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Re: Schumann's Difficulty [Re: TwoSnowflakes] #2316692
08/17/14 07:26 PM
08/17/14 07:26 PM
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Posts: 9,022
Phoenix, Arizona
Carey Offline
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Originally Posted by TwoSnowflakes
Ha, go for it. But seriously, by saying a composer is an "aspirational gateway" I don't mean to say that any particular piece is my main aspiration, only that once I'm good enough to attempt any Rachmaninoff, I feel like I've passed through a gateway of sorts in terms of skill level. Even if, once I'm through that gateway, it's Schumann I aspire to play. That's not the case with Schumann because there's a reasonable amount to play starting at a moderate level, so "getting to Schumann" has less of a gateway feel to me.

I'm sure I'll feel the same about Liszt, even though I'm actually not a huge fan of much of his music. But once I get good enough that the study of any Liszt is a pedagogically appropriate, I'll feel incredibly gratified. It'll mean I can feel legitimately close to being ready for some of those dream pieces I never permitted myself the luxury of getting to study.

Does that make sense?
Perfect sense !! However, Liszt wrote a few things that are accessible to intermediate level pianists - so it may be possible for you to break through that "aspirational gateway" right now. Case in point..... wink
http://youtu.be/cq5pS5NRzzk


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Re: Schumann's Difficulty [Re: Francisco Scalco] #2316698
08/17/14 07:40 PM
08/17/14 07:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Francisco Scalco
Carey, I'm not comparing him to other composers, I believed this comparison already existed. I'm not agreeing with it. I don't think of him as a 'difficult composer': my idea of one has to do with what twosnowflakes already said.
But well, seeing this whole thing was in my head, I'll stop and say I'm wrong. However, I still believe that there's something weird about the reception to Schumann's music. Seeing the responses in this thread, this may be a personal issue, concerning my specific environment (Brazil).
But thank you all for your responses!

It is often remarked that certain composers are rated differently in different countries - why this is so is not evident. (Bach, Mozart and Beethoven are rated highly in all countries that have a Western classical audience).

Schumann is certainly one of these 'unfortunate' ones. His symphonies are almost guaranteed to empty concert halls in the UK and USA, but fill them to the brim in Germany and Austria. But his piano music (including his piano concerto, but not violin or cello concerto) is always popular with audiences in the UK, who can't hear enough of his Fantasy in C, Carnaval, Kreisleriana, Kinderszenen, Op.12 Fantasiestücke, Symphonic Etudes....but not so much his Davidsbündlertänze, or Papillons or Humoreske or Bunte Blätter.


"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
Re: Schumann's Difficulty [Re: bennevis] #2316710
08/17/14 08:01 PM
08/17/14 08:01 PM
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Phoenix, Arizona
Carey Offline
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Originally Posted by bennevis
It is often remarked that certain composers are rated differently in different countries - why this is so is not evident. (Bach, Mozart and Beethoven are rated highly in all countries that have a Western classical audience).
I don't travel much - so this is a fairly new concept to me. ha

Quote
Schumann is certainly one of these 'unfortunate' ones. His symphonies are almost guaranteed to empty concert halls in the UK and USA, but fill them to the brim in Germany and Austria.
True. (I did live in Germany for a time.)
Quote
But his piano music (including his piano concerto, but not violin or cello concerto) is always popular with audiences in the UK, who can't hear enough of his Fantasy in C, Carnaval, Kreisleriana, Kinderszenen, Op.12 Fantasiestücke, Symphonic Etudes....but not so much his Davidsbündlertänze, or Papillons or Humoreske or Bunte Blätter.
Pretty much the case in the USA as well - with the exception of Papillons which seems fairly popular here.

I wonder how Brahms fares in Brazil. grin

Last edited by carey; 08/17/14 08:02 PM.

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Re: Schumann's Difficulty [Re: TwoSnowflakes] #2316718
08/17/14 08:12 PM
08/17/14 08:12 PM
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New York City
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Polyphonist Offline
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Originally Posted by TwoSnowflakes
Originally Posted by Louis Podesta
I say this with love in my heart, but have any of you sexist pigs ever considered the fact that the actual pianist who first played (and show-cased) these works was a seasoned concert pianist by the name of Clara?

Shame on you.

Why or how else would he have had the luxury of writing works at this level?

Clara Schumann did not have just something to do with his success as a composer, she had everything to do with it!


