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Re: WEIRDEST passage in Chopin? [Re: Mark_C] #2327985
09/16/14 07:09 AM
09/16/14 07:09 AM
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TwoSnowflakes Offline
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That little middle part in the c# post. nocturne?

ETA: ok, I take it back. It's not that hard and I can't imagine you perform it all the time. But it is awfully familiar.

Last edited by TwoSnowflakes; 09/16/14 07:10 AM.
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Re: WEIRDEST passage in Chopin? [Re: Mark_C] #2327995
09/16/14 07:58 AM
09/16/14 07:58 AM
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Nothing more enlightening and infuriating than a Mark C thread. laugh

Re: WEIRDEST passage in Chopin? [Re: jeffreyjones] #2328033
09/16/14 10:20 AM
09/16/14 10:20 AM
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Originally Posted by jeffreyjones
Nothing more enlightening and infuriating than a Mark C thread. laugh

Sorta like long term psychotherapy. grin

Last edited by carey; 09/16/14 10:43 AM.

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Re: WEIRDEST passage in Chopin? [Re: Mark_C] #2328042
09/16/14 10:42 AM
09/16/14 10:42 AM
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Sorry if already revealed, did not read the whole thread.

This one?

[Linked Image]


Re: WEIRDEST passage in Chopin? [Re: TwoSnowflakes] #2328073
09/16/14 12:04 PM
09/16/14 12:04 PM
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Originally Posted by TwoSnowflakes
That little middle part in the c# post. nocturne?

ETA: ok, I take it back. It's not that hard and I can't imagine you perform it all the time. But it is awfully familiar.

No, I wasn't talking about the 'quiz' piece when I said what made you take it back!
You're not the first one who found some of this confusing -- sorry.
Your guess fits perfectly with what I said. It's not the 'right' answer grin but it's just as good if not better.

About the above confusion: Along the way we started talking about a couple of other pieces. I think what you saw was about the F# minor Polonaise, which isn't what the 1st post was about. Some other stuff was about the 4th Scherzo, which isn't it either.

BTW, not of any particular interest smile but while 'the piece in question' is a very familiar one, to me as well as probably all of you, I've never performed it.

About your guess of the Nocturne: The reason I say it maybe fits even better than 'the right answer' is that in the Nocturne, I think the stuff in the middle absolutely comes from nothing that preceded, while in 'my' piece, as I said there's at least some relation in terms of music theory.

Re: WEIRDEST passage in Chopin? [Re: jeffreyjones] #2328076
09/16/14 12:16 PM
09/16/14 12:16 PM
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Originally Posted by jeffreyjones
Nothing more enlightening and infuriating than a Mark C thread. laugh

OK, let's end the infuriation, although maybe when y'all see 'the answer,' you'll decide this wasn't really very enlightening. ha

(I can hear the groans already!)

It's the "ragtime" thing at the beginning of the coda of the 1st Ballade, 8:45 - 8:52 on here (sorry if a political ad shows up at the beginning, as it did for me):




Re: WEIRDEST passage in Chopin? [Re: Mark_C] #2328083
09/16/14 12:40 PM
09/16/14 12:40 PM
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ragtime?

Re: WEIRDEST passage in Chopin? [Re: Damon] #2328086
09/16/14 12:54 PM
09/16/14 12:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Damon
ragtime?

yeah smile

Re: WEIRDEST passage in Chopin? [Re: Mark_C] #2328091
09/16/14 01:08 PM
09/16/14 01:08 PM
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Groan grin

Re: WEIRDEST passage in Chopin? [Re: Mark_C] #2328159
09/16/14 03:54 PM
09/16/14 03:54 PM
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Bay Area, CA
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Mark, I can see how that is indeed a "weird moment". Although I happen to think Chopin is full of weird moments, in almost every piece. Just in this Ballade: what about that chord in the beginning, that used to be edited away (mentioned earlier)? What about the accelerando octaves at the end, right out of a modern rhythmic study by Nancarrow?

