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I have a hard time applying Protek CLP to the hammer flanges without unscrewing the entire hammer mechanism. My current syringe has a thin needle that is about 4-5 cm long, but I need it to be more like 12 cm long.
I can't seem to find anywhere in my country (Denmark) to buy it. Do you know of an online seller in the EU that have this? Or could some of you guys in the US sell me one and send it?
Nordiska 120CA (Dongbei) upright from about 2004, Kawai MP11 digital piano, Sennheiser HD 600 headphones.
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I use a 1ml disposable plastic pipette, but I don't dispose it. Maybe your pharmacists could supply one.
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I have a hard time applying Protek CLP to the hammer flanges without unscrewing the entire hammer mechanism. My current syringe has a thin needle that is about 4-5 cm long, but I need it to be more like 12 cm long.
I can't seem to find anywhere in my country (Denmark) to buy it. Do you know of an online seller in the EU that have this? Or could some of you guys in the US sell me one and send it? Yes piano reparation is a hard job do not put it on the plate that hold the center, nor on the butt wood.
Last edited by Olek; 08/15/14 07:25 AM.
Professional of the profession. Foo Foo specialist I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
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Maybe my technique is wrong?
I want to apply CLP to all the hammer flanges (and preferably wippen flanges, damper flanges etc).
I take the action out and put it on it's end vertically on the floor so that it I can apply CLP and let gravity pull the CLP into the flange. And so I can take care of all hammers in one go instead of having to unscrew each hammer.
The problem is that it is hard to reach the hammer flange from either side with my current needle of 5 cm. It has to be longer.
A pipette will not work at all? It is far too big to fin in between the hammer butts where the flange is. A pipette is fine if the hammer is already taken out of the action, but so is my current needle.
In other words, how do I treat all my hammer flanges at once? Do you have a better idea?
Nordiska 120CA (Dongbei) upright from about 2004, Kawai MP11 digital piano, Sennheiser HD 600 headphones.
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Go to an apothecary, or wherever they dispense medicine in your country, and buy a syringe with a long needle?
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Can we know why do you want to lube those centers ?
Professional of the profession. Foo Foo specialist I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
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You might try a place that sells feed and supply for livestock. I was able to find a large syringe at my local feed store. They use them to give shots to horses and cows.
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Thin plastic tubing (like the thing that comes on the WD 40 cans) works very well as a pipette. It's easier for me to control than a syringe which has a nasty tendency to dump an unwanted amount all at once.
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Go to an apothecary, or wherever they dispense medicine in your country, and buy a syringe with a long needle? I tried that, but they did not have 10-12 cm long needles, and the needles were not thin enough either.
Nordiska 120CA (Dongbei) upright from about 2004, Kawai MP11 digital piano, Sennheiser HD 600 headphones.
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Can we know why do you want to lube those centers ? Because they move sluggishly. If I press certain keys slowly, the hammer just stays close to the strings instead of falling back. If I press a key and move the hammer to the strings, the hammer does not fall back by itself. It creates bubbling and it affects tone also that the hammer stays for too long at the strings. It also affects repetition that the action returns slowly. I treated one of the hammer flanges with CLP and I also increased the tension of the hammer butt (return?) spring. It solved the problem. This key now has smoother, more controllable movement, faster return and repetition, less bubbling and better tone. But it is hard to do with all 88 hammers. I had to unscrew that hammer to apply the CLP and especially to increase the tension of the spring.
Nordiska 120CA (Dongbei) upright from about 2004, Kawai MP11 digital piano, Sennheiser HD 600 headphones.
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I don't use CLP.
I have no doubt that CLP can be a huge time saver in some situations, however I view its application a shortcut and potential future liability. If you want a shortcut, I would go with alcohol, since it has the power to resize the bushings and then evaporate away. If the pins truly needed to be lubed, then they should be removed, polished, lubed (dry-based), and then installed--the lube shouldn't spread throughout the felt and wood.