I'm really not clear where the sexism has been here.

Perhaps Louis was being sarcastic?


Regards,

Polyphonist
Re: Schumann's Difficulty [Re: Carey] #2316726
08/17/14 08:37 PM
08/17/14 08:37 PM
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TwoSnowflakes Offline
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Originally Posted by carey
Originally Posted by TwoSnowflakes
Ha, go for it. But seriously, by saying a composer is an "aspirational gateway" I don't mean to say that any particular piece is my main aspiration, only that once I'm good enough to attempt any Rachmaninoff, I feel like I've passed through a gateway of sorts in terms of skill level. Even if, once I'm through that gateway, it's Schumann I aspire to play. That's not the case with Schumann because there's a reasonable amount to play starting at a moderate level, so "getting to Schumann" has less of a gateway feel to me.

I'm sure I'll feel the same about Liszt, even though I'm actually not a huge fan of much of his music. But once I get good enough that the study of any Liszt is a pedagogically appropriate, I'll feel incredibly gratified. It'll mean I can feel legitimately close to being ready for some of those dream pieces I never permitted myself the luxury of getting to study.

Does that make sense?
Perfect sense !! However, Liszt wrote a few things that are accessible to intermediate level pianists - so it may be possible for you to break through that "aspirational gateway" right now. Case in point..... wink
http://youtu.be/cq5pS5NRzzk


Ooh, dig it! Non-bravura Liszt!

Well, now I just need a new aspirational gateway composer. I'm taking nominations.

Re: Schumann's Difficulty [Re: Francisco Scalco] #2316727
08/17/14 08:42 PM
08/17/14 08:42 PM
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Scottsdale, AZ
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Here's the enigma of Schumann pieces to me:

After listening to Schumann's Carnaval by Olga kern, I was ecstatic and told myself "Yep,that's the piece I'm gonna play someday when I get better". A few days later I heard Carnaval performed by another pianist who obviously plays much better than most of people I know. However, this time around it sounded so overly complex and brainy. Did not move me. I started having headache towards the end and told myself "now that's the piece I will never play in my life"

I cannot figure out why. It may be just me

Last edited by FarmGirl; 08/17/14 09:08 PM.

1) Bach c minor fantasy
2) Morzart Rondo in A minor, K511
3) Schubert Impromptu A flat D935 No2
4) Scriabin op11 prelude #2 and #14 (Re do #2, new #14)
5) kabalevsky Variations in A minor OP 40-2
Re: Schumann's Difficulty [Re: TwoSnowflakes] #2316730
08/17/14 08:51 PM
08/17/14 08:51 PM
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Posts: 452
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Francisco Scalco Offline OP
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Originally Posted by TwoSnowflakes
Originally Posted by carey
Originally Posted by TwoSnowflakes
Ha, go for it. But seriously, by saying a composer is an "aspirational gateway" I don't mean to say that any particular piece is my main aspiration, only that once I'm good enough to attempt any Rachmaninoff, I feel like I've passed through a gateway of sorts in terms of skill level. Even if, once I'm through that gateway, it's Schumann I aspire to play. That's not the case with Schumann because there's a reasonable amount to play starting at a moderate level, so "getting to Schumann" has less of a gateway feel to me.

I'm sure I'll feel the same about Liszt, even though I'm actually not a huge fan of much of his music. But once I get good enough that the study of any Liszt is a pedagogically appropriate, I'll feel incredibly gratified. It'll mean I can feel legitimately close to being ready for some of those dream pieces I never permitted myself the luxury of getting to study.

Does that make sense?
Perfect sense !! However, Liszt wrote a few things that are accessible to intermediate level pianists - so it may be possible for you to break through that "aspirational gateway" right now. Case in point..... wink
http://youtu.be/cq5pS5NRzzk


Ooh, dig it! Non-bravura Liszt!

Well, now I just need a new aspirational gateway composer. I'm taking nominations.


Stravinsky! I don't know if that's of your interest, but here's a composer who's not complacent with the humble beginner. It's just straight up Petrouchka, or his sonata. What a bastard. laugh

Re: Schumann's Difficulty [Re: beet31425] #2316742
08/17/14 09:33 PM
08/17/14 09:33 PM
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 9,373
Pacific Northwest, US.
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argerichfan Offline
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Originally Posted by beet31425

I don't think people generally think Schumann's music is "so difficult".

