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Yamaha YDP-V240 vs Casio AP 650 #2336686
10/12/14 06:37 PM
10/12/14 06:37 PM
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BensDream Offline OP
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Hi,

I'm trying to decide on one of the above, and the Yamaha is more expensive of the two. Overall, it seems to be the better piano with many more reverb types and much more potential.

The only thing stopping me is that the sound on the Casio seems to be much better (As seen in this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FSC9Ygzg_VI at around the 3 minute mark).

Would it be possible to customise the Yamaha using the reverb types to make it sound like the open top Casio?

And if you had to choose, which would you pick and why?

Thanks.

EDIT: I think what I mean to say is that the sound quality I've heard on the Casio seems to be much clearer and realistic going by the videos I've seen - Would it be possible to make the Yamaha sound like that by customising the settings?

Last edited by BensDream; 10/12/14 06:48 PM.
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Re: Yamaha YDP-V240 vs Casio AP 650 [Re: BensDream] #2336697
10/12/14 07:27 PM
10/12/14 07:27 PM
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bnolsen Offline
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What other digital pianos have you looked at? What is it you want out of a digital piano? Realistic action? Nice sound? Lots of bells and whistles?

The casio actions are the same across their whole line so from a pure playing perspective the px150 feels the same to your fingers which ends up making the PX850 possibly the best combination of value and sound quality from the casio line

Yamaha seems to vary a bit more with their actions but most of them are too light if you want to use one for grand piano prep. For the price you might pay for a decent yamaha action (highest end clavinova) you may as well buy a roland or kawai as they are a far better value.

Last edited by bnolsen; 10/12/14 07:28 PM.
Re: Yamaha YDP-V240 vs Casio AP 650 [Re: BensDream] #2336755
10/12/14 11:18 PM
10/12/14 11:18 PM
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Charles Cohen Offline
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FWIW:

My quick read of this review:

http://azpianonews.blogspot.ca/2010/01/yamaha-introduces-new-arius-dgx-digital.html

suggests that the Yamaha YDP-V240 is, essentially, a DGX-640 in a cabinet, with better amps and speakers.

The nearest competition is probably (as Tim Praskins says), the Casio PX-780. That is (essentially) a PX-350 in a cabinet, with better amps and speakers. I have just checked the specs on the AP-650, and I can't see much (any?) difference between it, and the PX-780.

The V240 has the "GHS" action (same as P105). I prefer the Casio PX-x50 action, which is what you'd get on the PX-780 and AP-650.

The Casio "effects" are limited: 3 or 4 levels of reverb, 3 or 4 levels of "chorus" -- that's it.

I _think_ the underlying piano sounds on the V240 are one "generation" older than Yamaha's current sounds (e.g., in the DGX-650).

I haven't seen a publicly-available "style editor" for the PX-x50 accompaniment styles. I believe that they _are_ available for the Yamaha. [This is only significant if you expect to be modifying the stock "styles".]

As bnolsen says, it's important to know what you want to do. "Which is better?" can have different answers for different people.

. Charles

PS - bias - I own a PX-350. I run it through Pianoteq.


. Charles
---------------------------
PX-350 / microKorg XL+ / Pianoteq / Lounge Lizard / Korg Wavedrum / EV ZXA1 speaker
Re: Yamaha YDP-V240 vs Casio AP 650 [Re: bnolsen] #2336785
10/13/14 02:50 AM
10/13/14 02:50 AM
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BensDream Offline OP
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Originally Posted by bnolsen
What other digital pianos have you looked at? What is it you want out of a digital piano? Realistic action? Nice sound? Lots of bells and whistles?

The casio actions are the same across their whole line so from a pure playing perspective the px150 feels the same to your fingers which ends up making the PX850 possibly the best combination of value and sound quality from the casio line

Yamaha seems to vary a bit more with their actions but most of them are too light if you want to use one for grand piano prep. For the price you might pay for a decent yamaha action (highest end clavinova) you may as well buy a roland or kawai as they are a far better value.


I would never go for the PX850 over the AP 650, the PX850 is nowhere near comparable.

Originally Posted by Charles Cohen
FWIW:

My quick read of this review:

http://azpianonews.blogspot.ca/2010/01/yamaha-introduces-new-arius-dgx-digital.html

suggests that the Yamaha YDP-V240 is, essentially, a DGX-640 in a cabinet, with better amps and speakers.

The nearest competition is probably (as Tim Praskins says), the Casio PX-780. That is (essentially) a PX-350 in a cabinet, with better amps and speakers. I have just checked the specs on the AP-650, and I can't see much (any?) difference between it, and the PX-780.

The V240 has the "GHS" action (same as P105). I prefer the Casio PX-x50 action, which is what you'd get on the PX-780 and AP-650.

The Casio "effects" are limited: 3 or 4 levels of reverb, 3 or 4 levels of "chorus" -- that's it.

I _think_ the underlying piano sounds on the V240 are one "generation" older than Yamaha's current sounds (e.g., in the DGX-650).

I haven't seen a publicly-available "style editor" for the PX-x50 accompaniment styles. I believe that they _are_ available for the Yamaha. [This is only significant if you expect to be modifying the stock "styles".]

As bnolsen says, it's important to know what you want to do. "Which is better?" can have different answers for different people.

. Charles

PS - bias - I own a PX-350. I run it through Pianoteq.
The DGX-650 doesn't come with any pedals, and the PX-780 doesn't have the same amount of polyphony.

I want to make it clear that I'm not asking for suggestions of a new piano here, I'm just trying to decide between the two I mentioned.

The Yamaha seems to have more features, though the Casio seems to have a better sound system.

I'm asking if it would be possiblel to customise the reverb and DSP on the Yamaha (As it has so many reverb and DSP types) to make it sound just like the Casio in the video I linked.

I'm siding towards the Casio right now, but the lack of reverb and DSP options make me hesitant.

Last edited by BensDream; 10/13/14 02:58 AM.
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Re: Yamaha YDP-V240 vs Casio AP 650 [Re: BensDream] #2336797
10/13/14 04:51 AM
10/13/14 04:51 AM
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nh0cchjp Offline
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What about Roland HP-504 and Korg LP-380?


[Help] Yamaha Arius YDP-181 vs Roland HP-504 or Korg LP-308?? frown
http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/2336762.html#Post2336762
Re: Yamaha YDP-V240 vs Casio AP 650 [Re: BensDream] #2336799
10/13/14 04:59 AM
10/13/14 04:59 AM
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Lester Burnham Offline
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Originally Posted by BensDream
Originally Posted by bnolsen
What other digital pianos have you looked at? What is it you want out of a digital piano? Realistic action? Nice sound? Lots of bells and whistles?

The casio actions are the same across their whole line so from a pure playing perspective the px150 feels the same to your fingers which ends up making the PX850 possibly the best combination of value and sound quality from the casio line

Yamaha seems to vary a bit more with their actions but most of them are too light if you want to use one for grand piano prep. For the price you might pay for a decent yamaha action (highest end clavinova) you may as well buy a roland or kawai as they are a far better value.


I would never go for the PX850 over the AP 650, the PX850 is nowhere near comparable.

Well it's a level down - since it's direct Celviano equivalent is the AP-450.

However, the difference between an AP-450 and a AP-650 isn't as big as the different between, say, and AP-250 and an AP-450.

The AP-450 / PX-850 and AP-650 have the same polyphony (256) and same enhancements in the sound engine (string / sympathetic resonance, lid simulator, other bells and whistles) and the AP-650 has more powerful sound output. So I'd dispute the "nowhere near comparable".

Biggest difference between the PX-850 and the AP-650 (or AP-450) is that it's a more contemporary, smaller form-factor piano / stand combination, whereas the AP-650 is more a traditional type of upright piano cabinet. So the decision for me would be type of cabinet, between PX-850 and AP-650.

Otherwise, there's not a huge difference between PX-850 and AP-650, and compared with the AP-450, the comparison would be purely on type of stand / implementation, rather than functions and features.

