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Re: Playing the Avant Grandes & CLP585 [Re: Chris Warren] #2317497
08/19/14 09:50 PM
08/19/14 09:50 PM
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GWILLY Offline
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I both agree and disagree. Ultimately, even a real piano can sound crappy at the listening position, if the room is bad. Position the same piano in a great room, different results. I think playback systems can make a huge difference. It is not inconceivable that a surround sound algorithm with accurate and adequate amplification, speaker placement and quality, intimately twinned with state of the art sampling/modelling - could be far more cost effective. Especially with DSP. smile Just saying.

Last edited by GWILLY; 08/19/14 09:51 PM.
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Re: Playing the Avant Grandes & CLP585 [Re: Chris Warren] #2317579
08/20/14 04:10 AM
08/20/14 04:10 AM
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spanishbuddha Offline
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What none of the hybrids or DP's do, is recreate that rumble and resonance of something alive inside the cabinet when you push down the damper. Something in there to be tamed and mastered.

Maybe not everyone wants to hear, all or many of these these unmusical side effects of the real thing. But that's the first thing I notice in comparison when I sit at my teachers piano.

Re: Playing the Avant Grandes & CLP585 [Re: GWILLY] #2317589
08/20/14 05:50 AM
08/20/14 05:50 AM
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toddy Offline
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Originally Posted by GWILLY
I both agree and disagree. Ultimately, even a real piano can sound crappy at the listening position, if the room is bad.


Indeed it can. That is one of the main indicators that you are listening to a piano and not a digital. A digital usually sounds perfect, like a recording, as was pointed out above.

You could argue that 95% or more of the quality of a piano is captured by the digital piano. It's the remaining 5% that's the problem and some, most but not all of that 5% is composed of crap.

The precise details of listening to an acoustic piano close up are still elusive, but they are lost to the audience in a concert hall or the CD listener, anyway.

Last edited by toddy; 08/20/14 05:51 AM.

Roland HP 302 / Samson Graphite 49 / Akai EWI

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Re: Playing the Avant Grandes & CLP585 [Re: spanishbuddha] #2317591
08/20/14 05:55 AM
08/20/14 05:55 AM
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Originally Posted by spanishbuddha
What none of the hybrids or DP's do, is recreate that rumble and resonance of something alive inside the cabinet when you push down the damper. Something in there to be tamed and mastered.


Actually, that is simulated (and adjustable) on my V-Piano, and, it seems, on the new Rolands. See Jay Roland's demo video on the RD800 Turbo Start video thread, where he demonstrates exactly that 'rumble & resonance' when you step on the pedal.


"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
Re: Playing the Avant Grandes & CLP585 [Re: toddy] #2317620
08/20/14 07:55 AM
08/20/14 07:55 AM
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Italy
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Paolo70 Offline
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Hi Toddy,

Originally Posted by toddy
Originally Posted by GWILLY
I both agree and disagree. Ultimately, even a real piano can sound crappy at the listening position, if the room is bad.


Indeed it can. That is one of the main indicators that you are listening to a piano and not a digital. A digital usually sounds perfect, like a recording, as was pointed out above.


I think Gwilly was referring to the impact of room acoustics, which affects both AP's and DP's.

Actually the sound from typical DP's point-source speakers can be affected by room acoustics more severely than the sound from an AP's extended soundboard.

Ciao,
Paolo


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Re: Playing the Avant Grandes & CLP585 [Re: Paolo70] #2317629
08/20/14 08:34 AM
08/20/14 08:34 AM
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toddy Offline
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Originally Posted by Paolo70
Hi Toddy,

Originally Posted by toddy
Originally Posted by GWILLY
I both agree and disagree. Ultimately, even a real piano can sound crappy at the listening position, if the room is bad.


Indeed it can. That is one of the main indicators that you are listening to a piano and not a digital. A digital usually sounds perfect, like a recording, as was pointed out above.


I think Gwilly was referring to the impact of room acoustics, which affects both AP's and DP's.

Actually the sound from typical DP's point-source speakers can be affected by room acoustics more severely than the sound from an AP's extended soundboard.

Ciao,
Paolo


Yes - that's a good point. But I think we're all agreed that, what ever the acoustics, the real thing is different from the best digital set up.

