Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2.7 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
(ad)
Best of Piano Buyer
 Best of Piano Buyer
(ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
Find a Professional
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers

Advertise on Piano World

(ad)
Accu-Tuner
Sanderson Accu-Tuner
Who's Online Now
140 registered members (AnthonyPaulO, Animisha, AlphaBravoCharlie, Beardog, anotherscott, 7uturu, 40 invisible), 1,518 guests, and 4 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Quick Links to Useful Piano & Music Resources
Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano & Music Accessories
*Live Piano Venues
*Music School Listings
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Directory/Site Map
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords & Scales
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Broken Grand Piano Lids #2336626
10/12/14 03:04 PM
10/12/14 03:04 PM
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 264
Banned
chernobieff Offline OP
Full Member
chernobieff  Offline OP
Full Member

Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 264
Banned
Hello,
Had a situation a few weeks back, I was hired to pick up a grand piano at a household movers warehouse. When I arrived they took me to the piano, and the first thing I noticed was the lid lying on the floor broken in half. At delivery, I immediately showed the customer the lid. At first, (after he called) the movers said I did it, but got caught lying and then took full responsibilty for the broken lid.
This unfortunate situation has lead to many questions.

Can lids REALLY be fixed? Or will they always show even after the best repair.

Can lids be duplicated? And who offers that? What cost? It also seems that this would be the leat desireable thing to do, because some older pianos have exotic veneers(as in this case).

Is it the only recourse to take the mover to court if you disagree on the estimate of the repair? With older pianos I am sure the repair is more than the value of the piano.

Has anyone else out there in PW, have this horrible experience happen to them and are willing to share the process and end result?
Thank you very much.


Chris Chernobieff
www.chernobieff.com
chrisppff@gmail.com
Author of over 500 piano books
Builder of the 7' Tall Mammoth Piano

"I Will Build the Greatest Piano Ever!"
D.H. Baldwin
(ad 800)
PTG Convention 2019
PTG 2019 Convention Tuscon AZ
Re: Broken Grand Piano Lids [Re: chernobieff] #2336630
10/12/14 03:17 PM
10/12/14 03:17 PM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 27,113
Oakland
B
BDB Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
BDB  Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
B

Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 27,113
Oakland
Here is someone who duplicates lids.

Whether the lid can be repaired or not depends on the damage, the finish, and how picky the owner is. There are a lot of things that can be hidden under a coat of black finish, but not so much with wood finishes.


Semipro Tech
Re: Broken Grand Piano Lids [Re: chernobieff] #2336635
10/12/14 03:32 PM
10/12/14 03:32 PM
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 849
Boone, Iowa, USA
C
Chuck Behm, CPT-E Offline
500 Post Club Member
Chuck Behm, CPT-E  Offline
500 Post Club Member
C

Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 849
Boone, Iowa, USA
Dear Chernobieff - An unfortunate situation to be sure. Most likely the wood will need to be stripped and a new finish put on that best matches the finish on the rest of the piano.

The lid most likely broke along a glue joint in the core wood. This happened to me once when I had finished putting on the 3rd coat of polyurethane on a grand, and I still had the lid leaning up against the side of a cabinet. My son, who was 5 at the time, came roaring into the shop on his Big Wheel to make his customary loop around the pianos and back out again. He bumped the lid on his way through and it tipped and hit a workbench just so and broke right along the glue joint.

After I spoke to my son (saying "Jason, you need to go inside now because daddy is very, very upset with you) I surveyed the damage. The two halves of the lid could be put back together, I was sure, and with a little lacquer stick work the damage could be made invisible. The lid would, however, need to be stripped down to bare wood once again so that the finishing process could start over again.

The customer never noticed anything, and I never told them. It really wasn't visible at all. My son (who is now 39) still remembers the incident, and remembers mostly how patient I seemed.

