Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2.7 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
(ad)
Best of Piano Buyer
 Best of Piano Buyer
(ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
Find a Professional
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers

Advertise on Piano World

(ad)
Accu-Tuner
Sanderson Accu-Tuner
Who's Online Now
59 registered members (AlphaBravoCharlie, Alex Hutor, amis, Animisha, astrotoy, apianostudent, 18 invisible), 1,747 guests, and 6 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Quick Links to Useful Piano & Music Resources
Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano & Music Accessories
*Live Piano Venues
*Music School Listings
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Directory/Site Map
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords & Scales
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
Do you "swing" your Courante? #2322674
09/01/14 01:47 PM
09/01/14 01:47 PM
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 4,423
Rockford, IL
Cinnamonbear Offline OP
4000 Post Club Member
Cinnamonbear  Offline OP
4000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 4,423
Rockford, IL
So, I was practicing Dieupart's "Sixieme Suite" in F min., getting ready for the E-cital of suites, and the Courante was giving me fits! I could not for the life of me make anything out of the notation in 3/2 and find anything like a flow, or otherwise figure out, "How does this thing go?!?! crazy ". So, I went looking for a recording on YouTube--kind of like having someone who is reading over your shoulder pronounce a word for you that you are stumbling with when trying to "sound it out".

I found several renditions in different arrangements: solo harpsichord; flute, violin, cello, organ; harpsichord and flute. In one of those renditions, they gave a dotted rhythm to the Allemande and the Courante, which gave it a very jaunty, dance-like feel. It was beautiful and made all kinds of sense, though the score from which I am reading does not notate it that way.

Andrey Postoev and Taras Baginet swing the Allemande: http://youtu.be/b-Jare2a1Lg?t=4m19s

Claudius Kamp and Mikhail Yarzhembovskiy swing the Courante: http://youtu.be/vW19nLPhZEc?t=4m3s

So then, this morning, while I was practicing Handel's Keyboard Suite No. 5, (the one that has in it what is commonly called, "The Harmonious Blacksmith"), I decided to swing the Courante, which also had been giving me certain kinds of fits. WOW! REVELATION! Seriously, giving it a jaunty dotted rhythm caused it to make sense to me in a very musical way that it had not before. I mean, there is this very strange passage in the second section of the Courante that cleared up instantly with this rhythm.

In the last few years, I have learned enough to know that I can distrust a fair amount of things when it comes to the way Baroque music is edited for publication. For instance, I pay NO ATTENTION to dynamic markings! LOL!

My question to those of you who know this stuff: Was it written one way with the understanding that it would be played another? I've seen many pieces of popular sheet music tunes that give a notation at the top of the page where it says something like, "swing feel," or where it shows, "eighth note = dotted eighth," or some such thing. When I followed these Dieupart renditions with the music, it was like someone cracked a code for me, though I am sure it does not apply to all Allemandes and Courantes (or Correntes, or whatever kind of regional Continental spelling there may be with all of the corresponding intricacies of nuance and cultural differences betwixt and amongst them... crazy ) for all time in every way...

The question is, "Can I (may I) swing the Courante in Handel's Keyboard Suite No. 5?"

--Andy


I may not be fast,
but at least I'm slow.
Piano & Music Gifts & Accessories (570)
Piano accessories and music gift items, digital piano dolly, music theme party goods
Re: Do you "swing" your Courante? [Re: Cinnamonbear] #2322794
09/01/14 06:40 PM
09/01/14 06:40 PM
Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 4,468
Southwestern Ontario
P
prout Offline
4000 Post Club Member
prout  Offline
4000 Post Club Member
P

Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 4,468
Southwestern Ontario
Handel was big into notes inégales. It is a "courante" after all. Swing away.

Re: Do you "swing" your Courante? [Re: Cinnamonbear] #2322858
09/01/14 09:14 PM
09/01/14 09:14 PM
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 2,826
Ann Arbor, MI
jazzyprof Offline
2000 Post Club Member
jazzyprof  Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 2,826
Ann Arbor, MI
For a Courante, it don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing.
grin


"Playing the piano is my greatest joy...period."......JP
Re: Do you "swing" your Courante? [Re: Cinnamonbear] #2322955
09/02/14 04:20 AM
09/02/14 04:20 AM
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 854
Dorset, UK
S
sandalholme Offline
500 Post Club Member
sandalholme  Offline
500 Post Club Member
S

Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 854
Dorset, UK
A courante is, or should be, the French version of the dance and therefore some notice should be taken of the French principle of notes inegales. A corrente is, or should be, the Italian version, so inequality is less appropriate. Think jogging in a carefree way against running, as gracefully as possible, for a train. The rhythmic effect of notes inegales is however subtle, for me a lilt rather than a swing. Given the provenance of the main non-organ keyboard instrument of the time, the harpsichord, some rhythmic freedom is necessary for expressive purposes, but in dances like Allemandes, this I believe should be very subtle indeed, hardly qualifying as notes inegales to the casual listener.