Re: Yamaha YDP-V240 vs Casio AP 650 [Re: BensDream] #2336801
10/13/14 05:02 AM
10/13/14 05:02 AM
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bnolsen Offline
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on here it seems conventional wisdom is you buy the best action possible and then add in a software piano if acoustic piano sound quality is what matters most. What you seem to be asking is for someone to help you choose between systems with low end actions but lots and lots of upgrades. For piano simulation the casio action is considered better by most but your price range starts getting you into superior actions.

If you don't care about the action and don't want to deal with a software piano which gives you the greatest flexibility and realistic sound quality then the choice is yours between those models above.

Re: Yamaha YDP-V240 vs Casio AP 650 [Re: bnolsen] #2336818
10/13/14 06:01 AM
10/13/14 06:01 AM
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BensDream Offline OP
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Originally Posted by bnolsen
on here it seems conventional wisdom is you buy the best action possible and then add in a software piano if acoustic piano sound quality is what matters most. What you seem to be asking is for someone to help you choose between systems with low end actions but lots and lots of upgrades. For piano simulation the casio action is considered better by most but your price range starts getting you into superior actions.

If you don't care about the action and don't want to deal with a software piano which gives you the greatest flexibility and realistic sound quality then the choice is yours between those models above.


How you can say the Casio is a low end action is beyond me.

I'm asking for someone to tell me whether it's possible to simulate the sound of the Casio by experimenting with the reverb settings on the Yamaha.

Originally Posted by Lester Burnham
Well it's a level down - since it's direct Celviano equivalent is the AP-450.

However, the difference between an AP-450 and a AP-650 isn't as big as the different between, say, and AP-250 and an AP-450.

The AP-450 / PX-850 and AP-650 have the same polyphony (256) and same enhancements in the sound engine (string / sympathetic resonance, lid simulator, other bells and whistles) and the AP-650 has more powerful sound output. So I'd dispute the "nowhere near comparable".

Biggest difference between the PX-850 and the AP-650 (or AP-450) is that it's a more contemporary, smaller form-factor piano / stand combination, whereas the AP-650 is more a traditional type of upright piano cabinet. So the decision for me would be type of cabinet, between PX-850 and AP-650.

Otherwise, there's not a huge difference between PX-850 and AP-650, and compared with the AP-450, the comparison would be purely on type of stand / implementation, rather than functions and features.


The PX-850 doesn't seem as high end to me - Do you happen to know how well the YDP-V240 compares to the AP-650 by way of making it sound like a real grand piano with the lid removed/open?

Thanks.

Originally Posted by nh0cchjp
What about Roland HP-504 and Korg LP-380?


The Korg seems to be in a quality range closer to the YDP-181 than the YDP-V240, though I'll look into the Roland.

EDIT: It's now looking like a decision between the Casio AP-650, the Yamaha YDP-V240, and the Roland HP-504.

Last edited by BensDream; 10/13/14 06:58 AM.
Re: Yamaha YDP-V240 vs Casio AP 650 [Re: BensDream] #2336843
10/13/14 07:59 AM
10/13/14 07:59 AM
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Originally Posted by BensDream
How you can say the Casio is a low end action is beyond me.


To be pedantic, low/high end refers to price only and Casio only offers entry-level digital pianos. People often correlate quality with price but it's not necessarily the case. Consider how often a high-end BMW is in the shop ... which I unfortunately know from experience.



Originally Posted by BensDream
I'm asking for someone to tell me whether it's possible to simulate the sound of the Casio by experimenting with the reverb settings on the Yamaha.


Unlikely. Every DP manufacturer has their own distinct piano sound. Reverb/chorus won't change the sound that much.



Originally Posted by BensDream
I would never go for the PX850 over the AP 650, the PX850 is nowhere near comparable.


The Casio x50 series -- whether Privia or Celviano -- have the same key action and the same piano sound engine. What you're are buying instead is cabinetry, reverb options, more tones and so on.

Tones
16: PX150, PX750, PX850, AP250, AP450
250: PX350, PX780, PX5S, AP650

Polyphony
256: PX5S, PX850, AP650
128: PX150, PX350, PX750, PX780, AP250, AP450

Lid open/close reverb: PX850, AP450, AP650

Speakers
2x30W: AP650
2x20W: PX780, PX850, AP450
2x8W: PX150, PX350, PX750, AP250
None: PX5S

Cabinet
110-lb wood: AP250, AP450, AP650
82-lb particle board: PX750, PX780, PX850
Stage format: PX150, PX350, PX5S

If you compare the specs in detail, the 3 main differences for PX850 vs AP650 are:
* 30W speakers vs 20W
* Wood cabinet versus particle board
* Extra General MIDI tones for AP650

Most of us though who've been hanging around this forum for a while know you can upgrade almost anything. You want more tones? Hook your computer up and you have access to dozens of free synthesizers/samplers. You want a more realistic piano sound? Dozen different software pianos available although these will cost money. You want more polyphony? An i5/i7 running a software piano can do hundreds of voices. You want better speakers? Get a 1000W speaker system to shake your house down. You want a better cabinet? There are several DIY nuts here who've built their own piano cabinet for their DP (or re-used a baby grand shell) .. but I will admit not everybody is skilled in wood-working to pull this off. The exception to upgradeability is action ... although one courageous poster did modified his Kawai VPC1.

It can be a rat's nest having computers & speakers & wires all over the place -- especially inconvenient to move around. But if a more complex setup is ok, you can get far better piano sound quality at a much lower price. The extra cash for an AP650 or YDP-V240 over a PX150 can pay for quite a bit of extra equipment.

Last edited by MossySF; 10/13/14 08:00 AM.
Re: Yamaha YDP-V240 vs Casio AP 650 [Re: MossySF] #2336844
10/13/14 08:08 AM
10/13/14 08:08 AM
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BensDream Offline OP
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Originally Posted by MossySF
Originally Posted by BensDream
How you can say the Casio is a low end action is beyond me.


To be pedantic, low/high end refers to price only and Casio only offers entry-level digital pianos. People often correlate quality with price but it's not necessarily the case. Consider how often a high-end BMW is in the shop ... which I unfortunately know from experience.



Originally Posted by BensDream
I'm asking for someone to tell me whether it's possible to simulate the sound of the Casio by experimenting with the reverb settings on the Yamaha.


Unlikely. Every DP manufacturer has their own distinct piano sound. Reverb/chorus won't change the sound that much.



Originally Posted by BensDream
I would never go for the PX850 over the AP 650, the PX850 is nowhere near comparable.


The Casio x50 series -- whether Privia or Celviano -- have the same key action and the same piano sound engine. What you're are buying instead is cabinetry, reverb options, more tones and so on.

Tones
16: PX150, PX750, PX850, AP250, AP450
250: PX350, PX780, PX5S, AP650

Polyphony
256: PX5S, PX850, AP650
128: PX150, PX350, PX750, PX780, AP250, AP450

Lid open/close reverb: PX850, AP450, AP650

Speakers
2x30W: AP650
2x20W: PX780, PX850, AP450
2x8W: PX150, PX350, PX750, AP250
None: PX5S

Cabinet
110-lb wood: AP250, AP450, AP650
82-lb particle board: PX750, PX780, PX850
Stage format: PX150, PX350, PX5S

If you compare the specs in detail, the 3 main differences for PX850 vs AP650 are:
* 30W speakers vs 20W
* Wood cabinet versus particle board
* Extra General MIDI tones for AP650

Most of us though who've been hanging around this forum for a while know you can upgrade almost anything. You want more tones? Hook your computer up and you have access to dozens of free synthesizers/samplers. You want a more realistic piano sound? Dozen different software pianos available although these will cost money. You want more polyphony? An i5/i7 running a software piano can do hundreds of voices. You want better speakers? Get a 1000W speaker system to shake your house down. You want a better cabinet? There are several DIY nuts here who've built their own piano cabinet for their DP (or re-used a baby grand shell) .. but I will admit not everybody is skilled in wood-working to pull this off. The exception to upgradeability is action ... although one courageous poster did modified his Kawai VPC1.

It can be a rat's nest having computers & speakers & wires all over the place -- especially inconvenient to move around. But if a more complex setup is ok, you can get far better piano sound quality at a much lower price. The extra cash for an AP650 or YDP-V240 over a PX150 can pay for quite a bit of extra equipment.