If hammers stay close to the strings instead of falling back, then CLP is not the answer anyway: a full action repining is in order. If the condition of the bushing felts are still workable, I'd start over with sizing them all of the bushings with alcohol and/or heat (i.e., out of the bird's-eye and with different pins). Once they are done drying to a uniform consistency, one can reinstall the entire set with an appropriate size pin for both the bird's-eyes and the bushings with minimal adjustments. NOTE: make sure you mic and group your pins, as they can/will differ substantially.
If the bushings are too gunked-up from technicians applying various treatments to them over the years, then start anew by replacing the felt bushings, followed by the sizing and repining.
FYI: I polish my pins with Flitz (i.e., aluminium oxide polish), and sometimes coat with a quality dry based lubricant (e.g., teflon).
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I was following the advice from Marco Igrec's book "Pianos inside out". Before regulation, he recommends lubing various parts of the action, including the hammer flanges, with CLP.
And as I wrote, it seems to have worked "permanently" on the hammer where I tried it. I guess alcohol is a good idea too. In this case, I would have to unscrew each wippen and hammer. Maybe I should do this anyway, even if I use CLP. This would also enable me to increase the tension of the hammer spring.
Last edited by pinkfloydhomer; 08/15/14 02:54 PM.
Nordiska 120CA (Dongbei) upright from about 2004, Kawai MP11 digital piano, Sennheiser HD 600 headphones.
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I was following the advice from Marco Igrec's book "Pianos inside out". Before regulation, he recommends lubing various parts of the action, including the hammer flanges, with CLP.
And as I wrote, it seems to have worked "permanently" on the hammer where I tried it. I guess alcohol is a good idea too. In this case, I would have to unscrew each wippen and hammer. Maybe I should do this anyway, even if I use CLP. This would also enable me to increase the tension of the hammer spring. I doubt Mario himself lube all centers with CLP as he say, the book is as Reblitz power ten, with much very good thoughts and points, but the same recollection of typical US piano technology tips that do not really apply here. This is probably due to the interviewing of the tech that are mostly based in USA. I also find mistakes (false info or idea), but the book is so nice I prefer not to talk about them. CLP is an addictive product, you may need to add more an more regularly .Unless a consistent pinning nee to be a little more free, I see no real use for it. AT some point it turns to Teflon (hard synthetic material) . Treated hammer flanges are more prone to have the centers pulling out than if no CLP have been used. I have seen that on numerous occasions (when I was using CLP in music schools) As migrating centers is yet the typical disease of vertical pianos, no nee to facilitate that.
Professional of the profession. Foo Foo specialist I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
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Joined: Mar 2008
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Can we know why do you want to lube those centers ? Because they move sluggishly. If I press certain keys slowly, the hammer just stays close to the strings instead of falling back. If I press a key and move the hammer to the strings, the hammer does not fall back by itself. It creates bubbling and it affects tone also that the hammer stays for too long at the strings. It also affects repetition that the action returns slowly. I treated one of the hammer flanges with CLP and I also increased the tension of the hammer butt (return?) spring. It solved the problem. This key now has smoother, more controllable movement, faster return and repetition, less bubbling and better tone. But it is hard to do with all 88 hammers. I had to unscrew that hammer to apply the CLP and especially to increase the tension of the spring. at that point, not a Clp job, alcohol moisture first to size the parts a repair that is "definitive" mean the parts are ok for 5 10 years , generally way more what you see is the result, it does not mean the partsare functionning normally
Professional of the profession. Foo Foo specialist I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
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Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 2,326
2000 Post Club Member
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I have a hard time applying Protek CLP to the hammer flanges without unscrewing the entire hammer mechanism. My current syringe has a thin needle that is about 4-5 cm long, but I need it to be more like 12 cm long.
I can't seem to find anywhere in my country (Denmark) to buy it. Do you know of an online seller in the EU that have this? Or could some of you guys in the US sell me one and send it? It's a #17 to #24 spinal tap. I have an older one made from stainless steel. The newer ones are made to be disposable. When I happened to misplace my older one for a while I got a supply of the disposable ones from a customer of mine who happens to be an anesthesiologist.
