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#2333322 10/02/14 10:57 AM
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Beemer Offline OP
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I have not yet set my hands on a Kawai but intend to buy one soon.

I understand what let-off is on my acoustic and understand that it has been added to certain Kawai digital pianos to add realism.

What I don't understand is that from the animated illustration of the digital let-off action although the effect occurs on key depression (as intended) it looks that it occurs also on the key release. This is not what happens on my acoustic.

Maybe someone can say if they can feel the let-off on release?

Ian


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Originally Posted by Beemer
I have not yet set my hands on a Kawai but intend to buy one soon.

I understand what let-off is on my acoustic and understand that it has been added to certain Kawai digital pianos to add realism.

What I don't understand is that from the animated illustration of the digital let-off action although the effect occurs on key depression (as intended) it looks that it occurs also on the key release. This is not what happens on my acoustic.

Maybe someone can say if they can feel the let-off on release?

Ian


No, you can't feel it on release on any digital I've played.

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Imperceptible to me upon GF key release on my MP11. If it is in fact there, I cannot tell at all even when consciously trying to verify this.

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Originally Posted by kanadajin
Imperceptible to me upon GF key release on my MP11. If it is in fact there, I cannot tell at all even when consciously trying to verify this.


See here for let-off catch. As shown the catch is hit on both directions:

http://www.kawaimp.com/mp11/detail/touch/

One screen page down and then "click here".

Ian

Last edited by Beemer; 10/02/14 02:05 PM.

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Letoff does not exist on any digital pianos, except for those few with real acoustic-style actions (the Avant Grands, their predecessors, and perhaps a scant few others).

The let-off simulation is not let-off at all. It's just a clicker device.

There is no let-off. There is no escapement.
Originally Posted by ando
Originally Posted by Beemer
I understand what let-off is on my acoustic and understand that it has been added to certain Kawai digital pianos to add realism. ...
Maybe someone can say if they can feel the let-off on release?
No, you can't feel it on release on any digital I've played.

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I see what you mean, Beemer, it does "catch" in both directions, up and down. However I also note that the catch"lip" appears to be asymmetrical (cross-section); perhaps this is why it would be less apparent upon the release of the key, as it would seem that perhaps less friction would be generated (?!?)

This simulated effect is already quite subtle upon depressing the key, I would say more so than on my grand piano, so if there is in fact even less of this catch effect on the release, I can see why I cannot perceive it at all.

And yes of course, there is no actual "escapement" of the weighted pseudo-hammer.


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In my world with a CA95, the LetOff is very subtle on the down, and non existan on the up ... After all, as your finger is releasing the key, it, the key, is not resisting on the up as it would on the down.


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Beemer, as others have noted, the let-off simulation is not perceivable when a key is released.

If anything, we emphasised the action animations on the MP website to make the let-off mechanism a little more visible.

Kind regards,
James
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Originally Posted by Beemer
I have not yet set my hands on a Kawai but intend to buy one soon.


Am I the only one that sees this as an absurd statement?

It might very well be the best choice - but to form the intention to buy before trying is just daft.

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Originally Posted by EssBrace
Originally Posted by Beemer
I have not yet set my hands on a Kawai but intend to buy one soon.


Am I the only one that sees this as an absurd statement?

It might very well be the best choice - but to form the intention to buy before trying is just daft.


I own an acoustic piano and a Yamaha Tyros 5/76. I also use Pianoteq and know not of any keyboard that has had universal acclaim for being the current best weighted action available as the Kawai VPC-1 or MP11 models.

If you think it absurd you are entitled to your opinion but posting it here is provocative. There are many here like me who are several hundred miles from dealers stocking these specific products.

Oh nearly forgot, yes I did buy the Tyros 5 without having played it. It was I believe the first one into the UK. I also bought the first UK available Kurzweil K1200 Pro 88key again without having played it. Maybe I was influenced by Billy Joel's extensive use of the same keyboard.

Ian

Last edited by Beemer; 10/03/14 07:44 AM.

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Originally Posted by Kawai James
Beemer, as others have noted, the let-off simulation is not perceivable when a key is released.

If anything, we emphasised the action animations on the MP website to make the let-off mechanism a little more visible.

Kind regards,
James
x


James,

Thanks for your comment. I was a little surprised to see the "release" let-off so clearly when I had not noticed it in other videos. You will be aware of those users who have stripped the let-off feature from their VPC-1. I can only assume that they do not play an acoustic and so found the digital let-off mechanism a distraction.

Great MP11 site! Very different to typical web layouts and enjoyable to navigate.

That said I'm still hoping for a VPC-2 smile

Ian


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The let-off simulation on the MP11 is not distracting at all. I find it feeling pretty authentic, actually.

As for buying without testing first, I agree it's best to try it out first, but I do understand hat is not possible. It was not possible for me when I bought the VPC1 or the MP11. I ended up returning the VPC1 simply because of the need for a different setup for teaching, not because of a dissatisfaction in the action. So, it does sometimes work out if you aren't able to test it first. smile


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Originally Posted by Beemer
If you think it absurd you are entitled to your opinion but posting it here is provocative. There are many here like me who are several hundred miles from dealers stocking these specific products.

Oh nearly forgot, yes I did buy the Tyros 5 without having played it. It was I believe the first one into the UK. I also bought the first UK available Kurzweil K1200 Pro 88key again without having played it. Maybe I was influenced by Billy Joel's extensive use of the same keyboard.

Ian


Well, you are in Scotland but claiming to be "several hundred miles" from dealers etc. A slight exaggeration perhaps?

I see that you are well versed in taking a leap of faith without trying first so good for you. If you are in the market for a car I have a mint condition Morris Marina here in Suffolk. You are too far away to test drive it first but take it from me it is the best thing of its type. £10,000 and it's yours. I accept Paypal.