While I do agree the "nowhere near comparable" comment might have been over the top, I feel that the 850 is slightly too low end for what I'm looking for.

Ideally I'd like to stay with the Yamaha, Casio, or Roland, though I'm really struggling between the three - The Yamaha is much more feature full, the Casio sounds better to me, and the Roland seems to be a middle ground between the two.

EDIT: It seems that the Roland has a pretty poor stock sound system and now I'm looking at the Kawai CN34. Any suggestions out of the Casio, Yamaha, and Kawai?

Last edited by BensDream; 10/13/14 08:53 AM.
Re: Yamaha YDP-V240 vs Casio AP 650 [Re: BensDream] #2336854
10/13/14 08:55 AM
10/13/14 08:55 AM
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As a further note the local kawai dealership here has a kawai ca95. Opposite to that is a kawai cn34 and near that a casio px750. Next to it is probably the ap650. Next to the cn34 is a kawai cl26. Across the store are the rolands, an hp505 and an f 20 and a v-grand. Somewhere they have a clavinova CVP on consignment...probably late 2000's model.

Absolutely yes, casio has a low end action! But it's a high value action (I recently bought a px150). Yamaha? also low end actions they seem to like to push into their higher end pianos. Not as realistic as the casio actions until you get into big bucks but then any of the above pianos are better choices (maybe not the cl26).

Last edited by bnolsen; 10/13/14 09:11 AM.
Re: Yamaha YDP-V240 vs Casio AP 650 [Re: bnolsen] #2336858
10/13/14 09:13 AM
10/13/14 09:13 AM
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BensDream Offline OP
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Originally Posted by bnolsen
As a further note the local kawai dealership here has a kawai ca95. Opposite to that is a kawai cn34 and near that a casio px750. Next to it is probably the ap650. Next to the cn34 is a kawai cl26. Across the store are the rolands, an hp505 and an f 20 and a v-grand. Somewhere they have a clavinova CVP on consignment...probably late 2000's model.

Absolutely yes, casio has a low end action! But it's a high value action (I recently bought a px150). Yamaha? also low end actions they seem to like to push into their higher end pianos. Not as realistic as the casio actions until you get into big bucks but then any of the above pianos are better choices (maybe not the cl26).


Are you saying that you'd go for the Kawai CN34 over the Casio AP-650, and then that over the Yamaha YDP-V240?

Thanks.

Re: Yamaha YDP-V240 vs Casio AP 650 [Re: BensDream] #2336859
10/13/14 09:14 AM
10/13/14 09:14 AM
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Lester Burnham Offline
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Originally Posted by BensDream
While I do agree the "nowhere near comparable" comment might have been over the top, I feel that the 850 is slightly too low end for what I'm looking for.

Which is fair comment, but when you say you'd like to stick with a list of brands, including Casio, then it's an odd statement, really.

In real terms, there's not loads of difference between the PX-850 and the AP-650. So if the PX-850 is a bit low rent for you, althought he price-tag of the AP-650 is higher, the differences aren't really that much.

As others have mentioned, all x50 Privias and Celvianos use the same action - so higher up in the Casio range, there's no improvement, there.

The sound engine is the same, too - and between the PX-850 and AP-650, all you're realistically getting for the difference is a better / more traditional cabinet, more power output, and maybe some slight bells and whistles.

The biggest jump is from the 150 / 350 / 750 / 780 / 250 to the 450 / 850 and 650. Polyphony doubles (to 256), you get string / sympathetic resonance, key-off simulator - oh and there's that lid simulator thing.

Where I think Casio's strength is, is their x50 action. Common across both ranges - so at the bottom of their range, you're getting something that's really punching above it's weight, and probably better than much else at the entry level.

Personally, I think for a mid-range digital piano, the PX-850 / AP-450 are the gems. You get an awful lot for that - I don't know that I'd personally find the AP-650 that persuasive above those two. If that's still a bit low-rent for you, then either think of controller and software piano, or spend more on the other encumbent brands.

Re: Yamaha YDP-V240 vs Casio AP 650 [Re: Lester Burnham] #2336861
10/13/14 09:22 AM
10/13/14 09:22 AM
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BensDream Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Lester Burnham
Originally Posted by BensDream
While I do agree the "nowhere near comparable" comment might have been over the top, I feel that the 850 is slightly too low end for what I'm looking for.

Which is fair comment, but when you say you'd like to stick with a list of brands, including Casio, then it's an odd statement, really.

In real terms, there's not loads of difference between the PX-850 and the AP-650. So if the PX-850 is a bit low rent for you, althought he price-tag of the AP-650 is higher, the differences aren't really that much.

As others have mentioned, all x50 Privias and Celvianos use the same action - so higher up in the Casio range, there's no improvement, there.

The sound engine is the same, too - and between the PX-850 and AP-650, all you're realistically getting for the difference is a better / more traditional cabinet, more power output, and maybe some slight bells and whistles.

The biggest jump is from the 150 / 350 / 750 / 780 / 250 to the 450 / 850 and 650. Polyphony doubles (to 256), you get string / sympathetic resonance, key-off simulator - oh and there's that lid simulator thing.

Where I think Casio's strength is, is their x50 action. Common across both ranges - so at the bottom of their range, you're getting something that's really punching above it's weight, and probably better than much else at the entry level.

Personally, I think for a mid-range digital piano, the PX-850 / AP-450 are the gems. You get an awful lot for that - I don't know that I'd personally find the AP-650 that persuasive above those two. If that's still a bit low-rent for you, then either think of controller and software piano, or spend more on the other encumbent brands.


Thanks for the information - How would you say the 850/650 compare to Yamaha's YDP-V240 and Kawai's CN34?

Thanks.

Edit: It seems the Yamaha seems pretty average across the board, compared to the Casio which seems to excel in sound quality, whereas the Kawai is the best all-rounder - Would I be correct in thinking this and thinking that the Kawai would be the best choice?

Last edited by BensDream; 10/13/14 09:34 AM.
Re: Yamaha YDP-V240 vs Casio AP 650 [Re: BensDream] #2336868
10/13/14 09:34 AM
10/13/14 09:34 AM
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Lester Burnham Offline
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Originally Posted by BensDream
Originally Posted by Lester Burnham
Originally Posted by BensDream
While I do agree the "nowhere near comparable" comment might have been over the top, I feel that the 850 is slightly too low end for what I'm looking for.

Which is fair comment, but when you say you'd like to stick with a list of brands, including Casio, then it's an odd statement, really.

In real terms, there's not loads of difference between the PX-850 and the AP-650. So if the PX-850 is a bit low rent for you, althought he price-tag of the AP-650 is higher, the differences aren't really that much.

As others have mentioned, all x50 Privias and Celvianos use the same action - so higher up in the Casio range, there's no improvement, there.

The sound engine is the same, too - and between the PX-850 and AP-650, all you're realistically getting for the difference is a better / more traditional cabinet, more power output, and maybe some slight bells and whistles.

The biggest jump is from the 150 / 350 / 750 / 780 / 250 to the 450 / 850 and 650. Polyphony doubles (to 256), you get string / sympathetic resonance, key-off simulator - oh and there's that lid simulator thing.

Where I think Casio's strength is, is their x50 action. Common across both ranges - so at the bottom of their range, you're getting something that's really punching above it's weight, and probably better than much else at the entry level.

Personally, I think for a mid-range digital piano, the PX-850 / AP-450 are the gems. You get an awful lot for that - I don't know that I'd personally find the AP-650 that persuasive above those two. If that's still a bit low-rent for you, then either think of controller and software piano, or spend more on the other encumbent brands.


Thanks for the information - How would you say the 850/650 compare to Yamaha's YDP-V240 and Kawai's CN34?

Thanks.

Not sure I have anything to add, to help you, there.

I've played the Yamaha YDP-162, but not the 240. I thought it OK, but I didn't find the GH action enough of an improvement over the GHS action - truth be told, I found both the YDP-142 and YDP-162 both felt a bit too synthetic in the action - as if there was just something a bit too artificial - which I know sounds an odd thing to say, given they're all digital pianos.

