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#233987 03/20/08 10:21 PM
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Ken,

I disagree. Threads on an internet forum wander where they may. Terry participates on here of his own free will, and as such is subject to compliments and criticisms as posters will mete out.

No one here has speculated wildly... merely looked at a public track record and his own business's public statements. There have been no unreasonable or slanderous comments posted here - just common sense.


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#233988 03/21/08 03:45 AM
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I agree with RPA, mikhailoh and Monica. This is not just about the OP's problem but about business practices which are consumer unfriendly and/or deceptive and for which people should be warned and or advised on how to seek remedies if they have already got sucked in.

My understanding of and experience with the Uniform Commercial Code is that it functions as a "Law of the gaps" for commercial contracts.

We haven't seen any contractual documents but have been told that no guarantee as to delivery time is provided. In essence, that is also a gap. Despite there being no explicit guarantee of delivery time, a seller is still required to act in good faith and in court, judges would look at what is reasonable under the circumstances.

There are a number of factors in play which would be relevant to repudiate a contract or claim anticipatory breach under the provisions of the UCC.

1. PSS claims to be a wholesaler which implies the ability to deliver from stock and creates reasonable expectations of performance from customers;

2. The reasons stated on the website for longer delivery are that PSS uses piano moving companies instead of common carriers, not that they are simply acting as a middleman passing make-to-order POs to a Chinese manufacturer;

3. There are ranges of common delivery times listed on the website if an order would have to come from the factory to the customer of 6-12 weeks with 12 weeks being the longest time mentioned; these do not extend into 7 months or years;

4. There are well-known industry standards for acceptable delivery performance (prior conduct, custom & usage);

Customers who still want to risk doing business with a company with these kinds of terms and conditions would be well advised to consider:

A. Requesting the specific serial number of the piano that will be "shipped from one of PSS wholesale warehouses". If they can't identify the goods, it is because the goods aren't there.

B. Specify your own contract terms for ordering from PSS. These should reasonable include:
- paying only a down payment versus the entire amount in advance and the remainder upon delivery;
- specifying a maximum length, mutually acceptable delivery date;
- the ability to cancel your order if the delivery date is not met and for 100% your cash to be returned to you without further penalty within 48 hours.

If they aren't willing to do this, then you know that their story is "too crazy to be true."

#233989 03/21/08 06:07 AM
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In general and without looking now at PSS specifically but at the business model which is described (eg full piano price piano gets paid in advance to the overseas producers, one assumes before the piano is built in the first place): what happens if the piano producer goes bankrupt after receiving the money?

I can imagine only two possibilties:

1. the "dealer" has somewhere in his terms and conditions that he acts only as a broker, the purchase taking place between the end client and the piano producer or other foreign entity. In this case the end client bears the risk of insolvency.

2. The seller is in fact the one who owns the piano to the client after taking the order and is obliged to provide the client with a satisfactory alternative piano of giving him the money back. In this case I cannot imagine any other outcome than the insolvency of the seller, as due to the backlog a substantial number of pianos will have been already paid in full and never to be delivered (unless, of course, there is some kind of insurance in place which by chinese producer, intransparent and with extremely qiestionable accounting method in the best of cases, seems not an easy exercise to me).

In the sum, this system of paying a piano a couple of months in advance in order to (as stated in the internet site) obtain the best possible conditions from the overseas producer seems to me to introduce an element of risk of a substantial nature and going much further the risk of delayed delivery. In a way or other, it seems to me that the client bears the insolvency risk of a chinese piano company for several months, for the full amount paid for the piano.

It might be that there are mitigants to this risk that I have not considered (the already mentioned insurance; or cash reserves by the seller company able to meet such scenarios; or other methods like eg that the seller puts the money on an escrow account to be released only after delivery of the piano); but if I were a potential client who bears that insolvency risk this is a question that I would pose myself not half.

Obviously this is valid also for costco etc. and applies to the insolvency risk of the warehouse even if the piano is already there.

For this reason, to make an example, when you order a car apart from a small down payment you pay the car when you get it; otherwise you would remain with an unsecured credit against the dealer after he has gone bust, which would not be of much use.

However one twists and turns it, to pay 100% of the price in advance seems to me to bear risks of which I wonder if they are fully clear to the client at the moment of making the down payment in full; the moment a dealer or piano maker goes bust , in my eyes only a tiny minority of the clients would say "I had already considered the risk and decided to go on with the purchase".