Oh dear, my good mate. The Symphonic Etudes was the last major piano piece I studied at uni before moving on to church music. I shudder to think how stupid I was at the time for taking on such a difficult fresco. Listening to my performance 14 years later -oh the pain- what was I thinking? (I did get the notes at least.)

Ah, youth, terribly wasted on the young, thanks Oscar Wilde.

Several years ago I heard Stephen Hough play the Carnival in recital. Apparently he ran out of steam towards the end, maybe he was merely having a bad day, but it was hard to overlook a sense of fatigue.

In some aspects, I think Schumann as challenging as anything in Chopin or Liszt.


Jason
Re: Schumann's Difficulty [Re: argerichfan] #2316799
08/18/14 01:32 AM
08/18/14 01:32 AM
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DonaldLee Offline
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Originally Posted by argerichfan


In some aspects, I think Schumann as challenging as anything in Chopin or Liszt.


I would say more difficult. Chopin and Liszt are quite comfortable in the hands when played correctly. Schumann's music, for me and most of my peers at school, is quite clumsy in the hands, and always feels a bit awkward.


Donald Lee III
BM '16 James Madison University
MM '18 Cincinnati Conservatory of Music


Re: Schumann's Difficulty [Re: FarmGirl] #2316811
08/18/14 03:47 AM
08/18/14 03:47 AM
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Posts: 924
Seattle, WA
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MarkH Offline
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Originally Posted by FarmGirl
I started having headache towards the end and told myself "now that's the piece I will never play in my life"


That actually happens to me a lot with Schumann, especially with Carnival. One piano teacher and I discussed this, and he suggested that it had to do with the monotonousness of Schumann's rhythms. Once he falls upon a rhythm he likes, he can often repeat it wayyyyyyy too many times in a way that pierces my brain.

I think he may indeed be more difficult than Chopin and Liszt for example, because their music is well-composed enough that it often "plays itself", whereas Schumann's requires very careful effort to make it work at all.

Re: Schumann's Difficulty [Re: DonaldLee] #2316865
08/18/14 08:10 AM
08/18/14 08:10 AM
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Donald, that's the one thing I've always thought about Schumann as well, in reviewing this thread. In several of the major works, I seem to run physically out of gas -- and I think it's because of the cumulative effect of negotiating too many awkward passages as part of the proposition. Musically, they make sense, and so I'm not criticizing him exactly -- but I've found that I need to plot out a strategy to get from the beginning to the end gracefully. You've got to be physically strong to play Schumann well, IMO!

Re: Schumann's Difficulty [Re: Francisco Scalco] #2316896
08/18/14 09:59 AM
08/18/14 09:59 AM
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Philadelphia, PA
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Originally Posted by Francisco Scalco
Originally Posted by TwoSnowflakes


Well, now I just need a new aspirational gateway composer. I'm taking nominations.


Stravinsky! I don't know if that's of your interest, but here's a composer who's not complacent with the humble beginner. It's just straight up Petrouchka, or his sonata. What a bastard. laugh


I'm told Ravel is really hard too.


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Re: Schumann's Difficulty [Re: DonaldLee] #2316898
08/18/14 10:15 AM
08/18/14 10:15 AM
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Quote
I would say more difficult. Chopin and Liszt are quite comfortable in the hands when played correctly. Schumann's music, for me and most of my peers at school, is quite clumsy in the hands, and always feels a bit awkward.
I just read this thread from the beginning, and was wondering when someone would mention this. I agree about the awkwardness(es).

Re: Schumann's Difficulty [Re: RealPlayer] #2316916
08/18/14 11:16 AM
08/18/14 11:16 AM
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Originally Posted by RealPlayer
Quote
I would say more difficult. Chopin and Liszt are quite comfortable in the hands when played correctly. Schumann's music, for me and most of my peers at school, is quite clumsy in the hands, and always feels a bit awkward.
I just read this thread from the beginning, and was wondering when someone would mention this. I agree about the awkwardness(es).

I feel that way about most of the germanic composers... Beethoven, Schumann, Brahms... they are never (with the exception of Brahms; because of different times I believe) pianistic, always very orchestral. I get the impression they weren't composing music -for- the piano. Which is why I love it so much. laugh

Re: Schumann's Difficulty [Re: Francisco Scalco] #2316931
08/18/14 11:36 AM
08/18/14 11:36 AM
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Hmm, I chalked up the "interesting" navigational issues in Schumann to just not being terribly advanced in general, but maybe it's just Schumann. On the other hand, once I had those down, the pieces were generally comfortable. Now, of course, I'm not playing Schumann's very advanced works.