The last thing you would want to do, I would think, is have the lid duplicated. The new veneer would come from different stock. A good quality repair job, on the other hand, would be more likely to blend in, especially if the finish on the rest of the piano is in good condition which would be easier to duplicate than a worn finish.

Just my opinion, however. I'm sure others will have different viewpoints. Chuck Behm


Last edited by Chuck Behm; 10/12/14 03:33 PM.

Tuner/Technician/Rebuilder/Technical Writer
www.pianopromoproductions.com
515-212-9220

"The act of destruction is infinitely easier than the act of creation" - Arthur C. Clarke
Re: Broken Grand Piano Lids [Re: chernobieff] #2337004
10/13/14 04:14 PM
10/13/14 04:14 PM
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 9,230
France
O
Olek Offline
9000 Post Club Member
Olek  Offline
9000 Post Club Member
O

Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 9,230
France
There are special "dowels" in maple leaf shape, installed with a specific handtool to butt joint planks.

An eventual added reinforcement may be used under the lid.. There is one yet usually.
the duplicates I have seen where in MDF. Heavy, not sonorous

Last edited by Olek; 10/13/14 06:24 PM.

Professional of the profession.
Foo Foo specialist
I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
(ad)
Piano & Music Accessories
piano accessories music gifts tuning and moving equipment
Re: Broken Grand Piano Lids [Re: chernobieff] #2337018
10/13/14 04:54 PM
10/13/14 04:54 PM
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 264
Banned
chernobieff Offline OP
Full Member
chernobieff  Offline OP
Full Member

Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 264
Banned
Hi Olek,
I think you mean Biscuts. At least that's what they are called here.


Chris Chernobieff
www.chernobieff.com
chrisppff@gmail.com
Author of over 500 piano books
Builder of the 7' Tall Mammoth Piano

"I Will Build the Greatest Piano Ever!"
D.H. Baldwin
Re: Broken Grand Piano Lids [Re: chernobieff] #2337023
10/13/14 05:01 PM
10/13/14 05:01 PM
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 849
Boone, Iowa, USA
C
Chuck Behm, CPT-E Offline
500 Post Club Member
Chuck Behm, CPT-E  Offline
500 Post Club Member
C

Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 849
Boone, Iowa, USA

Olek - Biscuits would be handy. When I repaired the lid my son broke, I installed dowels much like those that join two leaves of a table together. I didn't have the tools at that time (I was just scraping by) to do anything fancier. The dowels worked, but they were a pain to line up just right. Chuck


Tuner/Technician/Rebuilder/Technical Writer
www.pianopromoproductions.com
515-212-9220

"The act of destruction is infinitely easier than the act of creation" - Arthur C. Clarke
Re: Broken Grand Piano Lids [Re: chernobieff] #2337058
10/13/14 07:44 PM
10/13/14 07:44 PM
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 389
East Nashville,TN Scottsville...
N
Nash. Piano Rescue Offline
Full Member
Nash. Piano Rescue  Offline
Full Member
N

Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 389
East Nashville,TN Scottsville...
Lids are almost always broken because they are left on when moved. If someone puts it on the board wrong and the lid doesn't over hang they tear the hinges out. If it's the other way and strapped in then they snap the lid in half.



J. Christie
Nashville Piano Rescue
www.NashvillePianoRescue.com
East Nashville
Bowling Green, KY
Scottsville KY.
Chamber of Commerce
Member/Sponsor

Putting inspiration in the hands of area musicians
Through restoration/renovation
Re: Broken Grand Piano Lids [Re: chernobieff] #2337344
10/14/14 04:26 PM
10/14/14 04:26 PM
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 9,230
France
O
Olek Offline
9000 Post Club Member
Olek  Offline
9000 Post Club Member
O

Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 9,230
France
Biscuits - I am sorry I do not remind the name it have here , I think Lamello , nothing fancy !

I do not own that machine but other setup to dowel butt joints (and even one to make the trapezoidal assembly named "queue d'aronde" .

