2017 was our 20th year online!

Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 3 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

Shop our online store for music lovers
SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
(ad)
Wessell Nickel & Gross
PianoForAll
(ad)
Best of Piano Buyer
 Best of Piano Buyer
(ad)
Faust Harrison Pianos
Faust Harrison 100+ Steinway pianos
Who's Online Now
33 members (CyberGene, Beowulf, bratner, CharlesXX, danyrc, Doug M., 9 invisible), 459 guests, and 448 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
Page 2 of 2 1 2
Re: Playing the Avant Grandes & CLP585
Chris Warren #2317497 08/19/14 08:50 PM
Joined: Mar 2014
Posts: 66
G
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
G
Joined: Mar 2014
Posts: 66
I both agree and disagree. Ultimately, even a real piano can sound crappy at the listening position, if the room is bad. Position the same piano in a great room, different results. I think playback systems can make a huge difference. It is not inconceivable that a surround sound algorithm with accurate and adequate amplification, speaker placement and quality, intimately twinned with state of the art sampling/modelling - could be far more cost effective. Especially with DSP. smile Just saying.

Last edited by GWILLY; 08/19/14 08:51 PM.
(ad)
Sweetwater Gifts That Rock
Re: Playing the Avant Grandes & CLP585
Chris Warren #2317579 08/20/14 03:10 AM
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 3,658
S
3000 Post Club Member
Offline
3000 Post Club Member
S
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 3,658
What none of the hybrids or DP's do, is recreate that rumble and resonance of something alive inside the cabinet when you push down the damper. Something in there to be tamed and mastered.

Maybe not everyone wants to hear, all or many of these these unmusical side effects of the real thing. But that's the first thing I notice in comparison when I sit at my teachers piano.

Re: Playing the Avant Grandes & CLP585
GWILLY #2317589 08/20/14 04:50 AM
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 3,751
T
3000 Post Club Member
Offline
3000 Post Club Member
T
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 3,751
Originally Posted by GWILLY
I both agree and disagree. Ultimately, even a real piano can sound crappy at the listening position, if the room is bad.


Indeed it can. That is one of the main indicators that you are listening to a piano and not a digital. A digital usually sounds perfect, like a recording, as was pointed out above.

You could argue that 95% or more of the quality of a piano is captured by the digital piano. It's the remaining 5% that's the problem and some, most but not all of that 5% is composed of crap.

The precise details of listening to an acoustic piano close up are still elusive, but they are lost to the audience in a concert hall or the CD listener, anyway.

Last edited by toddy; 08/20/14 04:51 AM.

Roland HP 302 / Samson Graphite 49 / Akai EWI

Reaper / Native Instruments K9 ult / ESQL MOR2 Symph Orchestra & Choirs / Lucato & Parravicini , trumpets & saxes / Garritan CFX lite / Production Voices C7 & Steinway D compact

Focusrite Saffire 24 / W7, i7 4770, 16GB / MXL V67g / Yamaha HS7s / HD598
Re: Playing the Avant Grandes & CLP585
spanishbuddha #2317591 08/20/14 04:55 AM
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 13,902
B
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
B
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 13,902
Originally Posted by spanishbuddha
What none of the hybrids or DP's do, is recreate that rumble and resonance of something alive inside the cabinet when you push down the damper. Something in there to be tamed and mastered.


Actually, that is simulated (and adjustable) on my V-Piano, and, it seems, on the new Rolands. See Jay Roland's demo video on the RD800 Turbo Start video thread, where he demonstrates exactly that 'rumble & resonance' when you step on the pedal.


"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
Re: Playing the Avant Grandes & CLP585
toddy #2317620 08/20/14 06:55 AM
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 100
P
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
P
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 100
Hi Toddy,

Originally Posted by toddy
Originally Posted by GWILLY
I both agree and disagree. Ultimately, even a real piano can sound crappy at the listening position, if the room is bad.


Indeed it can. That is one of the main indicators that you are listening to a piano and not a digital. A digital usually sounds perfect, like a recording, as was pointed out above.


I think Gwilly was referring to the impact of room acoustics, which affects both AP's and DP's.

Actually the sound from typical DP's point-source speakers can be affected by room acoustics more severely than the sound from an AP's extended soundboard.

Ciao,
Paolo


Yamaha CLP-970
Roland JV-1080
Re: Playing the Avant Grandes & CLP585
Paolo70 #2317629 08/20/14 07:34 AM
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 3,751
T
3000 Post Club Member
Offline
3000 Post Club Member
T
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 3,751
Originally Posted by Paolo70
Hi Toddy,

Originally Posted by toddy
Originally Posted by GWILLY
I both agree and disagree. Ultimately, even a real piano can sound crappy at the listening position, if the room is bad.


Indeed it can. That is one of the main indicators that you are listening to a piano and not a digital. A digital usually sounds perfect, like a recording, as was pointed out above.


I think Gwilly was referring to the impact of room acoustics, which affects both AP's and DP's.

Actually the sound from typical DP's point-source speakers can be affected by room acoustics more severely than the sound from an AP's extended soundboard.

Ciao,
Paolo


Yes - that's a good point. But I think we're all agreed that, what ever the acoustics, the real thing is different from the best digital set up.

I don't think it matters much, anyway, because for the past half century, recording engineers have been busy ironing out that last 5% of crap that the real piano experience gives you.

Digital piano makers - especially VST software producers - are now putting it back in again. This could be considered a healthy crossover, or something else.


