 and if I don't like it within 30 days, I can send it back. (That may have only been a limited time event, but I have read that on their website before). So were you not satisfied with your Casio's sound? Or you personally prefer the sound of your VST?


I assume this question is for me.

I had two issues with the PX-350 sound:

. . . the note decay time is rather short (compared to an acoustic)

. . . there's no "string resonance", and the sound is much cleaner
. . . that the sound of an acoustic piano.

Pianoteq fixes both of those problems, for a reasonable price. IMHO, it gets me closer to an "acoustic piano experience" than the PX-350. I've been using the Bluthner sound, but the "D4" sound (presumably designed to mimic a Steinway) is OK as well.

The PX-850 (which I haven't played) _does_ have string resonance, and likely sounds better than the PX-350. I'd _guess_ that its sound sits somewhere between Pianoteq and the PX-350.

You really have to play some digital pianos, in different price ranges, by different makers. Until you do, what we're saying here may _seem_ to make sense, but (trust me) you don't really understand it.

That's especially true if you're judging DP's by their Youtube videos. MP3 compression changes sound, and different players set up their DP's differently for recording. So there's a degradation of quality, and no consistency.

If you think of a DP as a long-term purchase, and its sound really matters to you, it's worth going out-of-state to find something that you _like_, rather than something that someone else recommended.

. Charles

PS -- there are people who don't like Pianoteq. And there are arguments over which sample library is the best. This is not a field where "objective judgments" are easy.




. Charles
---------------------------
PX-350 / microKorg XL+ / Pianoteq / Lounge Lizard / Korg Wavedrum / EV ZXA1 speaker
Re: Yamaha vs Roland vs Casio? [Re: Charles Cohen] #2342894
10/29/14 12:12 PM
10/29/14 12:12 PM
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It's quite difficult to go try some in my current predicament, but I can go try some Yamahas and Kawais. I will see how I like them. Yes I heard that the PX850 and PX750 use a different sound engine than the PX350.. I am not trying to judge my entire purchase from simple internet research. I am simply trying to figure out what's best in specs and get some opinion of sound quality and action is all. Even though I know that with all instruments, it's personal preference. My requests may seem ridiculous, but I love to have opinions of other pianist on the matter. Just to hear all of your thoughts. I wish piano manufacturers could be more direct with their sound. I guess I will simply try to get the best action I possibly can, then use what everyone seems to what me to use, a VST.

Re: Yamaha vs Roland vs Casio? [Re: fizikisto] #2342901
10/29/14 12:29 PM
10/29/14 12:29 PM
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Originally Posted by AnimistFvR
My budget has increased up to around $2,500 fortunately.
...
I have heard that Casio (even the latest PX850) doesn't sound like an actual grand piano, and the keys are too light so you don't build up any muscle.

As has been mentioned, Casios are better than you think, in both sound and action. But also, there's a lot of personal preference to this. On another forum, someone recently posted a blind audio test between a Casio and a much more expensive Nord, and while most people thought the Nord sounded better, a substantial portion (27 of the 94 voters) still thought the Casio sounded as good or better. You really do need to listen for yourself. That said, while the Casio is a good board and an excellent value, in your new higher price range, it is probably likely that you'd find something you like more.


Originally Posted by fizikisto

Nord usually indicates which pianos were sampled by brand name. They have specific grand piano samples of steinway, yamaha, and fazioli pianos (among others - and many more samples of various upright pianos).

Actually, Nord is a little cagey about it as well. They do freely mention Steinway. But look, for example, at the pages for the Italian Grand, Bright Grand, or Grand Imperial, and you will not explicitly find the words Fazioli, Yamaha, or Bosendorfer on those pages! As others have alluded to, I think companies just want to be very careful when using other companies' trademarked names. Same reason most clonewheels talk about emulating a "rotary speaker" rather than a Leslie. There can be ways around it, whether by getting permission, or by having lawyers carefully check the exact phrasing and context of your usage... but the simplest solution is to not use the term at all!

Re: Yamaha vs Roland vs Casio? [Re: Kawai James] #2342907
10/29/14 12:42 PM
10/29/14 12:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Kawai James
Originally Posted by Mike_Martin
Casio is the second largest digital piano manufacturer in the world.


Mike, may I ask, is that based on annual unit sales, profit, number of employees, etc.?

Cheers,
James
x


Sales. Of course Kawai may be bigger if you include acoustic pianos, but that isn't what I said. Likewise Roland is probably a larger company in the "music equipment business" but when it comes to digital pianos Casio has a much larger share.


-Mike Martin
Casio America

Casio Music Forums
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