"The man that hath no music in himself / Nor is not mov'd with concord of sweet sounds / Is fit for treasons, stratagems, and spoils." (W.Shakespeare)

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#233990 03/21/08 07:34 AM
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Quote
Originally posted by theJourney:
The topic of this thread is "The Piano Superstore" in response to the OP Enzo's problem. Please stay on topic. You can always start your own thread that is not PSS related.
Quote
Originally posted by theJourney:
This is not just about the OP's problem but about business practices which are consumer unfriendly and/or deceptive and for which people should be warned and or advised on how to seek remedies if they have already got sucked in.
Can you spell "intellectual integrity"?

It's amazing. Not only is TJ and expert in American culture, he's also an expert in American law. Isn't the Internet wonderful!?

#233991 03/21/08 07:37 AM
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TJ,

Very nice summary of the issue.

- df

#233992 03/21/08 08:13 AM
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FROM MY POST YESTERDAY AFTERNOON
Quote
Terry,
You are working on the doing the right thing. If Enzo has a problem that he shares with all of us here at PF and you respond by returning his money, no matter what anybody elses' agenda is here on the forum, I think that the two of you have resolved the issue and I believe that your reputation remains intact and your gaurantee stands.

Enzo,
Let us know when the money hits your account and this matter is resolved.
Good Morning, looks it looks like it's been a busy night on this thread but, Enzo, any resolution yet? Terry are you still trying to contact Enzo?


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#233993 03/21/08 08:20 AM
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Well, i have to say. I had a very good conversation with terry on thursday night. He understands my concerns and I understand his. He just can't get the product. He was very honest and forthright with me on the fact. I feel that it was very good of him to at least go out of the way to call me and to address my situation. This forum is great. And, to his credit, he is on this forum monitoring feedback on his company. That says a lot for him. I do have to say though. If it wasn't for this forum I wouldn't have recieved the help I did. Thank you one and all for your feedback and help.

#233994 03/21/08 08:29 AM
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Enzo, are you satisfied with the results?


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#233995 03/21/08 08:30 AM
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Good luck, BrunoEnzo. smile

Nobody has yet given you advice about a possible replacement piano. I guess that's in part because we don't have a good idea as to your priorities and/or desired budget range. On the low end, you could get a Costco Suzuki with a MEANINGFUL 100% satisfaction guarantee that would be low-priced (probably comparable to whatever you were paying for the PSS piano) and might do the trick for you. You gotta keep in mind, though, that this is a forum of piano <s>nuts</s> enthusiasts, so our preference usually runs to pay more for better quality sound.

I hope you have a piano in your living room soon for your daughter. smile

#233996 03/21/08 08:31 AM
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Thankfully, 95%+ cases never see the courtroom due to dialogue that may or may not involve the BBB and attorneys. In this thread we've learned that the internet and a forum may be a more powerful mediator than both.

Going through 6 pages we've learned alot about the "cost" of saving money when buying a piano on the internet:

1. Obvious point that you can't play first to see if you like it.

2. 100% upfront payment (consumer loses leverage for performance incentive).

3. Potential undeterminable delivery date.

4. Qualified refund-ability potentially costing consumer much time and financial stake.

5. Burden of acceptance of piano shifts to consumer as tuning and regulation to taste happen post sale.

6. Less choice of pianos as many manufacturers don't provide for internet sales.

7. The "dealer hassle" not eliminated but shifted from pre-sale to post sale.

Still, it stands to reason that a piano should and could cost less over the internet. Now we have a better understanding of why and therefore can make a more informed decision and weigh the risks and rewards.

#233997 03/21/08 08:57 AM
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Much can be learned by this situation..in the fact that Piano World is a force to be reconized in the realm of pianos ..better than the BBB..
it can make or break a business reputation..
which is great..it keeps people on there toes..
too bad there aren't other products under such scrutiny..hats off to Piano World!! smile

#233998 03/21/08 09:28 AM
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Quote
Originally posted by theJourney:

Customers who still want to risk doing business with a company with these kinds of terms and conditions would be well advised to consider:

A. Requesting the specific serial number of the piano that will be "shipped from one of PSS wholesale warehouses". If they can't identify the goods, it is because the goods aren't there.

B. Specify your own contract terms for ordering from PSS. These should reasonable include:
- paying only a down payment versus the entire amount in advance and the remainder upon delivery;
- specifying a maximum length, mutually acceptable delivery date;
- the ability to cancel your order if the delivery date is not met and for 100% your cash to be returned to you without further penalty within 48 hours.

If they aren't willing to do this, then you know that their story is "too crazy to be true."
Terrific advice, TheJourney! Yes, that's *exactly* what a prospective shopper should do. thumb

#233999 03/21/08 09:35 AM
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Good list fathertopianist. I might add that there are a number of (sometimes hidden) costs as well:

8. Contributing to the long-term decline & cultural impoverishment of your own neighborhood/community when not supporting your local community and economy by buying from a local dealer.

