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Re: Piano Rankings
phantomFive #2342471 10/28/14 02:19 PM
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Pianists in the US know what a Bosendorfer is (particularly the Imperial), even if they haven't played one. Most of them have heard of a Fazioli as well (some combination of the largest production model available in the market and the price). Bechstein and Bluthner, not as much, unless they have a more international background.


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Re: Piano Rankings
Joseph Fleetwood #2342477 10/28/14 02:30 PM
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Originally Posted by joe80
I work with a choir and they don't always realise when they're a semitone flat..... I've worked with professional cellists etc, in chamber music situations and they don't realise how much they play out of time, and so the list goes on.


Wasn't this about non-pianists who didn't know different piano brands? As a cellist, I must say I've played with pianists who couldn't keep time either, and many who couldn't tell their piano was out of tune. Let's not bash the other musicians! smile


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Re: Piano Rankings
Steve Peterson #2342481 10/28/14 02:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Steve Peterson
Originally Posted by Todd-Davis Germain
Wouldn't it be tasty if we had a piano review written from the professional performer's point of view; not amateurs, not part-time gig-men, not wannabes, not aficionados, not groupies, but bona fide pianists who make their living on the world's great stages. Now that would be a good read.


It would be interesting, but also most piano buyers are not professional pianists. I'm not sure how instructive it would be to buyers. For instance, one of the reasons given for Steinway's dominance in the concert hall is its projection ability. Steinways are a strong choice if you want to be heard over the orchestra. That's useful for concertizing pianists, but completely irrelevant to a home piano buyer.

I'd still like to read this type of article, but it'll never happen. If a given reviewer is a Steinway Artist, how likely is he to say that he prefers the touch or tone of a different piano, even if he really does. Steinway has a history of punishing artists who speak well of other pianists.

It's the main reason that I completely disregard performer's quotes about specific brands (for all brands, not just Steinway.) There's no way to know if that's what they really think, or if they are saying it because of a sponsorship, or because they don't want to lose access to a large fleet of quality pianos when they travel.

That said, for all its flaws, I love Larry's book, including his rankings. It's the best effort I've seen to help make the incredibly complex decisions about piano buying more accessible to "normal" people. And no, I don't include PianoWorld regulars in that category. We're all piano geeks.


Hi Steve! Just curious, are you implying that Steinway artists, in general, are endorsing the piano against their will? We all know of the Lourtie/Ohlsson stories, but I mean overall. Steinway artists aren't like Tiger Woods endorsing Nike for millions of dollars. They make zero $ from the agreement. The contract is simple: it asks artists to own a Steinway and to perform on a Steinway. In turn, the artist can count on having a prepped Steinway to play on. More importantly, Steinway artists are realistic and reasonable people; if you were to ask if they've played on Skigeru Kawais or Bosendorfers, they will most likely say yes and agree they're fine pianos. Point is, the artist's agenda is the most pure: tone/touch. If Angela Hewitt sees fit to endorse Fazioli, I'd at least consider the brand because of her performing abilities. She's unlikely to endorse a lemon piano because her career and reputation depend on it.

Researching pianos is fine, pardon the pun, but to research sound you have to get out there and play these lovely beasts. If customers don't know anything about pianos, or what to listen for, they need guidance, and I'd rather that guidance come from someone who doesn't make their money building or selling pianos. That's not to say dealers/makers aren't universally untrustworthy...anyway, you get my point.

BTW, Steinway's a great choice if you want to play softly too wink

Re: Piano Rankings
Joseph Fleetwood #2342482 10/28/14 02:43 PM
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Originally Posted by joe80
I think it's true the world over that Fazioli, Bluthner, Bechstein and even Bosendorfer are lesser known brands unless you're a pianist.

Even professional musicians who are not pianists don't really know the other brands all that well.

So, they carry prestige and people recognise them as quality brands, but only amongst those who know about pianos.

For everyone else, Steinway carries the prestige. In fact now, because Yamaha is so ubiquitous, Yamaha is carrying quite a lot of prestige too.

Hello joe80. I'd like to borrow your words for a moment and substitute piano brands with prestige timepieces:

I think it's true the world over that Vacheron Constantin, Patek Philippe, and Audemars Piguet are lesser known brands unless you're a horologist.

Even people with nice watches who are not true aficionados don't really know the other brands all that well.

So, they carry prestige and people recognise them as quality brands, but only amongst those who know about timepieces.

