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Merger for V #2331017 09/25/14 06:04 PM
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Ok, so I'm reading the thread about a new V grand. I'm open to the technology although I haven't heard a recording that does it for me yet. That being said, if I was going to spring for a V grand then I'd want a real action, as in my N2.

So, here's my idea. Roland and Kawai do a V grand together. You get my drift? (Toyota and Subaru just joined forces for their new sports car.)

thoughts?

Last edited by 36251; 09/25/14 06:05 PM.

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Re: Merger for V [Re: 36251] #2331022 09/25/14 06:13 PM
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Marcos Daniel Offline
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I think that is too optimistic...

Last edited by Marcos Daniel; 09/25/14 06:14 PM.

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Re: Merger for V [Re: 36251] #2331023 09/25/14 06:21 PM
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You mean, Kawai has to admit it can't do modeling, but admits that modeling is the future of digital pianos, and Roland has to admit it can't do piano actions, and has to use a rival's (which isn't a true piano action - BTW, the AvantGrands don't have true piano actions either......).

In other words, a lose-lose situation for everybody? thumb


"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
Re: Merger for V [Re: 36251] #2331024 09/25/14 06:24 PM
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VPC1 + Pianoteq


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 & occasional rare groove player.

"I agree that the User Manual is very good." - arc7urus, March 2019
Re: Merger for V [Re: 36251] #2331031 09/25/14 06:53 PM
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Why would Kawai and Roland work together? I cannot think of a reason.

Re: Merger for V [Re: Kawai James] #2331036 09/25/14 07:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Kawai James
VPC1 + Pianoteq

smile


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  • Kawai VPC-1 with Pianoteq

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Re: Merger for V [Re: 36251] #2331038 09/25/14 07:21 PM
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Originally Posted by 36251
Ok, so I'm reading the thread about a new V grand. I'm open to the technology although I haven't heard a recording that does it for me yet. That being said, if I was going to spring for a V grand then I'd want a real action, as in my N2.

So, here's my idea. Roland and Kawai do a V grand together. You get my drift? (Toyota and Subaru just joined forces for their new sports car.)

thoughts?


Same here. The V grand technology coupled with a concert-grand action would be nice.

Re: Merger for V [Re: Pete14] #2331054 09/25/14 09:07 PM
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Petrof used to build a midi controller with a real grand piano action. I wonder if V-piano is better than Pianoteq...


Pianoteq / Kawai CL 35 & MP11 / Old 1920's Upright Zimmerman
Re: Merger for V [Re: Marcos Daniel] #2331059 09/25/14 09:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Marcos Daniel
Petrof used to build a midi controller with a real grand piano action.


Are you thinking of Bosendorfer's CEUS system?

http://www.boesendorfer.com/en/ceus-reproducing-system.html

The above page shows the full grand piano, however I have seen pictures of just the keyboard action mounted into a large box.

I believe the system is similar to the optical hammer sensing system found on Yamaha's Silent and Kawai's AnyTime grand pianos.

Cheers,
James
x


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 & occasional rare groove player.

"I agree that the User Manual is very good." - arc7urus, March 2019
Re: Merger for V [Re: Kawai James] #2331062 09/25/14 09:34 PM
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No, what I'm talking about was a midi controller build by Petrof, it had a real grand piano action, unfortunately, it seems that it is not avaiable any longer, I've just made a google search and found this picture: [Linked Image]

Anyway it was really expensive!

EDIT: I'm not sure, but if my memory doesn't fail, colour, finish, etc could be personalized.

Last edited by Marcos Daniel; 09/25/14 09:37 PM.

Pianoteq / Kawai CL 35 & MP11 / Old 1920's Upright Zimmerman
Re: Merger for V [Re: 36251] #2331069 09/25/14 09:41 PM
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Wow, that's very cool!

Reminds me of something else I saw recently...

Cheers,
James
x


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 & occasional rare groove player.

