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Pascal Rogé quits Monza competition jury
#2333758 10/03/14 02:59 PM
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Does anyone happen to have seen or heard any of the performances in this competition? Pascal seems pretty outraged at the alleged "dishonesty and fraud" along with the lack of transparency that he's encountered at Monza, though I'm not sure about the wisdom of his Mafia speculation. Wasn't there also another case recently of a juror speaking out against jury favoritism?
http://slippedisc.com/2014/10/star-pianist-quits-competition-jury-over-dishonesty-and-fraud/


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Re: Pascal Rogé quits Monza competition jury
SiFi #2333761 10/03/14 03:11 PM
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Did you notice that PW's own Jeffrey Biegel is one of the jurors? I wonder what he thinks of the situation.

Regards,


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Re: Pascal Rogé quits Monza competition jury
SiFi #2333766 10/03/14 03:21 PM
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An Italian won this two years ago - Scipione Sangiovanni. He qualified for the Van Cliburn last year, but was eliminated in the first round (I placed him near the bottom of the starting line-up, for what it's worth).

There was a cluster of Italian winners/medalists in the 90's, not that we should read anything into that of course:

2000
STEFANIA CAFARO (ITALIA) First prize
RYOKO HISAYAMA (GIAPPONE) Second prize
ANNA VINNISKAYA (RUSSIA) Third prize

1998
MASSIMILIANO FERRATI (ITALIA) First prize
MICHAIL DANTSHENKO (UCRAINA) Second prize
ANTONIO BALDI (ITALIA) Third prize

1996
FRANCESCO CIPOLLETTA (ITALIA) First prize
YORCK-HARDY RITTNER (GERMANIA) Second prize
VALERIU ROGACEV (ROMANIA) Third prize

1994
ALEKSANDAR SERDAR (YUGOSLAVIA) First prize
LEONARDO GRINT (ITALIA) Second prize
DANIIL KOPILOV (RUSSIA) Third prize

1992
NON ASSEGNATO () First prize
CRISTIANO BURATO (ITALIA) Second prize
JURA MARGULIS (GERMANIA) Third prize

1990
GIAMPAOLO STUANI (ITALIA) First prize
BALASZ SZOKOLAY (UNGHERIA) Second prize
SERGEI REZNIKOV (U.R.S.S.) Third prize
OLEG MARSHEV (U.R.S.S.) Third prize


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Re: Pascal Rogé quits Monza competition jury
BruceD #2333767 10/03/14 03:24 PM
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Originally Posted by BruceD
Did you notice that PW's own Jeffrey Biegel is one of the jurors? I wonder what he thinks of the situation.

V. interesting. Maybe someone who knows Jeffrey well enough could message him to find out?


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Re: Pascal Rogé quits Monza competition jury
SiFi #2333786 10/03/14 04:52 PM
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The 'dishonesty and fraud' Mr Rogé seems to have detected is not at all surprising, in a lot of competitions it's more rule than exception alas. This also applies to sports in general, competitions are musical sport-events, it's all a bit too much of speed/endurance/force/looks, there are still great pianists who never won a competition and still are among the best.


Longtemps, je me suis couché de bonne heure, but not anymore!
Re: Pascal Rogé quits Monza competition jury
SiFi #2333800 10/03/14 05:35 PM
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From afar, it's impossible to differentiate between nationalistic fraud, as he claims, and simple sour grapes because his preferred candidates did not make it. The history of corruption and nationalism in judging (ice skating, anyone) inclines me to believe that piano judging can be just as biased and influenced, but I have no way of knowing short of seeing evidence of money payments or clear evidence of arm-twisting.

Re: Pascal Rogé quits Monza competition jury
BruceD #2333803 10/03/14 05:38 PM
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Originally Posted by BruceD
Did you notice that PW's own Jeffrey Biegel is one of the jurors? I wonder what he thinks of the situation.

Regards,


Vladimir Ashkenazy's son is also a judge.

Re: Pascal Rogé quits Monza competition jury
SiFi #2333806 10/03/14 05:46 PM
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Moral: ignore the competitions and go listen to concerts smile smile

(you get better, more experienced artists at those anyway)


Heather W. Reichgott, piano

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Re: Pascal Rogé quits Monza competition jury
hreichgott #2333836 10/03/14 07:44 PM
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Originally Posted by hreichgott
Moral: ignore the competitions and go listen to concerts smile smile

(you get better, more experienced artists at those anyway)

In a perfect world, yes, the cream would rise to the top through natural selection as opposed to the manipulation and shenanigans that produce so many bizarre results in competitions. (Sorry about the mixed metaphor.) However, after doing the "Complete Cliburn" last year, I can guiltily attest to the attraction of the piano competition as blood sport. I enjoyed every minute of it. This was partly because of the sheer quality and quantity of the talent that was concentrated into a single event, but the unwholesome "is this one going to screw up?" and "what will the jurors think of so-and-so?" aspects are difficult to ignore.