9. Not enjoying and being able to rely in future on a solid, often 10+ year manufacturer level warranty offered by major brands through local dealers versus from the long-distance internet stencil middleman.

10. Not enjoying some of the perks available from traditional retailers to their customers such as advice and consulting at your home, invitations to local functions, concerts, priority access to sales and feasible trade-up opportunities, accountable technical service, deals on tuning subscriptions, free minor repairs during tuning visits, relationships with teachers, opportunities to meet like-minded local people, etc. etc.

There is no free lunch.

#234000 03/21/08 09:38 AM
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I think we are going to see increasing home bias on the part of consumers in the near future, particularly in food. It is my hope that this carries over into pianos and other things.

If you don't support local business you won't have any local businesses.


Michael

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#234001 03/21/08 09:53 AM
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All,
Like it or not internet sales are here to stay. Unlike most of you, and like many people, I do not live in a city or large metropolitan area. Yes, people do live this way. While I would love to play a first tier piano of any brand, financially and geographically this is out of the question.

At least Terry is here and monitoring PF and appears to actually care about his reputation, enough to make things right for Enzo. Maybe your current situation is better than mine but should I decide to purchase a piano on-line, which is much more practical for me, I certainly wouldn't pencil Terry out.


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#234002 03/21/08 10:11 AM
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Interesting discussion! Focused mostly on the letter of the law and totally ignoring the practicality of follow through. Let's see, a $10K piano at most with a 20% restocking fee...that amounts to about $2K in my. The cost of taking this issue to court - across state lines - in hopes of getting a judgment and then trying to collect it...unimaginable.

What I find fascinating is that in 7 pages of postings the facts were never really given until the last couple of posts. He can't get the piano. That says a lot. He doesn't have this particular piano in stock (don't know what make and model it is to make it so rare) so he can't deliver it. It seems to me this could have been handled very easily, "Mr. Customer, I can't get the piano you want for a long time. It may be 62 years before I can get it. Do you still want it or do you want to apply your payment towards another piano?"

The OP never stated what communications had occurred. He just left it to fester like a boil. There were plenty of folks ready and willing to fill in the blanks, speculate, and vilify the business owner without any of the facts. And hence are the downfalls of internet vigilante groups. The customer is NOT always right and there are many customers out there willing to create a scene in hopes of recovering a few nickels or a free lunch.

As for this case. I have had my own business and worked in the corporate world for many years. Although the business owner is free to set his policies (within reason) he must take into account the needs of his customers. I hope in this case the owner will consider this. I understand a lack of willingness to commit to a particular delivery date when ordering from foreign manufactures, but some form of reasonableness needs to prevail. I don't understand why, in this case, the dealer couldn't set terms that are more consumer friendly. I don't know what is acceptable and what is not for a great price but it seems to me that something to the tune of "While we cannot guarantee a specific delivery date, we will do everything within our power to deliver within six months. In the event that we cannot make this commitment, the buyer will be given the option of applying all monies paid to another piano of equal or greater value." If this dealer is turning 1000's of pianos a year, I would then expect him to negotiate similar agreements with his suppliers. And yes, if consumers refuse to accept these terms, Terry would have to change his practices.

I think Terry is a good guy trying to provide a vary valuable service on a high priced item. No doubt he has made lots of enemies in the process. My recommendation is for him to rethink his policies with regards to delivery commitments. It seems to me this is the only part of his business model that his enemies have been able to exploit. Plug the hole and move on doing great things.

As far as "support your local business" is concerned, I don't buy it (no pun intended). I rarely by anything locally other than services that need to be delivered locally. Internet business is capitalism at its finest. It drives efficiency into the market place making it better for everyone. At least IMO.


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#234003 03/21/08 10:13 AM
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Rank Piano Amateur--

"Reasonable" is operative term here but I think "realistic" would apply as well and realistically most lawyers would take one look at Enzo and the situation and after offering him a pelegrino or espresso probably advise him to wait for delivery or cash in his chips(terminate the contract) and move on. They might even offer him a dime to call BBB on his way out.

What a judge would do is anybody's guess, if it went that far. Figuring out real judges is on my list of things to do in next twenty years. Figuring out theoretical judges is much easier.

I think the point some are missing is that a piano with a player(Enzo's piano) is a factory ordered and installed item and extra time must be allowed for installation. PSS clearly states this.
It is not an item sitting in the warehouse.