I struggled to put my finger on why - it could be the travel felt shallower than what I'm used to (the Casio action). Neither felt horrible - I think I just found it harder to suspend disbelief, when I was playing either, that it wasn't a real piano, but a digital (more from a tactile perspective, in a music store that wasn't deathly quiet, it was hard to distinguish much between any I've played at the time - I didn't try them with headphones, though).

I have to say, I've got two current Celviano and Privia pianos, and I find the action excellent and natural feeling.

As to the Kawai, I've never played one, yet, but I read a lot of good things. Depending on what's available when I decide I need / want to change, and perhaps spend more than I currently have, I've got my eye on the Kawai CA15.

Although I have to say, at under £1000 (not sure what the dollar equivalent would be) and I'd be delighted with either PX-850, AP-450 or AP-650. I just think if I was spending the money, I doubt I'd find it that persuasive to spend extra going from either 850 / 450 to 650.

Re: Yamaha YDP-V240 vs Casio AP 650 [Re: Lester Burnham] #2336870
10/13/14 09:36 AM
10/13/14 09:36 AM
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BensDream Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Lester Burnham
Originally Posted by BensDream
Originally Posted by Lester Burnham
Originally Posted by BensDream
While I do agree the "nowhere near comparable" comment might have been over the top, I feel that the 850 is slightly too low end for what I'm looking for.

Which is fair comment, but when you say you'd like to stick with a list of brands, including Casio, then it's an odd statement, really.

In real terms, there's not loads of difference between the PX-850 and the AP-650. So if the PX-850 is a bit low rent for you, althought he price-tag of the AP-650 is higher, the differences aren't really that much.

As others have mentioned, all x50 Privias and Celvianos use the same action - so higher up in the Casio range, there's no improvement, there.

The sound engine is the same, too - and between the PX-850 and AP-650, all you're realistically getting for the difference is a better / more traditional cabinet, more power output, and maybe some slight bells and whistles.

The biggest jump is from the 150 / 350 / 750 / 780 / 250 to the 450 / 850 and 650. Polyphony doubles (to 256), you get string / sympathetic resonance, key-off simulator - oh and there's that lid simulator thing.

Where I think Casio's strength is, is their x50 action. Common across both ranges - so at the bottom of their range, you're getting something that's really punching above it's weight, and probably better than much else at the entry level.

Personally, I think for a mid-range digital piano, the PX-850 / AP-450 are the gems. You get an awful lot for that - I don't know that I'd personally find the AP-650 that persuasive above those two. If that's still a bit low-rent for you, then either think of controller and software piano, or spend more on the other encumbent brands.


Thanks for the information - How would you say the 850/650 compare to Yamaha's YDP-V240 and Kawai's CN34?

Thanks.

Not sure I have anything to add, to help you, there.

I've played the Yamaha YDP-162, but not the 240. I thought it OK, but I didn't find the GH action enough of an improvement over the GHS action - truth be told, I found both the YDP-142 and YDP-162 both felt a bit too synthetic in the action - as if there was just something a bit too artificial - which I know sounds an odd thing to say, given they're all digital pianos.

I struggled to put my finger on why - it could be the travel felt shallower than what I'm used to (the Casio action). Neither felt horrible - I think I just found it harder to suspend disbelief, when I was playing either, that it wasn't a real piano, but a digital (more from a tactile perspective, in a music store that wasn't deathly quiet, it was hard to distinguish much between any I've played at the time - I didn't try them with headphones, though).

I have to say, I've got two current Celviano and Privia pianos, and I find the action excellent and natural feeling.

As to the Kawai, I've never played one, yet, but I read a lot of good things. Depending on what's available when I decide I need / want to change, and perhaps spend more than I currently have, I've got my eye on the Kawai CA15.

Although I have to say, at under £1000 (not sure what the dollar equivalent would be) and I'd be delighted with either PX-850, AP-450 or AP-650. I just think if I was spending the money, I doubt I'd find it that persuasive to spend extra going from either 850 / 450 to 650.


I agree that there are lot of good things I've read about the Kawai - Do you know how the CN34 compares to the CA15? They seem to be in the same band, by the looks of it.

I also made an edit to my previous post just as you replied, not sure if you noticed that!

Thanks.

Re: Yamaha YDP-V240 vs Casio AP 650 [Re: BensDream] #2336872
10/13/14 09:42 AM
10/13/14 09:42 AM
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Lester Burnham Offline
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Originally Posted by BensDream
Originally Posted by Lester Burnham
Originally Posted by BensDream
Originally Posted by Lester Burnham
Originally Posted by BensDream
While I do agree the "nowhere near comparable" comment might have been over the top, I feel that the 850 is slightly too low end for what I'm looking for.

Which is fair comment, but when you say you'd like to stick with a list of brands, including Casio, then it's an odd statement, really.

In real terms, there's not loads of difference between the PX-850 and the AP-650. So if the PX-850 is a bit low rent for you, althought he price-tag of the AP-650 is higher, the differences aren't really that much.

As others have mentioned, all x50 Privias and Celvianos use the same action - so higher up in the Casio range, there's no improvement, there.

The sound engine is the same, too - and between the PX-850 and AP-650, all you're realistically getting for the difference is a better / more traditional cabinet, more power output, and maybe some slight bells and whistles.

The biggest jump is from the 150 / 350 / 750 / 780 / 250 to the 450 / 850 and 650. Polyphony doubles (to 256), you get string / sympathetic resonance, key-off simulator - oh and there's that lid simulator thing.

Where I think Casio's strength is, is their x50 action. Common across both ranges - so at the bottom of their range, you're getting something that's really punching above it's weight, and probably better than much else at the entry level.

Personally, I think for a mid-range digital piano, the PX-850 / AP-450 are the gems. You get an awful lot for that - I don't know that I'd personally find the AP-650 that persuasive above those two. If that's still a bit low-rent for you, then either think of controller and software piano, or spend more on the other encumbent brands.


Thanks for the information - How would you say the 850/650 compare to Yamaha's YDP-V240 and Kawai's CN34?

Thanks.

Not sure I have anything to add, to help you, there.

I've played the Yamaha YDP-162, but not the 240. I thought it OK, but I didn't find the GH action enough of an improvement over the GHS action - truth be told, I found both the YDP-142 and YDP-162 both felt a bit too synthetic in the action - as if there was just something a bit too artificial - which I know sounds an odd thing to say, given they're all digital pianos.

I struggled to put my finger on why - it could be the travel felt shallower than what I'm used to (the Casio action). Neither felt horrible - I think I just found it harder to suspend disbelief, when I was playing either, that it wasn't a real piano, but a digital (more from a tactile perspective, in a music store that wasn't deathly quiet, it was hard to distinguish much between any I've played at the time - I didn't try them with headphones, though).

I have to say, I've got two current Celviano and Privia pianos, and I find the action excellent and natural feeling.

As to the Kawai, I've never played one, yet, but I read a lot of good things. Depending on what's available when I decide I need / want to change, and perhaps spend more than I currently have, I've got my eye on the Kawai CA15.

Although I have to say, at under £1000 (not sure what the dollar equivalent would be) and I'd be delighted with either PX-850, AP-450 or AP-650. I just think if I was spending the money, I doubt I'd find it that persuasive to spend extra going from either 850 / 450 to 650.


I agree that there are lot of good things I've read about the Kawai - Do you know how the CN34 compares to the CA15? They seem to be in the same band, by the looks of it.

I'm no real expert on them, but Kawai James who posts here, works for Kawai, I think, so he'd be able to add something, I'm sure.

My reason for being interested in the CA15 (which I understand isn't sold in all regions) is I was enquiring, a while back, as to which cabinet digital piano in Kawai's line-up was equivalent on action, to the VPC1 - as personally, I don't want to get into controllers and software pianos.

Originally Posted by BensDream
I also made an edit to my previous post just as you replied, not sure if you noticed that!

I didn't, but have now!

Personally, Kawai, and perhaps Roland is where I've been looking at, brand-wise, for when I decide to move on and spend more than I've currently got - but I'm not in any huge hurry to do that, at present.

Will you get chance to play the models you're interested in? If so, I'd try and do so able to listen to their speakers, as well as how they sound through headphones.