I do think there are ways to reform competitions and try to eliminate abuse (e.g., no jurors with participating students), though overcoming the inertia of the current status quo, especially in the relatively tiny and close-knit community that comprises the professional music universe these days, would need some serious muscle and a level of cooperation among the anointed scions of the musical aristocracy that I don't think we'll ever see. It's a bit like the medical profession: "if I had to go through so much pain, then these young complainers are going to have to go through it too." I've heard competitions described as a necessary evil, but I actually don't think they have to be necessarily evil. In any event, I don't think they're going away anytime soon - the laws of unnatural selection will continue to prevail.

Last edited by SiFi; 10/03/14 11:23 PM.

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Re: Pascal Rogé quits Monza competition jury
SiFi #2333854 10/03/14 09:53 PM
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Pascal's opinion and description of his favorite pianists completely contradicts what Fleisher said in the interview posted in the other thread- which I disagreed with every aspect of

Re: Pascal Rogé quits Monza competition jury
SiFi #2333862 10/03/14 11:28 PM
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Antony - What's the other thread? I have seeked and have not found.


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Re: Pascal Rogé quits Monza competition jury
SiFi #2333864 10/03/14 11:53 PM
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If you "sought" it you may have found it
It's from the interview thread with Fleisher. Coincidentally, I just stumble on this Horowitz documentary of a studio recording of a Mozart concerto. Fleisher talks about how Horowitz cannot play classical era repertoire, which I disagree because I think his Mozart is wonderful. In the documentary Horowitz says Mozart is his "#1 composer". He also quoted someone as saying you should play Mozart like Chopin and chopin like Mozart which contradicts Fleisher. The juror who left the competition gave the highest artistic praise to his favorite pianists which also contradicts Fleisher because Fleisher bemoans the lack of understanding of today's pianists.

Fleisher also has a cliched and stereotypical view of composers and their nationality ie "German" music

Re: Pascal Rogé quits Monza competition jury
SiFi #2334053 10/04/14 03:47 PM
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Could be worth mentioning that the competition has given a response to Roge's reaction and sudden departure:

From the Jury members and Committee of the XXIII Rina Sala Gallo International Piano Competition

Reply to Mr. Rogé’s personal opinion on the facts at Rina Sala Gallo in Monza (“full account of the fixing at Monza”):

Monza, Oct. 4th 2014 – The international piano competition “Rina Sala Gallo”’s is a highly respected, beloved and historical institution whose aim isn’t to spot international stars but rather to help deserving musicians pursue their effort in building an international carrier, at an early stage.
Its functioning and rules are published on the competition’s web site:

http://www.concorsosalagallo.it/ind...cle&id=170&Itemid=11&lang=it

Its juries and winners since 1970 are also published on the site, and their reputation is the best guarantee of this competitions’ reliability.

The competition jurors are chosen by the Artistic Director (this year, pianist Vovka Ashkenazy from Russia) on an international basis and enjoyed till now an excellent personal and professional reputation: Jeffrey Biegel (USA) Nora Doallo (Argentina), Pascal Rogé (France), Graham Scott (UK), Oleg Marshev (Russia), Roberto Prosseda (Italy), plus the head of jury M° Risalti. Apart from M° Prosseda, only M° Riccardo Risaliti comes from Italy.

Mr. Rogé has read, understood and undersigned the competition’s voting system and its regulation and, by accepting to become member of this jury, he has implicitly recognized its integrity. But now, he accuses his colleagues jurors of cheating.

As it is written in the regulation, our voting system, and therefore each of the candidates’ scores is the mathematical average of the jury member’s votes, as collected and processed by an electronic device. The jury’s President (this year, Riccardo Risaliti) could not – never – have modified such data, because it is read only and controlled by our ICT staff. Accusing him to “juggle” with votes is a very serious accuse that should have been demonstrated before discrediting publicly the competition and his colleagues work. The others jurors that were in fact, as Mr. Rogé states, surprised by the marks obtained by candidates might also have remembered that those were the average of seven, singular, personal, very subjective, sometimes idiosyncratic points of view on a somewhat subjective matter as is music and interpretation. The fact is that votes (the average of the jurors’ judgements obtained during a week, in three different challenges) have proved to be constant, in time.