As for breach of contract. I don't see it. I don't see it now. I don't see it four months from now (assuming PSS is using real lawyers and not the services of Insta-contract). Enzo is merely at the end of the suggested delivery time for a piano without a player system, not a factory installed item. This fact alone would weigh heavily on any adjudication of what is reasonable.

By returning full refund, I don't know if PSS is succumbing to the hysteria of the crowd or doing the right thing or even doing Enzo a favor. PSS's obliged to do nothing except to expedite delivery and if he's waiting on a factory order even that is out of his hands. Unless of course Enzo wishes to terminate the contract then PSS is obliged to pay back 80%. If, in fact, PSS "just can't get the product" then they would be obliged to terminate the contract and refund all the money.

I'm not so sure that all the back-slapping is justified or that Enzo is any better off than he was before posting. Let's say he gets his full refund. Now he's got to start his search all over again, maybe pay 40% more to a B&M for the same piano, and if they don't have the player piano he wants, he still has to wait a couple of months for a factory order . . .


P.S. UCC is little more than anti-Jacobin plot.


Hoaglie

#234004 03/21/08 10:18 AM
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Quote
Originally posted by PhysicsTeacher:
What I find fascinating is that in 7 pages of postings the facts were never really given until the last couple of posts. He can't get the piano. That says a lot. He doesn't have this particular piano in stock (don't know what make and model it is to make it so rare) so he can't deliver it. It seems to me this could have been handled very easily, "Mr. Customer, I can't get the piano you want for a long time. It may be 62 years before I can get it. Do you still want it or do you want to apply your payment towards another piano?"
This makes a lot of sense, but I would offer the amendment that the customer should ALSO be given the choice of getting his/her money back. Otherwise what's to keep Terry or any other internet dealer from engaging in a lucrative bait and switch scheme? (e.g., selling Steinway Ms for $20K; then saying after 6 months that he can't deliver that piano but would be glad to ship the customer an Ellenburg instead).

#234005 03/21/08 10:29 AM
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Originally posted by PhysicsTeacher:
...internet vigilante groups.
What a perfect term.


Quote
Originally posted by PhysicsTeacher:
As far as "support your local business" is concerned, I don't buy it (no pun intended). I rarely by anything locally other than services that need to be delivered locally. Internet business is capitalism at its finest. It drives efficiency into the market place making it better for everyone. At least IMO.
I couldn't agree more. There are very few products left on my list of things to buy locally, and the number is getting smaller as the Internet is getting better. If I go to a local store, I usually have to drive and hunt for a parking space, deal with some incompetent or overbearing salesperson, stand around and wait for help or wait in a checkout line, lug whatever it is home...and if it has to be returned, it's all the same thing in reverse. Order online, I never leave my desk and it's delivered to my house. I don't like it, I send them an email and I get a return airwaybill in the mail and UPS comes to get it.

Granted, big ticket items are not necessarily like that. But they increasingly are becoming like that. I bought my latest car without seeing it in advance (as I did with my piano smile ). About the only thing I care to "buy locally" at this point is a house.

The Internet provides ease of market entry. It takes a lot less capital to build a website than it does to build or lease a B&M store (and staff it, insure it, heat it, etc). Ease of entry increases competition. Increased competition results in more choices and lower prices. And the "geographic market area" for that is unlimited. Wow. Perfect markets. Capitalism at its best.

And from the back of the room, we hear "support local businesses!" Hm. Well, in some ways it is a sad thing to see "communities" altered by the disappearance of small local businesses. But there is very little point in lamenting it. It is happening. The flip side is, the concept of community is becoming (already is) much larger. heck, just have a look at where we are conducting this discussion...and where everyone is sitting as they participate. Get it?

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There is another alternative action that the seller here could take: to "cover." This would mean that the seller finds the same make and model piano somewhere else, buys it and ships it to the buyer. This would mean that the seller would lose money, I expect, but it would make the buyer happy and avoid the necessity on the seller of refunding the purchase price.

It is perfectly true, as Hoaglie states, that legal action is expensive (provided the amounts are too great for small claims court) and generally a pain in the neck (or elsewhere) for everyone involved. Litigation also takes time. It is also public. There are thus many incentives for both sides to figure out a settlement before it gets to that. Are we sure that the buyer here is getting a full refund within an appropriate time frame? If the seller has been unable to get the piano, presumably he still has the money paid by the buyer and should be able to return it without delay. Now that the seller has apparently conceded (according to the buyer) that he cannot get the piano that he "sold" to the buyer, the seller definitely needs to get moving, either by returning the money (with interest) or covering by finding the piano outside his usual sources.

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