The Brahms I'm playing feels very broad under the hands in the way that Chopin does not. In fact, I have to very deliberately prevent keeping my hands way stretched out. I seem to want to stay prepared for it all, and over time that is fatiguing, and after a bit more time, a bit achy, in fact.

Re: Schumann's Difficulty [Re: TwoSnowflakes] #2316947
08/18/14 12:19 PM
08/18/14 12:19 PM
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Louis Podesta Offline
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Originally Posted by TwoSnowflakes
Originally Posted by Louis Podesta
I say this with love in my heart, but have any of you sexist pigs ever considered the fact that the actual pianist who first played (and show-cased) these works was a seasoned concert pianist by the name of Clara?

Shame on you.

Why or how else would he have had the luxury of writing works at this level?

Clara Schumann did not have just something to do with his success as a composer, she had everything to do with it!


I'm really not clear where the sexism has been here.

And I say this as a huge fan of Clara Schumann (I'm reading a book written entirely about her right now, in fact) and as a person with a comprehensive and lifelong familiarity with being female.

I don't believe we were mainly wondering why he wrote exceptionally difficult works, but whether he wrote them in greater or lesser proportion to other composers.

Unlike Schubert, who could have cared less if he or anyone else could play his late Sonatas, some composers cared a great deal about how their works would actually sound.

With Brahms, when he was older, he would climb up four flights of stairs to get to young Moritz Rosenthal's apartment so he could have the young pianist play some of his works that he no longer could.

With Schumann, he had the woman he had loved, since she was twelve years old, to flesh out any technical problem or compositional idea. There is simply no way a man who was severely mentally ill, with a bunged up fourth finger to boot, would have composed what he did without a lover/wife/concert pianist at his beckon call.

Re: Schumann's Difficulty [Re: Louis Podesta] #2316962
08/18/14 01:14 PM
08/18/14 01:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Louis Podesta

Unlike Schubert, who could have cared less if he or anyone else could play his late Sonatas...

So... you're saying that Schubert did care? At least you're saying his caring level was > 0... smile


-J


Beethoven op.110, Chopin op.27/2, Liszt Vallée d'Obermann
Re: Schumann's Difficulty [Re: beet31425] #2316964
08/18/14 01:19 PM
08/18/14 01:19 PM
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Originally Posted by beet31425
Originally Posted by Louis Podesta

Unlike Schubert, who could have cared less if he or anyone else could play his late Sonatas...

So... you're saying that Schubert did care? At least you're saying his caring level was > 0... smile


-J

There is probably a way he could have cared less......for example, if it were a cold night, and his toes were frigid, he would probably care even less whether people could play his songs. Cold toes are important!


Poetry is rhythm
Re: Schumann's Difficulty [Re: phantomFive] #2316965
08/18/14 01:24 PM
08/18/14 01:24 PM
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Originally Posted by phantomFive
Originally Posted by beet31425
Originally Posted by Louis Podesta

Unlike Schubert, who could have cared less if he or anyone else could play his late Sonatas...

So... you're saying that Schubert did care? At least you're saying his caring level was > 0... smile


-J

There is probably a way he could have cared less......for example, if it were a cold night, and his toes were frigid, he would probably care even less whether people could play his songs. Cold toes are important!


I'm understanding now. So, I think Louis's point was that Schubert had warm toes, but Schumann had particularly cold toes. Maybe that's why he wrote such difficult music?


Beethoven op.110, Chopin op.27/2, Liszt Vallée d'Obermann
Re: Schumann's Difficulty [Re: Francisco Scalco] #2317010
08/18/14 03:36 PM
08/18/14 03:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Francisco Scalco
Originally Posted by TwoSnowflakes

Well, now I just need a new aspirational gateway composer. I'm taking nominations.


Stravinsky! I don't know if that's of your interest, but here's a composer who's not complacent with the humble beginner. It's just straight up Petrouchka, or his sonata. What a bastard. laugh

Objection! wink
Les cinq doigts is works for beginners. The right hand always stays on the same keys.


Everything is possible, and nothing is sure.
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