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Originally Posted by EssBrace
If you are in the market for a car I have a mint condition Morris Marina here in Suffolk. You are too far away to test drive it first but take it from me it is the best thing of its type. £10,000 and it's yours. I accept Paypal.

A picture always helps, Steve.

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Originally Posted by EssBrace
Originally Posted by Beemer
I have not yet set my hands on a Kawai but intend to buy one soon.


Am I the only one that sees this as an absurd statement?

It might very well be the best choice - but to form the intention to buy before trying is just daft.

I have purchased most of the instruments I've owned over the past few years without trying them first. I don't recommend it to others because you risk being seriously disappointed, particularly as any piano (digital included) is subject to very personal preference. However, if you're prepared to use the time and money, that you might have spent driving from store to store, testing a piano in your own home and then returning it or reselling it if it doesn't meet expectations, you get a much better opportunity to really delve into the instrument and test it with your own peripherals. Plenty of initial online research with a highly critical ear is likely to reduce (but not eliminate) the failure rate of this approach.

Additionally, as we all know, Kawais are notoriously difficult to hunt down in the wild, and in certain areas Rolands are pretty scarce, too.

And even with the ability to try out a model in-store pre-purchase, it is still not a sure thing. A certain member of this forum has been through at least some sort of Clavinova, a Roland V-Piano and FP-7F, a Nord Piano, and a Kawai MP10 before settling on a Yamaha CP1. He shall remain nameless unless he cares to hold up his hand! wink

As to the OP's question about let-off, I too have never noticed the effect on key return, either on Roland or Kawai. I agree with others who state that it is also a pretty subtle effect on key depression. I actually don't feel that having it or not having it makes any difference to my playing. Of much more importance to me is the speed of key return, the sensor response, and the marriage between action and sound engine.

Last edited by voxpops; 10/03/14 11:40 AM.

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Originally Posted by EssBrace
Originally Posted by Beemer
If you think it absurd you are entitled to your opinion but posting it here is provocative. There are many here like me who are several hundred miles from dealers stocking these specific products.

Oh nearly forgot, yes I did buy the Tyros 5 without having played it. It was I believe the first one into the UK. I also bought the first UK available Kurzweil K1200 Pro 88key again without having played it. Maybe I was influenced by Billy Joel's extensive use of the same keyboard.

Ian


Well, you are in Scotland but claiming to be "several hundred miles" from dealers etc. A slight exaggeration perhaps?

I see that you are well versed in taking a leap of faith without trying first so good for you. If you are in the market for a car I have a mint condition Morris Marina here in Suffolk. You are too far away to test drive it first but take it from me it is the best thing of its type. £10,000 and it's yours. I accept Paypal.


As I can find. One dealer only within 150 miles stocks a VPC-1 and none have MP11 stock. So yes a slight exaggeration of mileage.

Sorry I already have two cars. One of 220BHP and one of 168BHP. Surprise, surprise I did road test both before purchase, but then neither has 88 keys smile

Ian


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Originally Posted by voxpops
Originally Posted by EssBrace
If you are in the market for a car I have a mint condition Morris Marina here in Suffolk. You are too far away to test drive it first but take it from me it is the best thing of its type. £10,000 and it's yours. I accept Paypal.

A picture always helps, Steve.

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Wonderful, thanks Vox. Couldn't you find a picture in the classic British Leyland sh*t brown?!

I agree entirely with your rationale about being prepared to buy and later sell if it doesn't work out, especially if you can mentally offset the loss against what a more comprehensive search in the first place may have cost in time/fuel etc. And yes, you got me! It is I who have owned all those pianos and more. Some tried in advance and one or two bought without prior trial.

To the OP I would also warn that whilst I agree the Kawai wooden action is very good and taking all things into consideration probably the best DP action that doesn't mean that it will be right for everyone. Absolute 'bestness' might not tick your personal boxes. I had a Kawai MP10 and whilst in many ways it was a joy I have to admit I found it somewhat mushy at the bottom of the key travel. By that I mean mushy in a not-very-piano-like way. The better Roland action feels subjectively to me to be a little quicker, crisper and more agile, as does the action in my Yamaha CP1 and, for that matter, the plastic Kawai action (which is excellent).

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Essbrace,

Thanks for the hint. I do have a Roland dealer near me so I will try out their RD-800 keyboards out.

BTW Not to labour on our discussion (too much smile ) but in view of your Suffolk location I should have mentioned that over my long years bought two Suffolk Colt lawnmowers without first trying them out in the showroom smile smile

Ian


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Originally Posted by Beemer
Essbrace,

Thanks for the hint. I do have a Roland dealer near me so I will try out their RD-800 keyboards out.

BTW Not to labour on our discussion (too much smile ) but in view of your Suffolk location I should have mentioned that over my long years bought two Suffolk Colt lawnmowers without first trying them out in the showroom smile smile

Ian


Yes, made in Stowmarket.

Having read my last post I think it may be a bit ambiguous. When I've written "the better Roland action...", I mean the actions they fit to their upper range DPs, not that their action is better than the Kawais. Although you would do well to check the Roland RD 800 out. I've not played it myself but I think there are some minor improvements claimed for the action in terms of quietness at least.

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My Two Cents

"Try before you buy ... "

There may be an assumption here, that, the person buying, has enough skill and ability to comprehend the features they want. In my case, I had zero ability to play Mary Had A Little Lamb and I knew little of a Kawai CA93, and only what Yuki Wada demonstrated on a Yamaha 380. After I saw the dealer's model actions of both, and upon my sister's recommendation after she played each a fair amount of time, I went with the Kawai.


Jon ...

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