I don't think it matters much, anyway, because for the past half century, recording engineers have been busy ironing out that last 5% of crap that the real piano experience gives you.

Digital piano makers - especially VST software producers - are now putting it back in again. This could be considered a healthy crossover, or something else.


Roland HP 302 / Samson Graphite 49 / Akai EWI

Reaper / Native Instruments K9 ult / ESQL MOR2 Symph Orchestra & Choirs / Lucato & Parravicini , trumpets & saxes / Garritan CFX lite / Production Voices C7 & Steinway D compact

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Re: Playing the Avant Grandes & CLP585 [Re: spanishbuddha] #2317863
08/20/14 06:31 PM
08/20/14 06:31 PM
Joined: Feb 2010
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PianoZac Offline
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Originally Posted by spanishbuddha
What none of the hybrids or DP's do, is recreate that rumble and resonance of something alive inside the cabinet when you push down the damper. Something in there to be tamed and mastered.


The Nord Pianos do a heck of a good job recreating this. It's actually pretty impressive as the sound changes with dynamics.

String Resonance Modeling (go to 2:07 in the video)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F4q--3k0snY

Dynamic Pedal Resonance Modeling
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vkMcSEkXoe8


Last edited by PianoZac; 08/20/14 06:40 PM.

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Re: Playing the Avant Grandes & CLP585 [Re: Chris Warren] #2318064
08/21/14 08:20 AM
08/21/14 08:20 AM
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R_B Online content
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Well, at least SOMEONE read and understood the "on SOUND ONLY" clause.

and OF COURSE the "Playing experience" is different on a physical vs electronic piano.
Just as the "driving experience" is different in a 1949 whatever make/model automobile.
Personally I would rather have ABS discs all round, radial ply tires, air conditioning, on and on, but that is a (slightly) different rat hole from the fact that I don't want to allocate space to a large piece of musical furniture that has "needs" of its own and a cost disproportionate to its utility.
Top o' the heap wooden piano vs top o' the heap electronic piano is probably about 50:1 dollar ratio - I have spending opportunities for the other 49 :-)


Last edited by R_B; 08/21/14 09:41 AM.
Re: Playing the Avant Grandes & CLP585 [Re: R_B] #2318328
08/21/14 10:15 PM
08/21/14 10:15 PM
Joined: Apr 2014
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Ratio for me was more like 2.5 to 1.

So what did that extra 1.5 get me? An instrument that I love to play and hear played, as opposed to something that I hated.

So that extra 1.5 not only got me something, it actually got me everything.


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Re: Playing the Avant Grandes & CLP585 [Re: Chris Warren] #2318708
08/22/14 07:36 PM
08/22/14 07:36 PM
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Hey, that is GREAT !

Wondering where the giant leap comes in though...
$4,000 would get a fairly up scale digital, $10,000 might get a somewhat marginal wooden piano.

From what I understand of the Steinway market good rebuilt or used Ms and Os are ~$20K and up.
I would expect a LOT of change from $8K on a very good DP.

Of course, what is good for one person may be less good for someone else.

Last edited by R_B; 08/22/14 09:08 PM.
Re: Playing the Avant Grandes & CLP585 [Re: R_B] #2318811
08/23/14 06:04 AM
08/23/14 06:04 AM
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maurus Offline
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Originally Posted by R_B
Well, at least SOMEONE read and understood the "on SOUND ONLY" clause.


Define "SOUND ONLY".

Do you mean this: You sit in a room, eyes closed, and listen to:

(a) someone playing an acoustic piano in the room;
(b) someone playing a digital piano (or the like) in the *same* room.

I bet you mean something else.




Re: Playing the Avant Grandes & CLP585 [Re: R_B] #2319716
08/25/14 03:28 PM
08/25/14 03:28 PM
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Posts: 41
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TrollToddington Offline
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Originally Posted by R_B
Hey, that is GREAT !
Wondering where the giant leap comes in though...
$4,000 would get a fairly up scale digital, $10,000 might get a somewhat marginal wooden piano.
You are exaggerating 'a lil bit', aren't you. 10k Euros would buy you an upper class upright Petroff, a leading company in Europe. The sound coming from that piano is huge and I'd have bought that instrument in a heartbeat had I played more regularly.

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