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Re: Schubert concert tune [Re: de villiers] #2270263
05/02/14 04:13 PM
05/02/14 04:13 PM
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Posts: 7,439
Rochester MN
Minnesota Marty Offline

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Being so shrouded in mystery, has 'the quest for the Schubert Tuning' now taken on the aura of "the search for the Holy Grail?"

wink


Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.
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Re: Schubert concert tune [Re: de villiers] #2272209
05/07/14 06:14 AM
05/07/14 06:14 AM
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de villiers Offline OP
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I am at a lost to understand how it is possible that apparently only
Marc is able to do a Schubert tuning.(Implication of Marty,s last post)Being a Clinical Psychologist of profession, I cannot help to wonder why the values on
Perry,s piano(on an Accutuner) are kept secret?
I am sure that very many pianists around the world,would like to hear how this tuning sound,especially now that Perry,s book is translated into German and Italian.

Re: Schubert concert tune [Re: de villiers] #2272218
05/07/14 06:47 AM
05/07/14 06:47 AM
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Posts: 2,182
The Netherlands
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WimPiano Offline
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@de_villiers.. As far as I know Marc tunes pianos for a living.. So why can't he keep it a secret? Do you think he needs to throw away his intellectual property?

Last edited by wimpiano; 05/07/14 06:47 AM.
Re: Schubert concert tune [Re: de villiers] #2272258
05/07/14 08:17 AM
05/07/14 08:17 AM
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 7,439
Rochester MN
Minnesota Marty Offline

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Also, it would diminish some of the mystery involved in the book.


Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.
Re: Schubert concert tune [Re: de villiers] #2272274
05/07/14 08:41 AM
05/07/14 08:41 AM
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 2,456
Lowell MA
Larry Buck Offline
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@de_villiers,

BTW, Marc tunes by ear only. The values inserted into an Accutuner were for a local tuner to be able to provide Perry a result without Marc. The parameters for Marc's "Schubert" tuning are Marc's intellectual property. There should be respect for that.

Thank You Marty and wimpiano.

The "Schubert" tuning is a result created by Marc and named by Perry.

In a recent conversation with Marc, I was commenting on Murray Perahih's interpretation of Schubert and Marc commented on his motivation for the "Schubert" tuning.

Murray Perahia does play Schubert beautifully.

Cheers,
Larry


"It is better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool than to open it and remove all doubt."
Mark Twain

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Re: Schubert concert tune [Re: Larry Buck] #2272277
05/07/14 09:00 AM
05/07/14 09:00 AM
Joined: May 2012
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Rochester MN
Minnesota Marty Offline

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Originally Posted by Larry Buck
Murray Perahia does play Schubert beautifully.

Murray Perahia plays beautifully!


Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.
Re: Schubert concert tune [Re: de villiers] #2272359
05/07/14 12:34 PM
05/07/14 12:34 PM
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Posts: 2,456
Lowell MA
Larry Buck Offline
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Marty,

I have some of his recordings in my car .... Boston traffic doesn't seem so bad during the commute time.


"It is better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool than to open it and remove all doubt."
Mark Twain

E. J. Buck & Sons
Lowell MA 01852
978 458 8688
www.ejbuckpiano.com
http://www.facebook.com/EJBuckPerformances
Re: Schubert concert tune [Re: de villiers] #2326592
09/11/14 11:07 PM
09/11/14 11:07 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
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piqué Offline
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everything i know about what the schubert concert tuning is is already in my book, grand obsession. anything i wrote here would just be a repeat of what i wrote there.

marc created the tuning for me. it has to be adapted to the piano it is put on. just taking the numbers from the accutuner doesn't work because it's not going to sound the same on another piano.

but, having said that, you can ask your technician to give you a quieter, more narrow tuning, i.e. one that has a narrower stretch characteristic. tell him you want something that will sound good with schubert, or mozart. i believe marc said he strove for pure octaves. but again, reference the book. it's all in there.

you may not even like it. not everyone responds to the same thing.


piqué

now in paperback:
[Linked Image]

Grand Obsession: A Piano Odyssey
Re: Schubert concert tune [Re: de villiers] #2326661
09/12/14 04:13 AM
09/12/14 04:13 AM
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 9,230
France
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Olek Offline
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France
Originally Posted by de villiers
I am at a lost to understand how it is possible that apparently only


I am sure that very many pianists around the world,would like to hear how this tuning sound,especially now that Perry,s book is translated into German and Italian.



And in French (trad Marc Valdeyron).

I just like to know if it is an equal temp or no.

Of course even on a similar piano numbers from a ETD would only give an approximation.

At some point in carrier, many ("aural", I hate that terminology) tuners prefer low "natural" stretch, if they have been used to add some on top of their octaves.

possibly also the high spectra presence lowers in the ear of aging tuners an they like or hear better the mellow tone of non stretched octaves.