Actually, maybe it's like saying a word over and over until it begins to sound strange. Lots and lots of things, especially when removed from their context and examined as if for the first time, sound strange. Even in composers like Mozart and Schubert, let alone Chopin.


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Re: WEIRDEST passage in Chopin? [Re: Mark_C] #2328169
09/16/14 04:33 PM
09/16/14 04:33 PM
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Impromptu nr.2 op.36, the 2 bars that 'modulate' from D to F, quite weird.


Longtemps, je me suis couché de bonne heure, but not anymore!
Re: WEIRDEST passage in Chopin? [Re: Ferdinand] #2328194
09/16/14 06:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Ferdinand
Polonaise op. 44, f# minor. The part that begins at the 3-minute mark in this recording
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pdc5xkGj5E8

I don't think that's weird, really.

And, boy, I haven't heard that performance in a while. That left hand chromatic run near the end (9:23) is glorious.

Re: WEIRDEST passage in Chopin? [Re: dolce sfogato] #2328213
09/16/14 07:14 PM
09/16/14 07:14 PM
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Originally Posted by dolce sfogato
Impromptu nr.2 op.36, the 2 bars that 'modulate' from D to F, quite weird.

Yes -- and that passage fits the whole description too.

Re: WEIRDEST passage in Chopin? [Re: Mark_C] #2328218
09/16/14 07:24 PM
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Apparently, Chopin didn't quite know if it was going to be received well. Maybe this is due to its weirdness.

Re: WEIRDEST passage in Chopin? [Re: PikaPianist] #2328231
09/16/14 08:06 PM
09/16/14 08:06 PM
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I agree--nothing's stranger. Someone described it as "wind whistling over graves."





Re: WEIRDEST passage in Chopin? [Re: Grandalf] #2328251
09/16/14 09:39 PM
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Originally Posted by JoelW
Apparently, Chopin didn't quite know if it was going to be received well. Maybe this is due to its weirdness.

Cool -- but how do we know that?
I didn't know we knew that.
And I guess maybe you didn't know that some of us didn't know we knew that. grin

Re: WEIRDEST passage in Chopin? [Re: Mark_C] #2328253
09/16/14 09:44 PM
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I wish I knew the source. I recall Chopin saying it in a letter to someone.

Re: WEIRDEST passage in Chopin? [Re: Eldridge] #2328255
09/16/14 09:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Eldridge
I agree--nothing's stranger. Someone described it as "wind whistling over graves."

I always thought it was wind blowing through a cornfield.

Re: WEIRDEST passage in Chopin? [Re: Mark_C] #2328261
09/16/14 10:22 PM
09/16/14 10:22 PM
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To me almost EVERYTHING in the Barcarolle is weird from the strange dolce sfogato section (does anyone hear John Williams' score to ET in the 5th & 6th measures here?) to the startling harmonies and counterpoint of the coda to the final 32 note leggiero (where did that come from?) to the sweeping downward crescendo and final four octaves. This masterpiece is feverishly ethereal, hallucinogenic, otherworldly. It is, in 60s lingo, a real trip.

Last edited by DameMyra; 09/16/14 10:23 PM.

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Re: WEIRDEST passage in Chopin? [Re: dolce sfogato] #2328271
09/16/14 11:04 PM
09/16/14 11:04 PM
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Originally Posted by dolce sfogato
Impromptu nr.2 op.36, the 2 bars that 'modulate' from D to F, quite weird.


That's exactly the passage I was thinking of until I saw the big reveal. Not sure I would call Mark's passage "weird", however. Much stranger to me are the highly exposed consecutive fifths in Op. 10 No. 1. They're pretty flagrant the first time they show up (bars 12 -13), but then he doubles down on them in bars 60 -61 with the chromatic insertions. Not saying they're "wrong" or anything (though Walter Piston or Clemens Non Papa probably wouldn't have approved), more like it's so weird that they DON'T sound wrong!


