Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Adult Beginners Forum Have you had to fire your piano teacher? Why?

Then you take your business elsewhere.

Any working professional has the right to draw the line for him/herself.

You have it backwards...these are exactly the kinds of patients a doctor wants!

As for teachers choosing which students they teach, I think that is completely OK. Doctors choosing not to treat a patient in need is unethical because a person's well-being or even life is on the line. Not so with piano. In fact, if a teacher takes on a student whom they don't really want to teach, you end up with the OP's scenario, I think, or something very similar. Best to have a teacher be upfront in the beginning as to which kind of student they work best with, and free up the student (and their money) to go elsewhere.

It all depends on whether the so called "head knowledge" is not confined to a practical ability to play and convey it to someone else or not. There are schools that put an emphasis on theory and academic knowledge like Berkeley (not Berklee) which was recently rated the top school in the country and schools like San Francisco State (not even close to a top school) that put an emphasis on performance. I know a teacher who got their Masters from the former who can't play piano worth a damn and another with a Masters from the latter who is fantastically accomplished in both classical and jazz. Then there are schools that are good at both and also emphasize piano pedagogy like Juliard. Similarly, there are Music Ph.D's and there are Doctor's of Piano Performance.

Succeeding, even to Advanced Beginner requires a certain amount of organized and conceptional thinking, the lack of which my friend who teaches at the Yamaha Schools has seen the evidence of in many of the students that come to her in their having "[been] 'taught' in the haphazard way .....[and resulting] in their having weaknesses and problems."

Not where I come from actually. MOST working professionals do not have the pleasure of choosing their patients/clients/students...

When it comes to private piano teaching, surely the teachers are allowed to choose who they teach. But if they do a heavy selection, I don't think their quality as a teacher can be very well assessed by the results. If they can only make those students progress/excel that are easy to teach, I wouldnt say they are necessarily very good teachers.

Also, even though I am convinced that there are many natural aptitudes and traits that will be important in becoming a really good pianist, I also think these may be complete unnoticeable in the student due to inability to make use of them. This could be because of problems in other life areas, bad teaching, mental stress... Even after some time teaching the student, the teacher may not be able to reliably assess which problems are directly caused by lack of talents. The student may not respond to the teacher's teaching style at all and still not be able to bring out whatever talents he actually has. Same if the student is not able to come up with a working style that is suitable for his personal make up and the teacher cannot help.

I am not a teacher but am a member in a small theory study group. All of the members take piano lessons. While in the group some have been able to understand and learn things that they thought were just too difficult because their teachers couldn't make them understand. They were given exercises that were supposed to help and told to do them in a specific way. But in the end it was a matter of HOW to approach those problems intellectually in one's own natural learning style, not how difficult they were. The group helped because someone had gone through this already and could give suggestions different to the teacher's. This said I wouldn't even expect a teacher to be completely comfortable with any student who does not learn in the conventional style or the way they themselves did. But it would be good to realize this, instead of just assuming the student has no talent.

When I referred to (exclusive) head knowledge, I was talking about a teacher's ability to teach fundamental skills to a beginner - not a student's need to also learn the knowledge side of music. If your performance major or brilliant performer does not know how to build a groundwork, then his brilliance will not help the student. That's what I meant.

I didn't misinterpret you, Keystring, but a person needs head knowledge to organize the information regarding how he acquired his piano performance skills. We are in agreement about a "performance major or brilliant's performers" need to know how to build the ground work." But there are many great players(especially in jazz) who can't explain how the learned to do what they do and can't teach it -- I know because I tried taking lessons from them. My current teacher is both a performance major (Doctor of Piano Performance) and a brilliant performer. He is also a person who knows how to build the ground work and communicate this knowledge to me in a way I can understand.

Why don't you consider asking staff at your local music store who a good teacher is? Most of them play piano themselves. I then checked their suggestions by checking the teacher's qualifications on the national music registration's website, That is how I found my teacher.

My lessons with her often go over an hour as we both have a passion. She has never taught from the Alfred's adult series before as she mainly taught kids but after a few lessons she saw the benefit of the books and we are continuing with that now. She often gives me many technical critiques not mentioned in the books. So that means she can apply her knowledge to another method.

I mention this in the hope you can find someone similar as my teacher has been a great asset in the short time I have been learning. And she isn't even expensive.

Yes, if the doctor is paid for each consultation, each test he orders, each prescription he gives, which is the case in USA. There, he'll want the patients with the greatest number of chronic diseases....

Not so in the UK, with the National Health Service, where all consultations, tests and treatments are free at source. The 'best' patients are those who register with you and never see you for any ailments .