Last edited by Olek; 09/12/14 04:19 AM.

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Re: Schubert concert tune [Re: de villiers] #2326680
09/12/14 06:55 AM
09/12/14 06:55 AM
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 2,056
Chicagoland
RonTuner Offline
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Chicagoland
Yes, equal temperament.

Ron Koval

Re: Schubert concert tune [Re: de villiers] #2329846
09/22/14 05:15 AM
09/22/14 05:15 AM
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rXd Offline
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Equal temperament, compact middle five octaves, a little more freedom in extreme octaves has been standard practice with many fine piano manufacturers with little variation for well over 100 years according to what my old teachers told me about their old teachers. Some good salesmanship, though.


Amanda Reckonwith
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.


Re: Schubert concert tune [Re: RonTuner] #2333020
10/01/14 01:16 PM
10/01/14 01:16 PM
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 1
UK
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Tom Nor Offline
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I am new to the forum and this is my first post !

I want to thank RonTuner for those details, that is very useful technical detail for my tuner to have to try out, I mentioned the "Schubert Tuning" ref: the Grand Obsession book to him a while ago; he had never heard of it.

I can recommend this unusual book on the subject: "How Equal Temperament Ruined Harmony" by Ross Duffin. His view is not I believe the conventional one (the basic thesis is that ET didn't become "standard" until the 20th C), but it is very interesting with a lot of detail accessible to non-tuners and technicians on this fascinating topic.

That book and Perri's amazing quest in the "Grand Obsession" book got me interested in the subject of tuning. Until reading these books I had not even realised there was any other option !! (Her book is how I found out about the Piano World Forums, and also the good idea of having a "Piano Party", which a group of us here in London now regularly do).

I have found out from trying some different tunings on my Yamaha Digital Keyboard, that Jazz sounds particularly weird on non-ET tunings. (my main piano is a 1935 Bluthner 4a which I have just bought, and I am delighted with it - first grand piano after many years with a Yamaha U3). There is a tuning app called CLEARTUNE for iPhones that the dealer made me get to check to see if the Bluthner is losing pitch, which is quite interesting to check things out with.


1935 Bluthner 4a
Re: Schubert concert tune [Re: prout] #2333112
10/01/14 06:24 PM
10/01/14 06:24 PM
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 25,818
New York City
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Originally Posted by prout
Originally Posted by pianoloverus
I think the skill of the pianist and basic tonal quality of the piano are incredibly more important than the type of tuning used.

If that is the case, why are instruments tuned at all, and why have musicians and composers agonized over tunings for hundreds of years? The music that composers write presupposes some form of organization of the relations between notes that they want to hear and expect the listener to hear. Is it not our job to try our best to provide that foundation on which to perform their music?
I didn't at all imply a piano shouldn't be tuned. I said I thought the type of tuning is not very important compared to other factors.

In terms of how good a piece sounds, I think the particular type of tuning selected is less than 1% in terms of importance. The basic quality of the piano and skill of the performer is the other 99%. There are some very highly regarded techs who told me they think all of these historical or other kinds of tunings are mostly BS.

In the case of "Grand Obsession" the author is at best an intermediate pianist. I that everyone deserves to have a tuning system on their piano that the like, but IMO it is about 1% of how good a performance sounds.

Re: Schubert concert tune [Re: pianoloverus] #2333140
10/01/14 07:58 PM
10/01/14 07:58 PM
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Tennessee
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Ed Foote Offline
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Originally Posted by pianoloverus
There are some very highly regarded techs who told me they think all of these historical or other kinds of tunings are mostly BS.

In the case of "Grand Obsession" the author is at best an intermediate pianist. I that everyone deserves to have a tuning system on their piano that the like, but IMO it is about 1% of how good a performance sounds.



Greetings,
Thank goodness I don't tune for some of the highly regarded techs. The professional customers I have that have left ET behind are way more important to me than the castigation from those of limited experience. These customers are spending money on BS ? I don't think so. I do think that some reactionary tuners can't consider anything but what they have mastered, but the loss is theirs.

As far as the tuning being 1% of the value of the performance, I don't know how you measure that. I do know that a couple of notes with a few cents in the unison can completely overshadow the greatest finesse in a very open, slow passage.

Regards,

Re: Schubert concert tune [Re: Ed Foote] #2333315
10/02/14 10:37 AM
10/02/14 10:37 AM
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Posts: 25,818
New York City
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Originally Posted by Ed Foote
Originally Posted by pianoloverus
There are some very highly regarded techs who told me they think all of these historical or other kinds of tunings are mostly BS.

In the case of "Grand Obsession" the author is at best an intermediate pianist. I that everyone deserves to have a tuning system on their piano that the like, but IMO it is about 1% of how good a performance sounds.