Furthermore, the allegations of “mafia” with regards to the competition are of such severity as to be totally inadmissible. It is clear that none of the persons (Mr. Rogé together with other bloggers) that used the term “mafia” with regards to our institution have the slightest idea of what “mafia” is and how improper is the use of such term in this context. We assume that these persons base their judgements on cliché and platitudes with the same superficiality with which they take their selfies.

The post’s title highly discredits the Rina Sala Gallo, well before the final verdict on this affair has passed. And before that, facts must be ascertained and the truth must come to light. And it will, by publishing on the competition’s web site each of the jury’s members votes.
We would have appreciate that Mr. Rogé reciprocates Rina Sala Gallo competition respect for being an esteemed colleague and such an interesting interpreter of Debussy and Ravel. He could have explained why he didn’t agree on numbers, for instance, before leaving without notice the competition, yesterday evening, and discrediting it internationally.

Our opinion is that Mr. Rogé’s is only a somehow clumsy move to gain publicity from the occasion. But none the less, the Rina Sala Gallo Association will undertake legal actions against him and those who will discredit our reputation with more, absurd “mafia” allegations.

Each of the jurors’ votes, on each challenge, for each candidate will be published on the competition’s web site at the end of the competition, as to preserve their tranquillity during this delicate, final, stage.

That will be an occasion for Mr. Rogé to check if he is as good at mathematics as he is in piano. At this point, we think that an official, public, and international apology would be appropriate.

http://www.concorsosalagallo.it/
- See more at: http://slippedisc.com/2014/10/star-...shonesty-and-fraud/#sthash.DyMVnbhk.dpuf

Re: Pascal Rogé quits Monza competition jury
SiFi #2334067 10/04/14 04:32 PM
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One problem with a "mathematical average" system is that it can easily be steered by one or two judges who vote really low on certain contestants in order to ensure that they are eliminated, even if the ones eliminated score highest on a majority of ballots.

Mr. Roge's accusations are indeed serious and unsubstantiated. The response by the competition is similarly uninformative and histrionic.

It's good that the jurors' votes will ultimately be published. One hopes they won't be massaged ex post.

Re: Pascal Rogé quits Monza competition jury
Piano*Dad #2334078 10/04/14 05:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Piano*Dad
One problem with a "mathematical average" system is that it can easily be steered by one or two judges who vote really low on certain contestants in order to ensure that they are eliminated, even if the ones eliminated score highest on a majority of ballots.

Mr. Roge's accusations are indeed serious and unsubstantiated. The response by the competition is similarly uninformative and histrionic.

It's good that the jurors' votes will ultimately be published. One hopes they won't be massaged ex post.

I agree with all this. Both sides have succeeded in debasing themselves and their reputations in the course of this debacle. In particular, Rogé's "Mafia" references are unconscionable.


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Re: Pascal Rogé quits Monza competition jury
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One of the Italian jurors has also spoken out now:

http://slippedisc.com/2014/10/monza-a-maligned-juror-responds/


"I read the statement that Pascal Rogé published on Slipped Disc about the Monza International Piano Competition and the various comments. Since I was sitting on the same jury, and my name has been tarnished by his declarations, I am here giving my point of view on what happened. Being one of only two (not three as he writes) Italian jurors, I am, of course, deeply offended by the equating “Italians” with “Mafia”, as Mr. Rogé presents it in his statement and I am quite surprised that many comments on Slipped Disc are supporting this idea, without knowing what is going on, without knowing Mr. Rogé’s marks or other jurors’ marks, and without having heard the competitors.

I did not have the pleasure to talk with Mr. Rogé at all during the whole competition. The rules of the Monza Competition, which every juror had to accept, including Mr. Rogé, do not allow jurors to share thoughts about the competitors during the competition, to avoid any influence on the freedom and independence of judgement of each member of the jury, and to keep a serene atmosphere for the competitors. So, the declarations that Mr. Rogé wrote about his judgement of the competitors before the end of the competition were against the rules that he had to follow and were a bad influence on the three finalists who read them before their final stage.

Since Mr. Rogé did not know my judgements, I am surprised that he could write anything regarding them and particularly something so outrageous, alluding to possible connections between the two Italian jurors (me and Mr. Risaliti) and the Mafia. Talking about “mafia” and “dishonesty” just basing this accusation on personal tastes and suppositions, without knowing “who is doing what”, is not something that I can approve of, and does not give much strength to Mr. Rogé’s reliability.

On the fact, written in a comment that I read in Slipped Disc, that Mr. Rogé is “not only the sole trustworthy judge on that jury, but probably the only true and qualified professional musician (one who is still actively and constantly concertizing)”, well, it is enough to google the jurors’s names (including Mr. Rogé) to check the real situation.