I suspect there's no true horrible choices above a certain price-point, so it's going to come down to what you find feels and sounds (on balance) to be most appealling, I'd guess.

Re: Yamaha YDP-V240 vs Casio AP 650 [Re: Lester Burnham] #2336873
10/13/14 09:49 AM
10/13/14 09:49 AM
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BensDream Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Lester Burnham
Originally Posted by BensDream
Originally Posted by Lester Burnham
Originally Posted by BensDream
Originally Posted by Lester Burnham
Originally Posted by BensDream
While I do agree the "nowhere near comparable" comment might have been over the top, I feel that the 850 is slightly too low end for what I'm looking for.

Which is fair comment, but when you say you'd like to stick with a list of brands, including Casio, then it's an odd statement, really.

In real terms, there's not loads of difference between the PX-850 and the AP-650. So if the PX-850 is a bit low rent for you, althought he price-tag of the AP-650 is higher, the differences aren't really that much.

As others have mentioned, all x50 Privias and Celvianos use the same action - so higher up in the Casio range, there's no improvement, there.

The sound engine is the same, too - and between the PX-850 and AP-650, all you're realistically getting for the difference is a better / more traditional cabinet, more power output, and maybe some slight bells and whistles.

The biggest jump is from the 150 / 350 / 750 / 780 / 250 to the 450 / 850 and 650. Polyphony doubles (to 256), you get string / sympathetic resonance, key-off simulator - oh and there's that lid simulator thing.

Where I think Casio's strength is, is their x50 action. Common across both ranges - so at the bottom of their range, you're getting something that's really punching above it's weight, and probably better than much else at the entry level.

Personally, I think for a mid-range digital piano, the PX-850 / AP-450 are the gems. You get an awful lot for that - I don't know that I'd personally find the AP-650 that persuasive above those two. If that's still a bit low-rent for you, then either think of controller and software piano, or spend more on the other encumbent brands.


Thanks for the information - How would you say the 850/650 compare to Yamaha's YDP-V240 and Kawai's CN34?

Thanks.

Not sure I have anything to add, to help you, there.

I've played the Yamaha YDP-162, but not the 240. I thought it OK, but I didn't find the GH action enough of an improvement over the GHS action - truth be told, I found both the YDP-142 and YDP-162 both felt a bit too synthetic in the action - as if there was just something a bit too artificial - which I know sounds an odd thing to say, given they're all digital pianos.

I struggled to put my finger on why - it could be the travel felt shallower than what I'm used to (the Casio action). Neither felt horrible - I think I just found it harder to suspend disbelief, when I was playing either, that it wasn't a real piano, but a digital (more from a tactile perspective, in a music store that wasn't deathly quiet, it was hard to distinguish much between any I've played at the time - I didn't try them with headphones, though).

I have to say, I've got two current Celviano and Privia pianos, and I find the action excellent and natural feeling.

As to the Kawai, I've never played one, yet, but I read a lot of good things. Depending on what's available when I decide I need / want to change, and perhaps spend more than I currently have, I've got my eye on the Kawai CA15.

Although I have to say, at under £1000 (not sure what the dollar equivalent would be) and I'd be delighted with either PX-850, AP-450 or AP-650. I just think if I was spending the money, I doubt I'd find it that persuasive to spend extra going from either 850 / 450 to 650.


I agree that there are lot of good things I've read about the Kawai - Do you know how the CN34 compares to the CA15? They seem to be in the same band, by the looks of it.

I'm no real expert on them, but Kawai James who posts here, works for Kawai, I think, so he'd be able to add something, I'm sure.

My reason for being interested in the CA15 (which I understand isn't sold in all regions) is I was enquiring, a while back, as to which cabinet digital piano in Kawai's line-up was equivalent on action, to the VPC1 - as personally, I don't want to get into controllers and software pianos.

Originally Posted by BensDream
I also made an edit to my previous post just as you replied, not sure if you noticed that!

I didn't, but have now!

Personally, Kawai, and perhaps Roland is where I've been looking at, brand-wise, for when I decide to move on and spend more than I've currently got - but I'm not in any huge hurry to do that, at present.

Will you get chance to play the models you're interested in? If so, I'd try and do so able to listen to their speakers, as well as how they sound through headphones.

I suspect there's no true horrible choices above a certain price-point, so it's going to come down to what you find feels and sounds (on balance) to be most appealling, I'd guess.


I just looked into the CN34 a bit more and it seems it doesn't include auto-accompaniment, which was something I'd have liked to have used. The ES7 seems to have it, though the software isn't as fully-featured in general. That pretty much rules out Kawai for me and leaves me with the Yamaha or the Casio. I also ruled out Roland earlier as they seem to have pretty weak sound by stock, which I'm not sure I'd accept considering the price.

I'm not sure I'll have a chance to play them as there are no stores near me that seem to stock them, though it's a tie between the YDP-V240 and the AP 650 at the moment - The AP 650 seems to sound much better, though I'm not sure if it has on-screen notation like the YDP-V240 - Does anyone from Casio happen to frequent the forums?

Thanks.

Re: Yamaha YDP-V240 vs Casio AP 650 [Re: BensDream] #2336875
10/13/14 09:52 AM
10/13/14 09:52 AM
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Lester Burnham Offline
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Originally Posted by BensDream
I'm not sure I'll have a chance to play them as there are no stores near me that seem to stock them, though it's a tie between the YDP-V240 and the AP 650 at the moment - The AP 650 seems to sound much better, though I'm not sure if it has on-screen notation like the YDP-V240 - Does anyone from Casio happen to frequent the forums?

Thanks.

I think Mike Martin occasionally posts here - you might be able to PM him?

Re: Yamaha YDP-V240 vs Casio AP 650 [Re: Lester Burnham] #2336878
10/13/14 09:56 AM
10/13/14 09:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Lester Burnham
Originally Posted by BensDream
I'm not sure I'll have a chance to play them as there are no stores near me that seem to stock them, though it's a tie between the YDP-V240 and the AP 650 at the moment - The AP 650 seems to sound much better, though I'm not sure if it has on-screen notation like the YDP-V240 - Does anyone from Casio happen to frequent the forums?

Thanks.

I think Mike Martin occasionally posts here - you might be able to PM him?


Thanks, done! To anyone else reading this thread, feel free to comment if you happen to know whether the AP 650 has on-screen notation, or whether either of these pianos have outstanding features that make one worth buying over the other.

Last edited by BensDream; 10/13/14 10:14 AM.
Re: Yamaha YDP-V240 vs Casio AP 650 [Re: BensDream] #2336886
10/13/14 10:25 AM
10/13/14 10:25 AM
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Alexander Borro Offline
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Some advice from a 4 months player, so with that in mind take it as you wish.

If you are mainly interested in just the piano sound I would not pick the AP-650 over the AP-450, apart for the 2x20W speakers versus the 2-30w,( I tried both when I bought) for home use both are plenty loud enough, the pianos sounds and actions are identical.

If you like the extra bells and whistles and extra non piano sounds and rhythms the AP-650 would of course be worth considering, but it is the those extra bells and whistles you are giving your cash towards when buying the 650 over the 450, for me I was only interested in the piano part anyway so it was an easy choice.

Coming back to being able to massage the sound further, you mention could you get the sounds with more reverb options in the Casio like the Yamaha.

You can,

I use the audio line out of the piano into my PC system with an audio interface and speakers or headphones, this then opens up a whole new world of options of being able to mix the sound using software. apply EQ settings, reverb, whatever, however that does mean you are either restricted to headphones or a speaker system connected to your PC. Of course hardware mixers are an option too.

It is worth noting that the AP-450 ( or the PX-850, the exact same pianos bar the cabinet ) has no audio line in feature. This is where the AP-650 or some of the other Casio models may be more desirable because you can feed the sound back into through the piano speakers, if you so wish, the AP-650 can do this, but the AP450/PX-850 cannot.

All that said, while the piano speaker are not that bad, I ( would say adequate is not a bad description ) a good external speaker system will be better anyway.

I use some old vintage speakers and a a Hifi amp and the sound is much fuller through those.