Greetings,
Thank goodness I don't tune for some of the highly regarded techs. The professional customers I have that have left ET behind are way more important to me than the castigation from those of limited experience. These customers are spending money on BS ? I don't think so. I do think that some reactionary tuners can't consider anything but what they have mastered, but the loss is theirs.

As far as the tuning being 1% of the value of the performance, I don't know how you measure that. I do know that a couple of notes with a few cents in the unison can completely overshadow the greatest finesse in a very open, slow passage.

Regards,
The tuner who expressed the opinion I mentioned about historical tunings is highly regarded nationally and has lectured at the national conventional for many years. He has decades of experience, and my guess is you personally think very highly of him. Of course, some pianists might prefer a historical or non standard tuning and that is fine also. The historical tunings are not BS for them. But, although I admit I know little about the alternative approaches, I think it is wrong think these less traditional tunings are necessarily superior.

A while ago, on a piano walk on Piano Row attended by many PW members two, I believe identical pianos, were set up at Beethoven Pianos. One had the Schubert tuning and the other had a traditional contemporary tuning. I think many people could hear no difference, and when several less than excellent pianists played the piano with the Schubert tuning the music sounded less than excellent despite the tuning. I'd guess you can hear the tuning separate from the performance better than most people, but for the majority I think the skill of the performer ends up being far more important than the type of tuning. Of course, if a very good pianist played both pianos it's possible the one with the Schubert tuning would be preferred by some.

If some of the historical or other non standard tunings are really superior, I think it begs the question "How many professional pianists prefer this tuning on their personal piano"?

Last edited by pianoloverus; 10/02/14 10:49 AM.
Re: Schubert concert tune [Re: pianoloverus] #2333505
10/02/14 07:45 PM
10/02/14 07:45 PM
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Tennessee
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Ed Foote Offline
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Originally Posted by pianoloverus

If some of the historical or other non standard tunings are really superior, I think it begs the question "How many professional pianists prefer this tuning on their personal piano"?


Well, since you asked,
about 65% of the professionals I work for and about 90 % of the amateurs, are in something other than strict ET. Approx. half the piano and voice faculty at the university are also more comfortable with mild to moderate temperaments.

And really, comparing the "Schubert" tuning to a normal ET is like comparing two shades of beige. Compare Schubert's music played on a Broadwood's Best with any ET you can find and I think you will come to a different conclusion.
Regards,

Last edited by Ed Foote; 10/02/14 07:46 PM.
Re: Schubert concert tune [Re: de villiers] #2333510
10/02/14 07:55 PM
10/02/14 07:55 PM
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I don't understand the preoccupation of chasing after the holy grails of temperament in relation to a single composer. In my opinion the validity of a Schubert temperament is about as useful as a Bach temperament, or a Mozart...


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Re: Schubert concert tune [Re: Ed Foote] #2333514
10/02/14 08:10 PM
10/02/14 08:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Ed Foote
Originally Posted by pianoloverus

If some of the historical or other non standard tunings are really superior, I think it begs the question "How many professional pianists prefer this tuning on their personal piano"?


Well, since you asked,
about 65% of the professionals I work for and about 90 % of the amateurs, are in something other than strict ET. Approx. half the piano and voice faculty at the university are also more comfortable with mild to moderate temperaments.
What about all professionals(not just the ones you tune for)? What percent of professionals performing recitals at major venues are something other than ET?

Re: Schubert concert tune [Re: de villiers] #2333526
10/02/14 08:52 PM
10/02/14 08:52 PM
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shirley, MA
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Pianoloverus,

I prefer ET for the relative stillness of all the fifths. These fifths, among other intervals create sonorities, and tone qualities that I find really pleasurable...actually more than that...sonorities that when I hear their relative stillness, literally switch off a whole layer chronic of stress. Whether or not the sounds that resonate with me have any objective reality, I don't really know, but they most certainly exist in my particular experience of the sounds.

I do not have the benefit of experiencing the world though someone else's eyes/ears/brain, but have enough experience of those close to me, to know that their experience of a particular sound or event often varies markedly from mine. I think its entirely reasonable that for someone like Pique, and many other someones, the sound of Marks's "Schubert" tuning resonates, for her, in a way that is qualitatively similar to the way I hear fifths. I don't experience it, but the visceral level with which she responds to it, gives it, in my book, a high degree of credibility. Is it objective reality...who knows...it really doesn't matter.

Among fine technicians, the same subjective experiences of sounds, within a really fine bandwidth of fine tunings, come again and again to the fore. Different perceptive apparati will create different experiences of the same event...whitness one of the singular, most evolutionary and revolutionary creations of human culture...the rule of law, and within that, the trial by jury system. It acknowledges that 12 people sitting in a room hearing the same evidience and seeing the same proceedings, will very likely come to 12 different takes on what actually happended in the court room...and have to agree on a political interpretation of the "reality" of the case in question.

Subjective, personal realities are where its at.

Jim Ialeggio


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