For everyone else, Rolex carries the prestige. In fact now, because Omega is so [heavily advertised in movies & in print], Omega is carrying quite a lot of prestige too.
....
(For the record, I enjoy my Citizen & Casio watches wink )


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Re: Piano Rankings
Corvus #2342489 10/28/14 02:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Corvus

If Yamaha raised the price of its pianos to equal those of Bösendorfer's, I think the prestige of Yamaha pianos would still not equal, much less exceed, that of Bösendorfer pianos. So there's something more than just price and name recognition that goes into the equation.


You are right. There's much more to it. Name recognition can be quantified. Poll 100 random shoppers at a mall to sample their recognition of five brand names ranging in familiarity from Burger King to Bösendorfer. Burger King will most likely lead the brand recognition parade, but be at or near the bottom if the shoppers are then asked to order the five brands in terms of prestige.

Presitge cannot be quantified. It can't even be isolated from the perception of the viewer. It exists in the viewer, not in the object viewed.

Making the leap from brand recognition to prestige is utterly impossible if there's no recognition to start with. Some products categories can be marketed on the basis of prestige – real estate, colleges, cars, hotels, clothing, even upscale cooking ranges and sunglasses. There's so little interest in pianos in the US that you would need a very focused target consumer group to get anything useful out of your effort to find prestige. Without that narrow target, at best you'd get a small collection of data points insufficient to indicate a pattern.

Back in his Piano Book days, Larry assigned a value to each piano brand for information. Information referred to how much information he had available to support his judgments. In the last edition of Piano Book, Yamaha received five stars, Bechstein, 2.5 stars, Sauter 2 stars, and Haessler 1.5.This rating was far more useful to the reader than attempts to quantify prestige in a ratings chart. But the Piano Book days are gone, and the purpose of Piano Buyer is quite different. I suppose he doesn't feel it necessary to indicate what kind of information and how much of it he has from ouside the piano industry itself to support his judgments of prestige.


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Re: Piano Rankings
terminaldegree #2342496 10/28/14 03:03 PM
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Originally Posted by terminaldegree
Originally Posted by Todd-Davis Germain

I like to remind lay shoppers of the following: Larry Fine has published a wonderfully valuable resource, but it's written from technicians' point of view. Piano techs are not professional pianists; piano makers are not professional pianists; piano dealers are not professional pianists; heck, most piano teachers aren't professional pianists.
Wouldn't it be tasty if we had a piano review written from the professional performer's point of view;


In the "Piano Book" days, that used to be true. We now have reviews and online content from professional pianists (including active recording artists, academics, and well-established freelance performers) and educators in every issue of the "Piano Buyer", and have been doing so for some time. These reviews encompass the entirety of the market, from entry-level to high-end, and now includes digital pianos as well (not to mention a recent entry on educational software). Our point of view is actively solicited by Larry, combined with input he gets from his staff (which includes people in the retail, manufacturing, technical, and performance/educational sectors). He is exceedingly willing to listen.

I'll repeat what I've mentioned here before: if you're interested in becoming a reviewer for the Piano Buyer, send me a recording (or link to one, preferably unedited), a writing sample, and give me some sort of bio/resume, as well as a listing of geographic areas where you're available to do a review.


Yes indeed, fair point. Let's put it this way, what the dealer will cherry pick and show the customer is typically technical in nature, or things along the lines of the "prestige" chart. If customers have actually read the entire Piano Buyer, they will have read those reviews from players. Again, it's a fantastic resource. Love it.

Re: Piano Rankings
Todd-Davis Germain #2342517 10/28/14 03:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Todd-Davis Germain
Hi Steve! Just curious, are you implying that Steinway artists, in general, are endorsing the piano against their will? We all know of the Lourtie/Ohlsson stories, but I mean overall. Steinway artists aren't like Tiger Woods endorsing Nike for millions of dollars. They make zero $ from the agreement. The contract is simple: it asks artists to own a Steinway and to perform on a Steinway. In turn, the artist can count on having a prepped Steinway to play on. More importantly, Steinway artists are realistic and reasonable people; if you were to ask if they've played on Skigeru Kawais or Bosendorfers, they will most likely say yes and agree they're fine pianos. Point is, the artist's agenda is the most pure: tone/touch. If Angela Hewitt sees fit to endorse Fazioli, I'd at least consider the brand because of her performing abilities. She's unlikely to endorse a lemon piano because her career and reputation depend on it.


No, I didn't want to imply that pianists are endorsing the pianos against their will. I wouldn't say that the endorsements are necessarily out of their pure love of Steinways. I think the reality is a combination of factors.

Let me first say, Steinway pianos, particularly the C&A pianos are very good pianos. That's definitely a major factor.