Rarely need it it, is part of a global Festool system my neighbor have-I have some accessories and he have others (more than me actually) When needed we use the tools of the neighbor .




Professional of the profession.
Foo Foo specialist
I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
Re: Broken Grand Piano Lids [Re: chernobieff] #2338510
10/17/14 07:16 PM
10/17/14 07:16 PM
Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 377
Florida, Connecticut
gynnis Offline
Full Member
gynnis  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 377
Florida, Connecticut
When I moved the Seiler last time, the lid was removed before the move. Unfortunately, the mover dropped it on the sidewalk and tore off the hinge. Seiler uses MDF (medium density fiberboard) for their lids. The good news is that they are very dimensionally stable and don't have seam lines. This is especially nice for high-gloss polyester finishes. As already mentioned, they don't add anything inspirational to the sound. Also,they do not repair well, especially with high gloss finishes. Best bet is replacement with another MDF lid in this case. They are pretty inexpensive to make. The finish takes some time however.


Seiler 206, Chickering 145, Estey 2 manual reed organ, Fudge clavichord, Zuckerman single harpsichord, Technics P-30, Roland RD-100.
Re: Broken Grand Piano Lids [Re: chernobieff] #2338578
10/18/14 12:15 AM
10/18/14 12:15 AM
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 5,531
Olympia, Washington
D
Del Offline
5000 Post Club Member
Del  Offline
5000 Post Club Member
D

Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 5,531
Olympia, Washington
Many early grand lids used simple 3-ply construction. An edge-glued core (usually of poplar or some such wood) with a face veneer on each side having the grain running in the same direction as the core. Considering their construction these lids held up pretty well as long as the edge-gluing was done well and they were not subjected to weather extremes and shock.

Unfortunately not all glue joints were well made and they do get hit or stressed from time to time and then they can break along the glue joints.

These lids can be repaired with little or no visible signs of repair; I've done several. Biscuits are highly recommended (along with some knowledge of how to use them) to help ensure proper alignment. The separated parts have to be brought together with a near perfect fit or the repair will be clearly visible. Dry fit everything and arrange your clamping schedule before applying any glue to anything. If the dry fit alignment is good and your clamping is done well you should be able to hide the repair fairly easily. There will probably be a few veneer slivers missing but that's a fairly straightforward touchup procedure.

ddf


Delwin D Fandrich
Piano Research, Design & Manufacturing Consultant
ddfandrich@gmail.com
(To contact me privately please use this e-mail address.)

Stupidity is a rare condition, ignorance is a common choice. --Anon

Moderated by  Piano World 

Shop Our Online Store!
Shop Our Store Online
Shop PianoSupplies.com

Did you know Piano World has an online store, and that it's loaded with goodies pianists and music lovers want?
Check it out and place your order.

Special Purchase!
Keyboard and Roses Piano Bench Cushion Keyboard & Roses 14"x30" piano bench cushions Regularly sold for $79 to $100, now only $39. (while supplies last)

(ad)
Pianoteq
PianoTeq Bechstein
(ad)
Faust Harrison Pianos
Faust Harrison 100+ Steinways
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Transporting a grand
by jinorden. 03/25/19 07:07 AM
Ca65 power button problem
by UK Paul UK. 03/25/19 05:33 AM
Canon in D
by Vũ Trần. 03/25/19 03:18 AM
How to polish a piece
by lunobili. 03/24/19 10:53 PM
What's Hot!!
PIANO TEACHERS Please read this!
-------------------
European Tour for Piano Lovers
JOIN US FOR THE TOUR!
--------------------
Posting Pictures on the Forums
-------------------
Forums RULES & HELP
-------------------
ADVERTISE on Piano World
Forum Statistics
Forums41
Topics191,112
Posts2,810,606
Members92,872
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
Please Support Our Advertisers
Faust Harrison 100+ Steinways

Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver

Sweetwater

 Best of Piano Buyer

PianoTeq Bechstein
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers


 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter |


copyright 1997 - 2019 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.2