Keith Akins, RPT Piano Technologist USA Distributor for Isaac Cadenza hammers and Profundo Bass Strings Supporting Piano Owners D-I-Y piano tuning and repair editor emeritus of Piano Technicians Journal
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Joined: Apr 2010
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I doubt Mario himself lube all centers with CLP as he say, the book is as Reblitz power ten, with much very good thoughts and points, but the same recollection of typical US piano technology tips that do not really apply here.
This is routine good practice here. What is different there? The product is the same . . . CLP is an addictive product, you may need to add more an more regularly .Unless a consistent pinning nee to be a little more free, I see no real use for it. AT some point it turns to Teflon (hard synthetic material) .
Not in my experience. With Protek CLP it is pretty much once and done. In the case of the dreaded verdigris the problem may come back after a while but I still find it long-lasting.
Keith Akins, RPT Piano Technologist USA Distributor for Isaac Cadenza hammers and Profundo Bass Strings Supporting Piano Owners D-I-Y piano tuning and repair editor emeritus of Piano Technicians Journal
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Not in my experience. With Protek CLP it is pretty much once and done. In the case of the dreaded verdigris the problem may come back after a while but I still find it long-lasting.
I started using CLP since about 2 years ago on those odd sluggish jack or hammer flanges in the field before deciding to pull things apart. It usually works almost instantly. When I get return calls in those cases then I will let yous know. Of course, those that don't respond get repined, and any workshop cases are always repined. I also find that a 1ml disposable pipette, which is about 10cm long and about 3mm thick, reaches in adequately to just about anywhere in the action without disassembly although the action may have to be removed.
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I was watching this video http://vimeo.com/21494671where he applies CLP at about 12:30. It shocked me a bit that he was just "pouring" it out on top of the wood part above the hammer flanges, instead if putting it more precisely on the ends of the flanges. I guess it works also. In my case, though, it is an upright piano. So it is not as easy to get to that part, even if I've taken the action out of the piano.
Nordiska 120CA (Dongbei) upright from about 2004, Kawai MP11 digital piano, Sennheiser HD 600 headphones.
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The only cases of Grand centers pulling out from the flange was from CLP treated parts.
I have nothing against lubing centers, but will not work with a product sold without clear explanation on its effect.
As I said, I stick with Renner method since I learned it. And have no problems up to now.
The tech that pour CLP does that because the action was a bit stiff from scratch, probably climate related. I think he should have first used the adjustment with water sizing, as of today he is in need to add CLP yearly. Himself confirmed me it is usually not the thing to do on a recent Renner action, as I asked. But sizing solutions ask you 8 hours time.
Last edited by Olek; 08/17/14 05:07 PM.
Professional of the profession. Foo Foo specialist I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
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Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 9,230
9000 Post Club Member
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Not in my experience. With Protek CLP it is pretty much once and done. In the case of the dreaded verdigris the problem may come back after a while but I still find it long-lasting.
I started using CLP since about 2 years ago on those odd sluggish jack or hammer flanges in the field before deciding to pull things apart. It usually works almost instantly. When I get return calls in those cases then I will let yous know. Of course, those that don't respond get repined, and any workshop cases are always repined. I also find that a 1ml disposable pipette, which is about 10cm long and about 3mm thick, reaches in adequately to just about anywhere in the action without disassembly although the action may have to be removed. Chris, re centering is due if the center is bad, worn, corroded. If not you can avoid yourself unnecessary work with sizing solace. After checking the pin conditions of course. The cloth do not wear usually but compress (case of too much play) If sluggish the level of freebies given by CLP is not that large, the part must be functional with just a hair more friction than wanted to use CLP. I had call back on a 3-4 weeks span before I understood that. Not very comfortable to leave stuck parts in the customers piano when living, but next day the problem is cured is assessed correctly from the start.
Last edited by Olek; 08/17/14 08:01 AM.
Professional of the profession. Foo Foo specialist I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
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