However, I think that a major concern for an artist is the availability of good pianos where they perform. If you're performing in NYC, that's not a problem, but if you're performing in a smaller market, Steinway may be the only company that has concert-level pianos available for performing, because they have the largest and deepest fleet of C&A pianos in the industry. The way you guarantee that you have access to these pianos is to be a Steinway artist. If you aren't, or if you are an artist who has fallen in disfavor of Steinway, you may not get access to those pianos.

So if I'm a concert artist who, say, really loves Steingraeber pianos, am I going to throw my hat into the Steingraeber ring and endorse them? Well, they can't provide pianos except for in the large markets. On the other hand, if I become a Steinway artist, I get a good piano practically everywhere. Now let's say I'm playing in a city where I could get a fantastic Steingraeber piano to play in a concert, and I'm a Steinway artist. Steinway does not take very lightly their artists playing on competing pianos if a Steinway piano is available.

If I'm a big name artist, I can probably get away with playing what I want when I want sometimes if I'm a Steinway artist. For the majority of concert pianists, I run the very real risk of not having an adequate piano available to me when I play in Schenectady, NY, and that's terrifying to me.

This is not in any way a knock on Steinway pianos, and isn't to say that there aren't a lot of artists that love them. Steinways have some very nice qualities that many artists look for. But we can't count the likelihood that at least some of these pianists chose Steinway for pragmatic reasons as well as (and for some instead of) artistic reasons.

Reality is, Steinway has cornered the market on concert pianos. They use their market power to control this market. This isn't evil, or bad, but it means that we should understand that some of this market position isn't necessarily a statement of the overwhelming superiority of Steinway, which is what Steinway would want us to think.

Originally Posted by Todd-Davis Germain

BTW, Steinway's a great choice if you want to play softly too wink


No question of that. A Steinway in the home is a great choice. But the ability to cut through a concert hall, or the availability of C&A pianos all over the world don't impact the consumer a whit.


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Re: Piano Rankings
phantomFive #2342535 10/28/14 04:49 PM
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Although the Fine rankings for sometime have been according to him mostly a picture of how makers position their piano in the market(price), he has also said that price generally corresponds to quality.

In addition, the rankings from the time when the pianos were specifically ranked on quality(or sometimes specifically on several subcategories of quality)are extremely close to the present rankings at least in what is now called performance grade pianos.

So I think it is a mistake to say, as some in this thread seem to have implied, that the present rankings have little or nothing to do with quality.

Last edited by pianoloverus; 10/28/14 04:55 PM.
Re: Piano Rankings
turandot #2342540 10/28/14 05:11 PM
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Originally Posted by turandot

Prestige cannot be quantified. It can't even be isolated from the perception of the viewer. It exists in the viewer, not in the object viewed.


Of course prestige can be quantified, as can any opinion or perception. Pollsters, opinion surveyers, and market researchers do it every day. Which is precisely what Larry Fine's new treatment of Steinway (NY) reflects. Correctly, in my opinion.

Larry.

Re: Piano Rankings
Steve Peterson #2342595 10/28/14 07:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Steve Peterson
Steinways have some very nice qualities that many artists look for. But we can't count the likelihood that at least some of these pianists chose Steinway for pragmatic reasons as well as (and for some instead of) artistic reasons.


If 25,000 pianists endorsed Steinway, I might buy that, but as of today there are only about 1500, not exactly a conspiracy-inducing number. The idea that 1500 people would endorse Steinway based on love of the product is not a stretch. Again, if the number were upwards of 25,000, maybe I'd grant you the point.

Moreover, if you preferred Steingraeber, and can't get them in smaller markets, why would you care which other piano you got, be it Steinway, Kawai, Yamaha, etc.? Why endorse Steinway? (again, which means you have to own one). Seems like a lot of trouble to go to just for pragmatic reasons.

Full disclosure: I'm married to a Steinway artist and am friends with about 20 of them.

Re: Piano Rankings
PianoWorksATL #2342612 10/28/14 07:51 PM
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Originally Posted by PianoWorksATL

I think it's true the world over that Vacheron Constantin, Patek Philippe, and Audemars Piguet are lesser known brands unless you're a horologist.

Even people with nice watches who are not true aficionados don't really know the other brands all that well.

So, they carry prestige and people recognise them as quality brands, but only amongst those who know about timepieces.......


....
(For the record, I enjoy my Citizen & Casio watches wink )


Sam,

I don't have much background in this, and I really didn't even know what a horologist was until I looked it up. I was thinking maybe it was some high-class kind of pimp. But now that I've got that straightened out in my head and read your post again, I think I want to get tuned in to horology.