SRF
Re: WEIRDEST passage in Chopin? [Re: Mark_C] #2328276
09/16/14 11:17 PM
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"There is no excellent beauty that hath not some strangeness in the proportion." - Francis Bacon

Confession time.. if I had to list my 20 favorite pieces of Chopin, these days, they would probably all be Mazurkas. And I think it's because the strangeness in them seems less strange.. in the format and context of a mazurka, the whole fabric always comes together perfectly, and Chopin's true voice rings through. The opening bars of the A minor mazurka, Op. 17, No. 4, are some of the strangest in all of music, but in context no one would ever question it.

Re: WEIRDEST passage in Chopin? [Re: SiFi] #2328279
09/16/14 11:29 PM
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Originally Posted by SiFi
....the highly exposed consecutive fifths in Op. 10 No. 1. They're pretty flagrant the first time they show up (bars 12 -13), but then he doubles down on them in bars 60 -61 with the chromatic insertions. Not saying they're "wrong" or anything (though Walter Piston or Clemens Non Papa probably wouldn't have approved), more like it's so weird that they DON'T sound wrong!

They 'don't sound wrong' to such an extent that offhand, I wasn't sure at all what you're referring to in the piece. I sort of think I know where one of them might be, but I would have thought it was later than m. 12......let's see....

Pulling up the score from IMSLP.....

I'm looking right at m. 12-13, and hearing it in my mind's ear -- and I don't see or hear parallel 5th's there at all! (I assume that's what you mean by "consecutive.") Even when I really try, and try hard. I'm not saying they're not there, just that I don't find them, nor sense them.

And let's flip to m. 60-61....
Nope, not there either.

By the way, as to the place where I was thinking there might be parallel 5th's.....let's see where that is.
A couple of places: m. 24-25, and a similar thing at m 36-37.
And indeed, those do have them. I wonder if maybe when you said 12-13, you meant 24-25? Or am I counting the measures wrong somehow? (I tried hard not to.) smile
Am I just missing something in 12-13?

And yeah, as I indicated, as I first thought my way through the piece, m. 24-25 did feel like it might have parallel 5th's, once you got me thinking about it, but as to why it never struck me as anything 'wrong' or unusual, I think it's because m.24 and m.36 are sort of "endings," and so the measure following each of them is sort of a new thing and seems like a 'shift' rather than a progression, although, as per what you said, that wouldn't make it with a theory teacher. grin

Re: WEIRDEST passage in Chopin? [Re: Mark_C] #2328505
09/17/14 06:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Mark_C
Originally Posted by SiFi
....the highly exposed consecutive fifths in Op. 10 No. 1. They're pretty flagrant the first time they show up (bars 12 -13), but then he doubles down on them in bars 60 -61 with the chromatic insertions. Not saying they're "wrong" or anything (though Walter Piston or Clemens Non Papa probably wouldn't have approved), more like it's so weird that they DON'T sound wrong!

I'm looking right at m. 12-13, and hearing it in my mind's ear -- and I don't see or hear parallel 5th's there at all! (I assume that's what you mean by "consecutive.") Even when I really try, and try hard. I'm not saying they're not there, just that I don't find them, nor sense them.

And let's flip to m. 60-61....
Nope, not there either.

Hmm . . . Almost seems like we might be referring to two different compositions. confused

Here's what I'm talking about. If you remove the figuration and reduce everything to the linear harmonic groundwork (without getting all Schenkerian or anything), the segments I'm talking about look like this:
[Linked Image]
(Sorry about my messy script - couldn't find any manuscript paper.)

I'm saying that the 5ths are "exposed" because they occur in the counterpoint between the incidental melody produced by the top harmonic line and the quasi-melodic bass part. The fact that they're in the outer parts should make them really conspicuous, but they don't sound wrong at all. And I can't imagine any way of rearranging the harmony to avoid them. Just an example of how you can't "correct" the work of a genius, even when he or she may appear to be breaking sacrosanct rules.

I don't want to come off as pedantic or offended by Chopin's infractions. shocked Just trying to explain what I meant. smile smile


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