Roland HP 302 / Samson Graphite 49 / Akai EWI

Reaper / Native Instruments K9 ult / ESQL MOR2 Symph Orchestra & Choirs / Lucato & Parravicini , trumpets & saxes / Garritan CFX lite / Production Voices C7 & Steinway D compact

Focusrite Saffire 24 / W7, i7 4770, 16GB / MXL V67g / Yamaha HS7s / HD598
Re: Playing the Avant Grandes & CLP585
spanishbuddha #2317863 08/20/14 05:31 PM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 1,528
P
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
P
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 1,528
Originally Posted by spanishbuddha
What none of the hybrids or DP's do, is recreate that rumble and resonance of something alive inside the cabinet when you push down the damper. Something in there to be tamed and mastered.


The Nord Pianos do a heck of a good job recreating this. It's actually pretty impressive as the sound changes with dynamics.

String Resonance Modeling (go to 2:07 in the video)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F4q--3k0snY

Dynamic Pedal Resonance Modeling
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vkMcSEkXoe8


Last edited by PianoZac; 08/20/14 05:40 PM.

Kawai MP7SE w/ GFP-3
Re: Playing the Avant Grandes & CLP585
Chris Warren #2318064 08/21/14 07:20 AM
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 969
R
R_B Offline
500 Post Club Member
Offline
500 Post Club Member
R
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 969
Well, at least SOMEONE read and understood the "on SOUND ONLY" clause.

and OF COURSE the "Playing experience" is different on a physical vs electronic piano.
Just as the "driving experience" is different in a 1949 whatever make/model automobile.
Personally I would rather have ABS discs all round, radial ply tires, air conditioning, on and on, but that is a (slightly) different rat hole from the fact that I don't want to allocate space to a large piece of musical furniture that has "needs" of its own and a cost disproportionate to its utility.
Top o' the heap wooden piano vs top o' the heap electronic piano is probably about 50:1 dollar ratio - I have spending opportunities for the other 49 :-)


Last edited by R_B; 08/21/14 08:41 AM.
Re: Playing the Avant Grandes & CLP585
R_B #2318328 08/21/14 09:15 PM
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 2,182
2000 Post Club Member
Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 2,182
Ratio for me was more like 2.5 to 1.

So what did that extra 1.5 get me? An instrument that I love to play and hear played, as opposed to something that I hated.

So that extra 1.5 not only got me something, it actually got me everything.


Yamaha C2X | Yamaha M500-F
Groucho Marx: "Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others."
Curriculum: Faber Developing Artist (Book 3)
Current: German Dance in D Major (Haydn) (OF); Melody (Schumann) (OF)
Re: Playing the Avant Grandes & CLP585
Chris Warren #2318708 08/22/14 06:36 PM
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 969
R
R_B Offline
500 Post Club Member
Offline
500 Post Club Member
R
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 969
Hey, that is GREAT !

Wondering where the giant leap comes in though...
$4,000 would get a fairly up scale digital, $10,000 might get a somewhat marginal wooden piano.

From what I understand of the Steinway market good rebuilt or used Ms and Os are ~$20K and up.
I would expect a LOT of change from $8K on a very good DP.

Of course, what is good for one person may be less good for someone else.

Last edited by R_B; 08/22/14 08:08 PM.
Re: Playing the Avant Grandes & CLP585
R_B #2318811 08/23/14 05:04 AM
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 1,415
M
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
M
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 1,415
Originally Posted by R_B
Well, at least SOMEONE read and understood the "on SOUND ONLY" clause.


Define "SOUND ONLY".

Do you mean this: You sit in a room, eyes closed, and listen to:

(a) someone playing an acoustic piano in the room;
(b) someone playing a digital piano (or the like) in the *same* room.

I bet you mean something else.




Re: Playing the Avant Grandes & CLP585
R_B #2319716 08/25/14 02:28 PM
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 50
T
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
T
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 50
Originally Posted by R_B
Hey, that is GREAT !
Wondering where the giant leap comes in though...
$4,000 would get a fairly up scale digital, $10,000 might get a somewhat marginal wooden piano.
You are exaggerating 'a lil bit', aren't you. 10k Euros would buy you an upper class upright Petroff, a leading company in Europe. The sound coming from that piano is huge and I'd have bought that instrument in a heartbeat had I played more regularly.

Page 2 of 2 1 2

Moderated by  Piano World 

Link Copied to Clipboard
(ad)
Pianoteq
Steinway Spiro Layering
(ad)
PianoDisc

PianoDisc
(ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad)
Mason & Hamlin Pianos
(ad) SWEETWATER Cyber Sale
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Hailun 218 vs Feurich 218
by Sonepica - 11/30/20 03:03 AM
The Search Continues--thoughts on Round Three?
by jmiley97302 - 11/29/20 11:15 PM
Why no enough like for Casio GP?
by Harpuia - 11/29/20 11:12 PM
My Yamaha P-515 Review / Impressions
by Chummy - 11/29/20 09:48 PM
New member! My apologies!
by ul7 - 11/29/20 07:24 PM
Download Sheet Music
Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads
Forum Statistics
Forums41
Topics203,154
Posts3,028,741
Members99,423
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
Please Support Our Advertisers


Faust Harrison 100+ Steinways

Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver

 Best of Piano Buyer

PianoTeq Bechstein
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads



 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter |


copyright 1997 - 2020 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.4