The thing is, I want to ease in slowly at the entry level. Then whenever my time telling skills improve, I can upgrade. Do any of these fine makers you mention have an entry-level performance grade timepiece in the near luxury segment? No Chinese action part though please. smokin

All I need is a stainless steel case and a sturdy leather strap. I don't want one of those gaudy diamond-littered Piaget jobs attracting the wrong kind of attention at airports and European train stations. Those pickpockets can leave you in your undershorts.

What I have now is a Timex Expedition, so even a Casio would be an upgrade I guess. The thing hasn't failed me yet, but I know one day it will. It's sure to have some Chinese parts. Actually the whole thing was probably made in China.

Let me know what you'd recommend for me.


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Re: Piano Rankings
turandot #2342633 10/28/14 08:40 PM
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Originally Posted by turandot


The thing is, I want to ease in slowly at the entry level. Then whenever my time telling skills improve, I can upgrade. Do any of these fine makers you mention have an entry-level performance grade timepiece in the near luxury segment? No Chinese action part though please.



too d**m funny. Are you sure you shouldn't be writing for T.V.?
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Re: Piano Rankings
turandot #2342635 10/28/14 08:42 PM
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Originally Posted by turandot
Let me know what you'd recommend for me.

I recommend a digital....


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Re: Piano Rankings
PianoWorksATL #2342636 10/28/14 08:47 PM
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Originally Posted by turandot
Let me know what you'd recommend for me.

...or maybe one of those newfangled analog/digital hybrids. grin


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Re: Piano Rankings
turandot #2342666 10/28/14 10:27 PM
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Originally Posted by turandot
Originally Posted by PianoWorksATL

I think it's true the world over that Vacheron Constantin, Patek Philippe, and Audemars Piguet are lesser known brands unless you're a horologist.

Even people with nice watches who are not true aficionados don't really know the other brands all that well.

So, they carry prestige and people recognise them as quality brands, but only amongst those who know about timepieces.......


....
(For the record, I enjoy my Citizen & Casio watches wink )


Sam,

I don't have much background in this, and I really didn't even know what a horologist was until I looked it up. I was thinking maybe it was some high-class kind of pimp. But now that I've got that straightened out in my head and read your post again, I think I want to get tuned in to horology.

The thing is, I want to ease in slowly at the entry level. Then whenever my time telling skills improve, I can upgrade. Do any of these fine makers you mention have an entry-level performance grade timepiece in the near luxury segment? No Chinese action part though please. smokin

All I need is a stainless steel case and a sturdy leather strap. I don't want one of those gaudy diamond-littered Piaget jobs attracting the wrong kind of attention at airports and European train stations. Those pickpockets can leave you in your undershorts.

What I have now is a Timex Expedition, so even a Casio would be an upgrade I guess. The thing hasn't failed me yet, but I know one day it will. It's sure to have some Chinese parts. Actually the whole thing was probably made in China.

Let me know what you'd recommend for me.


It's funny how Sam made that fine timepiece analogy! In high-end watches, almost everyone knows the Rolex name, but those other fine Swiss watch makers, like many high quality European piano makers would draw a blank on the face of an average American consumer. I got drawn into watch collecting a couple of years after I bought my piano. Just as a digital piano will not go out of tune, unlike a Steinway D, a $10 digital watch will keep better time over the course of a month than all but the most highly-regulated Rolex. Tune ups and oilings for the Rolex every five years or so, run about $500.

If you want a decent, non-digital watch may I suggest Orient. They make mostly mechanical, self-winding models and are a part of Seiko-Epson. Look at their diver styled watches for a non-formal watch (the Orient Mako or Orient Ray) and for a more formal dress watch, the Orient Bambino models are nice. All Orient watches have Japanese mechanical components and are assembled in Japan, Singapore and Korea. Those models are available for a little over $100. They are analogous in the piano world to buying a Hailun or Brodmann or Ritmuller. Sometimes in life when you want that Steinway or Rolex, you have to compromise a bit. It's no different for us amateur horologists and pianists. grin thumb

PS - There are $2000 Casio watches that are very collectable!!!

Last edited by Emissary52; 10/28/14 10:55 PM. Reason: more info!

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Re: Piano Rankings
PhilipInChina #2342681 10/28/14 11:16 PM
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Couldn't agree more,

Re: Piano Rankings
phantomFive #2344646 11/02/14 08:03 PM
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Sorry, folks, but I really don't see how any classification with a "one item group" would make any sense at all...


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Re: Piano Rankings
Piano.Brazil #2344741 11/02/14 11:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Piano_Brazil
Sorry, folks, but I really don't see how any classification with a "one item group" would make any sense at all...


Why not?


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