I use a software piano now as well, the Ivory Synthogy American D Steinway. The sound samples on the Casio are also that of a Steinway. With that the setup I use now when not using headphones is I layer a bit of the piano sound own speakers with its own sound and have the software piano sound coming out of my sound system with speakers setup to my left and right. This really gives me a wonderful feeling of being enveloped in sound. smile

When I bought months ago I did not even know about software pianos or that such a whole world existed. If you already have a half decent PC with say I3 processor or better you don't have to spend a lot of money extra on a very good software piano ( all typically in the sort of 100 - 200 pound range ) IMHO the software pianos compared to digital sound pianos in this price range I find that software pianos is much of an improvement in sound and flexibility/ configurability.

I don't regret buying the console I have, in fact it is nice being able to layer native piano sounds with that of the software piano with speakers, all that said it is a bit of a luxury.

If on a budget and I were to do it all again, I may well have bought a slab/stage piano like the Casio PX-350, or PX-150 because it still has the same action compared to my current Celviano AP-450, and this would have saved me over 300 pounds or more, enough to buy the software, and had I not owned speakers enough cash to buy some half decent studio monitors speakers too. I use headphones 90% of the time anyway either using the piano sounds or the soft piano ( as and when the mood takes me want to use the nicer sounds from the software piano, but when in serious practice mode I often still use the native piano sound too ).

So ... If you already have a decent sound system, a good PC handy as was the case with me, what I would do today doing it all again ?

If I had around 1000 pounds in my pocket I'd buy the kawai VPC1 midi controller, you'd buy yourself a top of the line piano action, with that use a software piano like the one I have, painoteq or one of the many software option out there.

The Kawai action on the VPC1 would be superior to any of the pianos you mention for that money you are thinking of spending. That is not to say I don't like the Casio action, I like it very much, and for sure I preferred it to all the yamaha actions in that price range when I tried, but that was just my personal preference.

Before making you final plunge, and depending what PC and sound system you already have the software route could end up costing a quite a bit extra or not much extra at all.

I would research the world of piano software and see the other options out there.

I would also recommend this channel and with some useful videos. Pianomanchuck covers a lot of useful stuff on software pianos, the Casio models of which he is a big fan, and Kawai pianos too.

http://www.youtube.com/user/PianoManChuck

All the best. Hope I didn't confuse it further smile


Last edited by Alexander Borro; 10/13/14 10:29 AM.

Selftaught since June 2014.
Books: Barratt classic piano course bk 1,2,3. Humphries Piano handbook, various...
Kawai CA78, Casio AP450 & software pianos.
[Linked Image] 12x ABF recitals.
My struggles: https://soundcloud.com/alexander-borro
Re: Yamaha YDP-V240 vs Casio AP 650 [Re: Alexander Borro] #2336890
10/13/14 10:30 AM
10/13/14 10:30 AM
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BensDream Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Alexander Borro
Some advice from a 4 months player, so with that in mind take it as you wish.

If you are mainly interested in just the piano sound I would not pick the AP-650 over the AP-450, apart for the 2x20W speakers versus the 2-30w,( I tried both when I bought) for home use both are plenty loud enough, the pianos sounds and actions are identical.

If you like the extra bells and whistles and extra non piano sounds and rhythms the AP-650 would of course be worth considering, but it is the those extra bells and whistles you are giving your cash towards when buying the 650 over the 450, for me I was only interested in the piano part anyway so it was an easy choice.

Coming back to being able to massage the sound further, you mention could you get the sounds with more reverb options in the Casio like the Yamaha.

You can,

I use the audio line out of the piano into my PC system with an audio interface and speakers or headphones, this then opens up a whole new world of options of being able to mix the sound using software. apply EQ settings, reverb, whatever, however that does mean you are either restricted to headphones or a speaker system connected to your PC. Of course hardware mixers are an option too.

It is worth noting that the AP-450 ( or the PX-850, the exact same pianos bar the cabinet ) has no audio line in feature. This is where the AP-650 or some of the other Casio models may be more desirable because you can feed the sound back into through the piano speakers, if you so wish, the AP-650 can do this, but the AP450/PX-850 cannot.

All that said, while the piano speaker are not that bad, I ( would say adequate is not a bad description ) a good external speaker system will be better anyway.

I use some old vintage speakers and a a Hifi amp and the sound is much fuller through those.

I use a software piano now as well, the Ivory Synthogy American D Steinway. The sound samples on the Casio are also that of a Steinway. With that the setup I use now when not using headphones is I layer a bit of the piano sound own speakers with its own sound and have the software piano sound coming out of my sound system with speakers setup to my left and right. This really gives me a wonderful feeling of being enveloped in sound. smile

When I bought months ago I did not even know about software pianos or that such a whole world existed. If you already have a half decent PC with say I3 processor or better you don't have to spend a lot of money extra on a very good software piano ( all typically in the sort of 100 - 200 pound range ) IMHO the software pianos compared to digital sound pianos in this price range I find that software pianos is much of an improvement and sound and flexibility/ configurability.

I don't regret buying the console I have, in fact it is nice being able to layer native piano sounds with that of the software piano with speakers, all that said it is a bit of a luxury.

If on a budget and I were to do it all again, I may well have bought a slab/stage piano like the Casio PX-350, or PX-150 because it still has the same action compared to my current Celviano AP-450, and this would have saved me over 300 pounds or more, enough to buy the software, and had I not owned speakers enough cash to buy some half decent studio monitors speakers too. I use headphones 90% of the time anyway either using the piano sounds or the soft piano ( as and when the mood takes me want to use the nicer sounds from the software piano, but when in serious practice mode I often still use the native piano sound too ).

So ... If you already have a decent sound system, a good PC handy as was the case with me, what I would do today doing it all again ?

If I had around 1000 pounds in my pocket I'd buy the kawai VPC1 midi controller, you'd buy yourself a top of the line piano action, with that use a software piano like the one I have, painoteq or one of the many software option out there.

The Kawai action on the VPC1 would be superior to any of the pianos you mention for that money you are thinking of spending. That is not to say I don't like the Casio action, I like it very much, and for sure I preferred it to all the yamaha actions in that price range when I tried, but that was just my personal preference.

Before making you final plunge, and depending what PC and sound system you already have the software route could end up costing a quite a bit extra or not much extra at all.

I would research the world of piano software and see the other options out there.

I would also recommend this channel and with some useful videos. Pianomanchuck covers a lot of useful stuff on software pianos, the Casio models of which he is a big fan, and Kawai pianos too.

http://www.youtube.com/user/PianoManChuck

All the best. Hope I didn't confuse it further smile



Thank you for the information, very helpful!

I'm not sure you understood my question about the reverb options in the Casio, though - I was wondering if it would be possible to make the Yamaha sound like the Casio's open lid setting by using the reverb and DSP options on the Yamaha, as opposed to changing the sound on the Casio to make it sound like the Yamaha.

Thanks!

Re: Yamaha YDP-V240 vs Casio AP 650 [Re: BensDream] #2336891
10/13/14 10:38 AM
10/13/14 10:38 AM
Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 1,299
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Alexander Borro Offline
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Alexander Borro  Offline
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UK
Originally Posted by BensDream
Originally Posted by Alexander Borro
Some advice from a 4 months player, so with that in mind take it as you wish.

If you are mainly interested in just the piano sound I would not pick the AP-650 over the AP-450, apart for the 2x20W speakers versus the 2-30w,( I tried both when I bought) for home use both are plenty loud enough, the pianos sounds and actions are identical.

If you like the extra bells and whistles and extra non piano sounds and rhythms the AP-650 would of course be worth considering, but it is the those extra bells and whistles you are giving your cash towards when buying the 650 over the 450, for me I was only interested in the piano part anyway so it was an easy choice.

Coming back to being able to massage the sound further, you mention could you get the sounds with more reverb options in the Casio like the Yamaha.

You can,

I use the audio line out of the piano into my PC system with an audio interface and speakers or headphones, this then opens up a whole new world of options of being able to mix the sound using software. apply EQ settings, reverb, whatever, however that does mean you are either restricted to headphones or a speaker system connected to your PC. Of course hardware mixers are an option too.