"I agree that the User Manual is very good." - arc7urus, March 2019
Re: Merger for V [Re: 36251] #2331070 09/25/14 09:43 PM
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James, don't play with our hearts!


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Re: Merger for V [Re: 36251] #2331071 09/25/14 09:47 PM
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The thread referenced by the OP is probably the one I started. I am sure the V-Grand is probably not for everybody, but from everything I read from concert level players and my own limited abilities playing it and several fine acoustic grand pianos, it seemed to work for me. Living in a condo, the ability to capture all that the V-Grand does with headphones is compelling. There will probably be better technology down the road, or something better just around the corner. I am not really into having to stay with the latest and greatest. If the V-Grand works for players far, far, more capable than I am, I am then sure that it will be fine for me for a very long time. It seems to me the differences between various acoustic grand pianos is at least as much as whatever difference there may be between the V-Grand and an acoustic grand. As many people say, YMMV.

Tony

Re: Merger for V [Re: 36251] #2331075 09/25/14 09:53 PM
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Tony, have you tried Pianoteq?
I wonder how it compares to V-Piano (well, it is only software, not a complete instrument), if you are a Pianoteq user, it would be interesting to hear your thouhgts when your V-piano arrives.


Pianoteq / Kawai CL 35 & MP11 / Old 1920's Upright Zimmerman
Re: Merger for V [Re: Marcos Daniel] #2331096 09/25/14 10:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Marcos Daniel
Tony, have you tried Pianoteq?
I wonder how it compares to V-Piano (well, it is only software, not a complete instrument), if you are a Pianoteq user, it would be interesting to hear your thouhgts when your V-piano arrives.


Yes, I have Pianoteq Pro 5. However, I agree with those here who have said that it is difficult to fully appreciate what the V-Grand really is. It isn't just a V-Piano stuffed into a nice cabinet. It apparently has at least a somewhat different sound engine, since updates for the V-Piano do not work for the V-Grand and vice-versa. The entire V-Grand system was designed to work together to create a "real" piano experience. Pianoteq is really nice, but it is still separate from the keyboard in ways that I think others here with more experience in this technology can better address. All I know is that when I sat at the V-Grand, it was not all like playing a digital piano. I really don't think anything else (at least that I have played so far) achieves that total experience that accurately. Whether the sound of the V-Grand is to someone's taste or not (people seem to like one acoustic grand sound over another too), the total experience is undeniable. For those of us who live in situations where an acoustic piano is not feasible, the V-Grand is. Being able to afford it is something else, so I am not saying everyone should get one or that everything else sucks. All I am saying is that I believe there is a reason that it costs what it does.

Tony


Re: Merger for V [Re: 36251] #2331145 09/26/14 05:08 AM
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Hello
I am eagerly reading all these thread about the VPiano and VGrand
and I would be really curious to get hands on one of them
Unfortunatly, not available around my location

However, I have read several times the question about a fair comparison between the VPiano and a solution based on Pianoteq, and I have never read any clue of answers....
Can someone help on this topic ?
How does it compare (if you use headphone, I mean) in terms of sound, playability ?


Music is a lifestyle
(Happy Yamaha N2 and Roland FP90 owner)
Re: Merger for V [Re: 36251] #2331154 09/26/14 06:21 AM
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am I missing something? are we still talking about the V-Piano Grand, which is been around for several years and MSRP is about $25K? (not sure what the street price is for these....). some of the posts make it sound like this just came out. there isn't a new and lower- priced iteration of the V-Piano or V-grand available, right?

TonyB, i have to admit i smiled when i read you are going from a casio Px5 to a V-Grand. in the world of digital pianos, that's like pulling into the dealership in your camry and driving out with a mercedes E-class.

Best of luck!