As in any piano competition, the final result is an average of each juror’s marks. So it is absolutely normal that the results do not correspond to the point of view of a single jury member. In the case of Monza competition, the three finalists were not exactly the ones that I would have liked, as it will be possible to see soon from the jurors’ marks that will be published on the website of the competition: http://www.concorsosalagallo.it

It is quite astonishing to notice that the marks of Mr. Rogé himself for the six semifinalists contradict his own statement. He included among his top three favorites the Japanese girl, Atsuko Kitoshima, that he himself in his slipped disc statement described with this words (which I strongly disapprove): “[she] played today the most boring, tedious and dull Schubert B-flat Sonata I have ever heard in my life, not to mention some poor Debussy Preludes without any french touch”.

Why did Mr. Rogé want this competitor among the three finalists, if he did not like her? Maybe the answer itself is in Mr. Rogé statement. Also, according with the evaluation rule that Mr. Rogé approved, the highest and lowest marks for each competitor are excluded from the average calculation, and Mr. Rogé very often voted the highest or the lowest mark, self-excluding himself from the judgement 38 times out of 47, and making his highest marks (10/10) for his two favorites competitors being excluded from the average calculation.

More in general, having accepted to sit on a jury, any juror also accepts the democratic system of making the mathematical average of the marks, and I cannot think that everybody who has different points of view is a “mafioso” or is acting in a dishonest way. The fact that the marks of each juror will be published is a sign of transparency and honesty, which still very few piano competitions apply.

I believe that in a civil society every citizen should accept the rules of the system where he agrees to take part. If an artist does not accept the system of a piano competition, he should not sit on its jury. Now, I see that Mr. Rogé is very busy in judging in piano competitions around the world and will be the President of the next Geneva Piano Competition, so he is probably not against this system, that he well knows.

We can discuss about the utility of piano competitions, we can agree that sometimes the best artists are not the ones who get the first prize, but, on the other side, a piano competition is still a good opportunity for young and still unknown artists to be known by a wider audience and by international musicians. While I do no expect any excuse from Mr. Rogé in my regards, I wish, at least, that Mr. Rogé will want to help his favourite competitors to start the career that they deserve.


Roberto Prosseda"
- See more at: http://slippedisc.com/2014/10/monza-a-maligned-juror-responds/#sthash.uw7JsFyY.dpuf

Re: Pascal Rogé quits Monza competition jury
fnork #2334088 10/04/14 06:14 PM
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Incidentally, Roberto Prosseda is an active concert pianist, and also a Mendelssohn scholar, having unearthed (and recorded for Decca) some previously unknown piano pieces - including a reconstructed third piano concerto (with Riccardo Chailly and the Leipzig Gewandhaus Orchestra, no less) - by that composer.

To say that Rogé is the only 'active' concert pianist - or the only pianist worth his salt - is total rubbish. Apart from Prosseda, Marshev and (of course) Biegel are also all well-known concert pianists, and would Vladimir Ashkenazy's son really participate in a 'Mafia'-style fix (knowing what his father had to go through while under KGB surveillance in the old Soviet Union)?



"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
Re: Pascal Rogé quits Monza competition jury
SiFi #2334271 10/05/14 09:07 AM
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What a sad affair, all the way around. Everyone gets hurt.

It is far from the first time that the jurying of piano competitions has been highly suspect. In some juried sports competitions, the highest and lowest scores are excluded from the composite average, I believe, to minimize the effect Roge' is complaining about.


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Re: Pascal Rogé quits Monza competition jury
Jeff Clef #2334281 10/05/14 09:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Jeff Clef
What a sad affair, all the way around. Everyone gets hurt.

Yep.

Originally Posted by Jeff Clef
It is far from the first time that the jurying of piano competitions has been highly suspect. In some juried sports competitions, the highest and lowest scores are excluded from the composite average, I believe, to minimize the effect Roge' is complaining about.

According to Roberto Prosseda, they actually did that at Monza, if I'm understanding correctly.


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Re: Pascal Rogé quits Monza competition jury
dolce sfogato #2334315 10/05/14 11:41 AM
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Originally Posted by dolce sfogato
The 'dishonesty and fraud' Mr Rogé seems to have detected is not at all surprising, in a lot of competitions it's more rule than exception alas.

In his memoir, Earl Wild relates that when he was a juror in the 1981 Cliburn Competition Harold Schonberg of the NY Times was actively lobbying various members of the jury on behalf of certain pianists. Wild put his foot down by speaking individually to each juror, which put a stop to this chicanery.

Enclosed is a link to Schonberg's own article on the competition, which shows an obvious bias.

http://www.nytimes.com/1981/05/24/arts/van-cliburn-piano-jury-selects-12-semifinalists.html

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