It is worth noting that the AP-450 ( or the PX-850, the exact same pianos bar the cabinet ) has no audio line in feature. This is where the AP-650 or some of the other Casio models may be more desirable because you can feed the sound back into through the piano speakers, if you so wish, the AP-650 can do this, but the AP450/PX-850 cannot.

All that said, while the piano speaker are not that bad, I ( would say adequate is not a bad description ) a good external speaker system will be better anyway.

I use some old vintage speakers and a a Hifi amp and the sound is much fuller through those.

I use a software piano now as well, the Ivory Synthogy American D Steinway. The sound samples on the Casio are also that of a Steinway. With that the setup I use now when not using headphones is I layer a bit of the piano sound own speakers with its own sound and have the software piano sound coming out of my sound system with speakers setup to my left and right. This really gives me a wonderful feeling of being enveloped in sound. smile

When I bought months ago I did not even know about software pianos or that such a whole world existed. If you already have a half decent PC with say I3 processor or better you don't have to spend a lot of money extra on a very good software piano ( all typically in the sort of 100 - 200 pound range ) IMHO the software pianos compared to digital sound pianos in this price range I find that software pianos is much of an improvement and sound and flexibility/ configurability.

I don't regret buying the console I have, in fact it is nice being able to layer native piano sounds with that of the software piano with speakers, all that said it is a bit of a luxury.

If on a budget and I were to do it all again, I may well have bought a slab/stage piano like the Casio PX-350, or PX-150 because it still has the same action compared to my current Celviano AP-450, and this would have saved me over 300 pounds or more, enough to buy the software, and had I not owned speakers enough cash to buy some half decent studio monitors speakers too. I use headphones 90% of the time anyway either using the piano sounds or the soft piano ( as and when the mood takes me want to use the nicer sounds from the software piano, but when in serious practice mode I often still use the native piano sound too ).

So ... If you already have a decent sound system, a good PC handy as was the case with me, what I would do today doing it all again ?

If I had around 1000 pounds in my pocket I'd buy the kawai VPC1 midi controller, you'd buy yourself a top of the line piano action, with that use a software piano like the one I have, painoteq or one of the many software option out there.

The Kawai action on the VPC1 would be superior to any of the pianos you mention for that money you are thinking of spending. That is not to say I don't like the Casio action, I like it very much, and for sure I preferred it to all the yamaha actions in that price range when I tried, but that was just my personal preference.

Before making you final plunge, and depending what PC and sound system you already have the software route could end up costing a quite a bit extra or not much extra at all.

I would research the world of piano software and see the other options out there.

I would also recommend this channel and with some useful videos. Pianomanchuck covers a lot of useful stuff on software pianos, the Casio models of which he is a big fan, and Kawai pianos too.

http://www.youtube.com/user/PianoManChuck

All the best. Hope I didn't confuse it further smile



Thank you for the information, very helpful!

I'm not sure you understood my question about the reverb options in the Casio, though - I was wondering if it would be possible to make the Yamaha sound like the Casio's open lid setting by using the reverb and DSP options on the Yamaha, as opposed to changing the sound on the Casio to make it sound like the Yamaha.

Thanks!


Yes, re-reading your post I misread that, oops .. my bad, working and posting at the same time is a bad idea smile


Selftaught since June 2014.
Books: Barratt classic piano course bk 1,2,3. Humphries Piano handbook, various...
Kawai CA78, Casio AP450 & software pianos.
[Linked Image] 12x ABF recitals.
My struggles: https://soundcloud.com/alexander-borro
Re: Yamaha YDP-V240 vs Casio AP 650 [Re: Alexander Borro] #2336893
10/13/14 10:41 AM
10/13/14 10:41 AM
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 18
B
BensDream Offline OP
Junior Member
BensDream  Offline OP
Junior Member
B

Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 18
Originally Posted by Alexander Borro
Originally Posted by BensDream
Originally Posted by Alexander Borro
Some advice from a 4 months player, so with that in mind take it as you wish.

If you are mainly interested in just the piano sound I would not pick the AP-650 over the AP-450, apart for the 2x20W speakers versus the 2-30w,( I tried both when I bought) for home use both are plenty loud enough, the pianos sounds and actions are identical.

If you like the extra bells and whistles and extra non piano sounds and rhythms the AP-650 would of course be worth considering, but it is the those extra bells and whistles you are giving your cash towards when buying the 650 over the 450, for me I was only interested in the piano part anyway so it was an easy choice.

Coming back to being able to massage the sound further, you mention could you get the sounds with more reverb options in the Casio like the Yamaha.

You can,

I use the audio line out of the piano into my PC system with an audio interface and speakers or headphones, this then opens up a whole new world of options of being able to mix the sound using software. apply EQ settings, reverb, whatever, however that does mean you are either restricted to headphones or a speaker system connected to your PC. Of course hardware mixers are an option too.

It is worth noting that the AP-450 ( or the PX-850, the exact same pianos bar the cabinet ) has no audio line in feature. This is where the AP-650 or some of the other Casio models may be more desirable because you can feed the sound back into through the piano speakers, if you so wish, the AP-650 can do this, but the AP450/PX-850 cannot.

All that said, while the piano speaker are not that bad, I ( would say adequate is not a bad description ) a good external speaker system will be better anyway.

I use some old vintage speakers and a a Hifi amp and the sound is much fuller through those.

I use a software piano now as well, the Ivory Synthogy American D Steinway. The sound samples on the Casio are also that of a Steinway. With that the setup I use now when not using headphones is I layer a bit of the piano sound own speakers with its own sound and have the software piano sound coming out of my sound system with speakers setup to my left and right. This really gives me a wonderful feeling of being enveloped in sound. smile

When I bought months ago I did not even know about software pianos or that such a whole world existed. If you already have a half decent PC with say I3 processor or better you don't have to spend a lot of money extra on a very good software piano ( all typically in the sort of 100 - 200 pound range ) IMHO the software pianos compared to digital sound pianos in this price range I find that software pianos is much of an improvement and sound and flexibility/ configurability.

I don't regret buying the console I have, in fact it is nice being able to layer native piano sounds with that of the software piano with speakers, all that said it is a bit of a luxury.

If on a budget and I were to do it all again, I may well have bought a slab/stage piano like the Casio PX-350, or PX-150 because it still has the same action compared to my current Celviano AP-450, and this would have saved me over 300 pounds or more, enough to buy the software, and had I not owned speakers enough cash to buy some half decent studio monitors speakers too. I use headphones 90% of the time anyway either using the piano sounds or the soft piano ( as and when the mood takes me want to use the nicer sounds from the software piano, but when in serious practice mode I often still use the native piano sound too ).

So ... If you already have a decent sound system, a good PC handy as was the case with me, what I would do today doing it all again ?

If I had around 1000 pounds in my pocket I'd buy the kawai VPC1 midi controller, you'd buy yourself a top of the line piano action, with that use a software piano like the one I have, painoteq or one of the many software option out there.

The Kawai action on the VPC1 would be superior to any of the pianos you mention for that money you are thinking of spending. That is not to say I don't like the Casio action, I like it very much, and for sure I preferred it to all the yamaha actions in that price range when I tried, but that was just my personal preference.

Before making you final plunge, and depending what PC and sound system you already have the software route could end up costing a quite a bit extra or not much extra at all.

I would research the world of piano software and see the other options out there.

I would also recommend this channel and with some useful videos. Pianomanchuck covers a lot of useful stuff on software pianos, the Casio models of which he is a big fan, and Kawai pianos too.

http://www.youtube.com/user/PianoManChuck

All the best. Hope I didn't confuse it further smile



Thank you for the information, very helpful!

I'm not sure you understood my question about the reverb options in the Casio, though - I was wondering if it would be possible to make the Yamaha sound like the Casio's open lid setting by using the reverb and DSP options on the Yamaha, as opposed to changing the sound on the Casio to make it sound like the Yamaha.

Thanks!


Yes, re-reading your post I misread that, oops .. my bad, working and posting at the same time is a bad idea smile


Haha, no problem - do you happen to know if it's a possibility in the Yamaha? Looking at the user manual it seems there's no lid simulation.