Steinway M; Roland V-Piano; Yamaha P250;
Ivory II Grands, Italian, American D; Galaxy Vintage D; True Keys American; UVI Yamaha C7; Ravenscroft 275; Garritan CFX
Re: Merger for V [Re: 36251] #2331193 09/26/14 09:23 AM
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The Petrof controller is beautiful. The instrument might've been ahead of its time when initially released; in other words, so called serious pianists wanted nothing to do with digital. Things are different now. It would be great if Petrof resurrected this instrument, and added a Kawai-like soundboard speaker system to match the grand-piano action, and why not, the ability to run a software piano directly from the instrument (on-board computer). I believe the Alpha piano had this capability (installing software on the instrument itself); however, the Alpha did not have on-board speakers, and as far as I'm concerned, Alpha is still in Beta! What the heck happened with the Alpha?

Re: Merger for V [Re: bfb] #2331212 09/26/14 10:30 AM
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Originally Posted by bfb
am I missing something? are we still talking about the V-Piano Grand, which is been around for several years and MSRP is about $25K? (not sure what the street price is for these....). some of the posts make it sound like this just came out. there isn't a new and lower- priced iteration of the V-Piano or V-grand available, right?

TonyB, i have to admit i smiled when i read you are going from a casio Px5 to a V-Grand. in the world of digital pianos, that's like pulling into the dealership in your camry and driving out with a mercedes E-class.

Best of luck!


Thanks bfb. Yes, I believe the V-Grand has been around since 2011. I guess that since I worked as a software engineer for so many years, that to me this does not mean it is old technology, but instead "proven". It becomes "old" when it can no longer do what it should. An example would be an older computer that can't run today's software. Another might be an older digital that doesn't really sound like a piano when so many digital pianos are available today that do. But to your point, it is definitely not new either.

The PX-5S is a bit in a league of its own in that it is a stage piano with a very good piano sound and feel, yet only weighs 24 lbs. I definitely plan to hang onto it for that reason.

Tony


Re: Merger for V [Re: Pete14] #2331222 09/26/14 11:04 AM
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Originally Posted by bfb
am I missing something? are we still talking about the V-Piano Grand, which is been around for several years and MSRP is about $25K? (not sure what the street price is for these....). some of the posts make it sound like this just came out. there isn't a new and lower- priced iteration of the V-Piano or V-grand available, right?

Correct. But this is the first time someone's actually bought one!

Originally Posted by 36251
That being said, if I was going to spring for a V grand then I'd want a real action, as in my N2. So, here's my idea. Roland and Kawai do a V grand together.

If you want a "real" action, surely it should be Yamaha rather than Kawai. Kawai doesn't have an equivalent of the Avant Grand action.

But have you actually tried the V-grand? It already has an excellent action. It feels a bit lighter than the Avant Grand, but then so do many acoustic grand pianos.

Originally Posted by Pete14
It would be great if Petrof resurrected this instrument, and added a Kawai-like soundboard speaker system to match the grand-piano action

Acoustic pianos have soundboards because they *need* them to amplify the string vibrations. Digital pianos don't need them, because they can use amplified speakers. I'm not convinced that Kawai's digitally driven soundboard isn't just another gimmick and potential failure point. Speakers can and do sound as good if not better - see the V-grand as it is currently. I highly doubt adding a huge wooden subwoofer would make it sound better (at least, not better than an actual precision engineered subwoofer, which presumably has a more even response curve. The response of a real acoustic soundboard is already recorded in the sampling / simulated by the modelling).

Quote
and why not, the ability to run a software piano directly from the instrument (on-board computer).

I'd like to see a modular approach here, so that the computer can be upgraded easily, as it's the thing that will go obsolete the soonest.

I think from a hardware manufacturer's point of view, the value they can add is through providing a useful set of physical controls, i.e. knobs, buttons, tactile switches, and sliders, which can be integrated appropriately by the software developers. A good set of immediately accessible physical controls is so much better for controlling software than using buttons to select options buried in menus.


Kawai CA95 / Steinberg UR22 / Sony MDR-7506 / Pianoteq Stage + Grotrian / Galaxy Vintage D / CFX Lite
In the loft: Roland FP3 / Tannoy Reveal Active / K&M 18810
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