JSB wrote both courantes and correntes, but generally called them courantes. French suites 5 and 6 have correntes. In the other French suites the courantes are sort of French - for me the one in the 3rd suite comes nearest to a courante proper - but they seem to be a sort of hybrid. Compare also the courante in Partita 2, for me French, with the one in Partita 5, for me a corrente.

Re: Do you "swing" your Courante? [Re: Cinnamonbear] #2322970
09/02/14 05:28 AM
09/02/14 05:28 AM
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 874
Scotland
D
drumour Offline
500 Post Club Member
drumour  Offline
500 Post Club Member
D

Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 874
Scotland
Courantes are in 3/2 time with more or fewer introductions of 6/4. Correntes are in 3/4 time. That more or less defines them. The confusion arises when, as in Bach's suites, they are all labelled "Courante" regardlessly.

John


Vasa inania multum strepunt.
Re: Do you "swing" your Courante? [Re: drumour] #2323048
09/02/14 09:23 AM
09/02/14 09:23 AM
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 4,423
Rockford, IL
Cinnamonbear Offline OP
4000 Post Club Member
Cinnamonbear  Offline OP
4000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 4,423
Rockford, IL
Thank you, prout and jazzyprof, for the permission! It actually frees my playing spirit to know I can aim for the bleachers instead of having to lay down a bunt! :D


Thank you sandalholme and drumour for the information. That certainly fills in some gaps! :thumb:


I wish I could see these things danced at some point. I've read up on the Allemande and Courante on wikipedia (a simple start...), but seeing a hop or a leap in action, in time to music, is different than reading it on a page! :crazy: And tempo is always an issue. And sometimes the harmonies in some of Bach's and Handel's courantes are so complex and rich and gorgeous that I want to linger instead of just push it along... But mainly, I would like to know the "character" of these dances, and the way B and H write, each Allemande and Courante (and Sarabande and Minuet and Gavotte and Gigue, etc.) seems like an unpredictable individual to me! :grin:


Thank you for the replies!

--Andy


I may not be fast,
but at least I'm slow.
Re: Do you "swing" your Courante? [Re: Cinnamonbear] #2323065
09/02/14 10:26 AM
09/02/14 10:26 AM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 516
Alberta
1
1RC Offline
500 Post Club Member
1RC  Offline
500 Post Club Member
1

Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 516
Alberta
I read in [url="http://www.amazon.com/Dance-Music-J-S-Bach/dp/0253214645/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1409667352&sr=1-1&keywords=dance+and+the+music+of+js+bach"]Dance and the Music of JS Bach[/url] that the french courante was one of the slowest dances. From what I recall this was deduced from specific dance steps written from the time of Louis XIV which could not have possibly been done quickly.

I took a peek on youtube and found a video of [url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=418-Lzfhu0I]two girls performing the dance[/url]

It was an unusual concept when I first read it and my teacher made dubious faces at the idea so I never did give it a proper exploration. If I have time later I will dig up a quote or two from the book!

Last edited by 1RC; 09/02/14 10:34 AM.
Re: Do you "swing" your Courante? [Re: 1RC] #2323415
09/02/14 11:25 PM
09/02/14 11:25 PM
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 4,423
Rockford, IL
Cinnamonbear Offline OP
4000 Post Club Member
Cinnamonbear  Offline OP
4000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 4,423
Rockford, IL
*Slaps forehead*

I keep forgettin' you can look stuff up on the Internet!

So, tonight, I hit the jackpot. People dancing to the very Dieupart suite that I'm preparing for the e-cital! Ha-ha!!! laugh

Sarabande:


Menuet:


Gigue:


Didn't find anyone dancing to Dieupart's Courante, but I did find this example of a courante: http://youtu.be/l_LqOvnQny4

Then a very confusing Allemande: http://youtu.be/7BXfc3UoC38

Then, this: http://youtu.be/rziWXnRKmrw

...which made me wonder, "How could anyone dance with such tricked-out hair?" crazy

Ah, the YouTube rabbit hole. grin


I may not be fast,
but at least I'm slow.

Moderated by  Brendan, Kreisler 

Shop our Store for Music Lovers!
PianoSupplies.com is Piano World's Online Store
Please visit our store today.
(ad)
Pianoteq
PianoTeq Bechstein
(ad)
Faust Harrison Pianos
Faust Harrison 100+ Steinway pianos
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Home upright piano sound?
by Yuri Pavlov. 08/21/19 01:08 AM
Queen Victorian's Piano at the Proms
by WhoDwaldi. 08/20/19 11:33 PM
Why play on the black keys as a beginner?
by Andamento. 08/20/19 09:59 PM
What's Hot!!
Mason & Hamlin Piano Factory Tour!
-------------------
Posting Pictures on the Forums
-------------------
Forums RULES & HELP
-------------------
ADVERTISE on Piano World
Forum Statistics
Forums41
Topics193,650
Posts2,860,959
Members94,203
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
Please Support Our Advertisers


Faust Harrison 100+ Steinways

Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver

 Best of Piano Buyer

PianoTeq Bechstein
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers


 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter |


copyright 1997 - 2019 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.1