Re: Yamaha YDP-V240 vs Casio AP 650 [Re: BensDream] #2336894
10/13/14 10:42 AM
10/13/14 10:42 AM
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 3,560
Portugal
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toddy Offline
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toddy  Offline
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Portugal
I was wondering if it would be possible to make the Yamaha sound like the Casio's open lid setting by using the reverb and DSP options on the Yamaha, as opposed to changing the sound on the Casio to make it sound like the Yamaha.

It's unlikely that you could get a Yamaha to sound like a Casio, or vice versa. The subtle differences will be deep in the fingerprint of the sample set. Of course you can use eq and reverb compression and countless other processors to make modifications, but the tonal quality will remain embedded in the sound. I think someone already made a similar point a few posts above.

If you like the sound of Casio, go for Casio - they certainly have the best keyboard action in the price band we're talking about, I think.

Last edited by toddy; 10/13/14 10:46 AM.

Roland HP 302 / Samson Graphite 49 / Akai EWI

Reaper / Native Instruments K9 ult / ESQL MOR2 Symph Orchestra & Choirs / Lucato & Parravicini , trumpets & saxes / Garritan CFX lite / Production Voices C7 & Steinway D compact

Focusrite Saffire 24 / W7, i7 4770, 16GB / MXL V67g / Yamaha HS7s / HD598
Re: Yamaha YDP-V240 vs Casio AP 650 [Re: toddy] #2336897
10/13/14 10:45 AM
10/13/14 10:45 AM
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BensDream Offline OP
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BensDream  Offline OP
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Originally Posted by toddy
I was wondering if it would be possible to make the Yamaha sound like the Casio's open lid setting by using the reverb and DSP options on the Yamaha, as opposed to changing the sound on the Casio to make it sound like the Yamaha.

It's unlikely that you could get a Yamaha to sound like a Casio, or vice versa. The subtle differences will be deep in the footprint of the sample set. Of course you can use eq and reverb compression and countless other processors to make modifications, but the tonal quality will remain embedded in the sound. I think someone already made a similar point a few posts above.

If you like the sound of Casio, go for Casio - they certainly have the best keyboard action in the price band we're talking about, I think.


I agree, and I am swayed more towards the Casio, though the Yamaha has so many reverb levels and DSP levels, and I was thinking maybe they could be a huge help. Do you think that having so many reverb and DSP levels will actually make a difference, or would you be able to replicate that number of effects by changing some settings on the Casio?

Thanks.

Re: Yamaha YDP-V240 vs Casio AP 650 [Re: BensDream] #2336901
10/13/14 10:48 AM
10/13/14 10:48 AM
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 7,130
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peterws Offline
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Northern England.
You asked for a straight choice with, presumably, reasons. I would go for the Casio AP 650 at the moment. Reasons.

1 whist both have multiple instruments for multi track recording the AP 650 has 16 tracks against the Yamaha's 6. But the Y's is much much easier to record on.

2 The Casio looks better and has better keyboard action in most peoples opinion. It has other variable piano based features which may help to augment the sound whereas the Yamaha has lots of reverb, chorus etc which will help somewhat.

3 as has been pointed out, the Y is a cabinet version of the DGX640 at over twice the price. I played one and liked it greatly. But I did own the dgx 630 at the time. . .

4 Quite simply it will not hold its price. You may find the Casio doesn't either. . .but I believe the C is cheaper.

Last edited by peterws; 10/13/14 10:51 AM.

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Re: Yamaha YDP-V240 vs Casio AP 650 [Re: peterws] #2336902
10/13/14 10:52 AM
10/13/14 10:52 AM
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BensDream Offline OP
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BensDream  Offline OP
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Originally Posted by peterws
You asked for a straight choice with, presumably, reasons. I would go for the Casio AP 650 at the moment. Reasons.

1 whist both have multiple instruments for multi track recording the AP 650 has 16 tracks against the Yamaha's 6. But the Y's is much much easier to record on.

2 The Casio looks better and has better keyboard action in most peoples opinion. It has other variable piano based features which may help to augment the sound whereas the Yamaha has lots of reverb, chorus etc which will help somewhat.

3 as has been pointed out, the Y is a cabinet version of the DGX640 at over twice the price. I played one and liked it greatly. But I did own the dgx 630 at the time. . .

4 Quite simply it will not hold its price. You may find the Casio doesn't either. . .


My reason for wanting to make a straight choice is that I've already done my research and don't want to be snowed under with choices again - I, too, am swaying towards the AP 650.

Regarding your first point, accessibility isn't really a problem, and I'd definitely choose the Casio over the Yamaha despite the Casio being harder to record on.

2. I've heard that the keyboard action is much better, though I'm not sure how much the reverb and DSP will help on the Yamaha, would you be able to clarify how it changes the sound and whether it's possible to set up a similar configuration with a Casio despite having fewer reverb and DSP settings?

3/4. I agree, the Yamaha doesn't seem to be much of a premium model despite being £300 more than the Casio. The Casio I'm looking at seems to be a top-of-the-line Casio as opposed to an entry level Yamaha. You did mention here, though, that you liked the Yamaha greatly - Would you say you liked it more than the AP 650 or just that you liked it in general?

Many thanks.

Re: Yamaha YDP-V240 vs Casio AP 650 [Re: BensDream] #2336904
10/13/14 10:54 AM
10/13/14 10:54 AM
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toddy Offline
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It's difficult to answer that question without hands on experience. Can you try them out in a shop? That would be the best way to get a feeling for the two instruments. How much is it important for you to be able to change the sounds?

The general principal is to get a sound and, more important still, feel that you like and go with that. I think both the Casio and Yamaha DPs you're looking at have a fair amount of variables. For me, when I want to have more control over the sound, I go to the computer where there is infinite flexibility. The DP is good for a set of sounds, very good piano(s) and rudimentary reverb.

If you want more onboard control, you can of course get it on a DP, but it's then fixed and turns out more expensive than running it from a computer (or device) these days.


Last edited by toddy; 10/13/14 10:55 AM.

Roland HP 302 / Samson Graphite 49 / Akai EWI

Reaper / Native Instruments K9 ult / ESQL MOR2 Symph Orchestra & Choirs / Lucato & Parravicini , trumpets & saxes / Garritan CFX lite / Production Voices C7 & Steinway D compact

Focusrite Saffire 24 / W7, i7 4770, 16GB / MXL V67g / Yamaha HS7s / HD598
Re: Yamaha YDP-V240 vs Casio AP 650 [Re: toddy] #2336906
10/13/14 10:58 AM
10/13/14 10:58 AM
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BensDream Offline OP
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Originally Posted by toddy
It's difficult to answer that question without hands on experience. Can you try them out in a shop? That would be the best way to get a feeling for the two instruments. How much is it important for you to be able to change the sounds?

The general principal is to get a sound and, more important still, feel that you like and go with that. I think both the Casio and Yamaha DPs you're looking at have a fair amount of variables. For me, when I want to have more control over the sound, I go to the computer where there is infinite flexibility. The DP is good for a set of sounds, very good piano(s) and rudimentary reverb.

If you want more onboard control, you can of course get it on a DP, but it's then fixed and turns out more expensive than running it from a computer (or device) these days.



I won't be able to test them in-store, though I'm practically set on the Casio now due to the better on-board sound and key action.

It's fairly important for me to be able to change the sounds in order to fit a number of different styles and environments.

Possibly slightly off-topic, though would you be able to recommend any computer software I could use to change the way the Casio sounds? I'm running an i7 4770k with 16gb RAM and a 780Ti, so I hopefully shouldn't run into any quality/processing issues.

Edit: I just remembered that the Casio may not have on-screen notation, in which case my mind isn't set as much as I thought it was!

Edit 2: It seems the Casio doesn't have on-screen notation - Which leads me onto the question of "Would it be possible to link it up to my computer and use an application to show me on my computer monitor which notes are being played, as well as have a similar set-up to the Yamaha where it has a "play-along" feature? i.e. The lesson won't progress until you've hit the notes. If so, which program could I use for that?"

Last edited by BensDream; 10/13/14 11:08 AM.
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