Incidentally, I have no issue with teachers not taking on specific students because they deem them to be too untalented, or whatever.

What I do have an issue with are those teachers who sack their students when they discover, after many lessons, that their students are untalented. If those students persistently don't 'do their homework', that's another matter. But that is not the same as dropping a student - especially an adult student - simply because he's not 'good enough'.

If any teacher can't understand why such an act could have consequences for the rest of the student's life, that teacher, IMO, has no business being a teacher. Reading through posts here and in the Piano Teacher's forum, I know there is one teacher for whom I'd discourage any potential student from going to.

Thank you for the explanation fizikisto, that does make perfect sense. I think it was the original use of the word "awful" that jolted me into commenting. Bennevis, I agree with your last comment too, I really agree that if a teacher can't see the consequences of their decisions then they shouldn't teach at all.

This is why the initial interview is so important. It is for me as well as the new student to hopefully determine if it's worth trying. I also have a trial period for most students so that after 8 weeks we both can decide to continue or part ways. After that, I tend to let the student decide when they should stop. I have only dismissed myself as a teacher a few times as it was necessary.Being "dumped" by a teacher can be an awful experience for a student, even if they aren't practicing or trying to improve.

In college my "calculus" professor was used to say that the measure of his skills was to get as many students to pass at the first exam, and his biggest challenge was to involve everybody to study consistently, while keeping the level of the class pretty high. We did have a lot of professor that tried to demotivate students, flunk them for any silly reason just to keep the name of being the "hard" one...
Teaching only to prodigy and geniuses is just proof of being a very poor teacher... exceptionally skilled persons will find their way with minimal instruction and a whole lot of instinct no matter what. Getting the challenging one to acceptable results is the real deal in teaching.
Unless your name is Haydn and you are trying to teach Beethoven... but I haven't seen any Haydn on this board yet ;-)

I have seen this same thing in so many endeavors. Physical training, Golf, Running. I myself, am finding the best are those who teach teachers. The greatest understanding is there. They are also the ones who come up with a way to teach everyone, regardless. The "untalented" need the best information as much as the most talented. Many are headed in a dead end without that input.

Just an example: A guy named Jack Daniels (no joke). He's a famous running trainer. Has written books. He talked about bad training out there for runners. He called it: "egg on the wall training". You take a bunch of eggs in your hand (the eggs are your runners) and you throw them up against a wall. The one you find on the ground that hasn't broken. That's your good one.

Does anyone think that egg on the wall training hasn't been practiced elsewhere? That it doesn't effect the student's life?

There is another guy who trains dogs. Brittany's. He has won several national titles with his dogs. He always trains "leftover" dogs. The last of the litter that all the "wise" people have passed over. And again.... he wins national titles with these dogs. His training is quite the opposite of 'egg on the wall' training.

I could keep giving examples.

I have a friend who started learning the piano about 10 years ago, after he retired.

He'd been interested in classical music and the piano all his life - he attends more piano recitals than I can manage - but never had the time to learn, until he retired. He started off with a cheap digital, and hired a teacher who specializes in teaching adults. Within a few weeks, he'd upgraded to a much better digital. Another couple of months, and he'd gone the whole hog - buying a Steinway upright (there was no space for a grand).

He started off with high hopes, intending to go through the ABRSM exams grade by grade. After six months, he and his teacher realized that his progress was very slow - his coordination was pretty poor, as was his sense of rhythm and pitch, and playing anything using two hands was a stop-start affair. They agreed that he'd just set his sights on eventually being able to play Chopin's Op.9/2 in a few years' time, and forget about exams.

He lives for his piano-playing: I'd guess that he spends most of his waking hours at his piano. I can just imagine how devastated he'd be if his teacher, who he now regards as his friend, dumped him......

The same goes for teachers who get "dumped" by their students. We invest far more into students than just showing up prepared to teach. I think of my student throughout the week, trying to think of a way to explain something in a manner they'll understand, or thinking of that perfect piece for them to work on next to further their progress, or what that next issue to tackle might be. Not every teacher is like this, but I think the good ones are. So it does hurt when a student decides to leave us. Still, I'd much rather it be that way than me doing the dismissing.

Jack Daniels's running books were my bible when I started running some 15 years ago - I learnt everything from fartlek to interval training to lactate threshold from him.

I was (and still am) a mediocre runner who'd never been sporty, until I decided I wanted to run the marathon in my late thirties. I bought many books, read up all about how to train, how to find the right kind of shoes, nutrition, the lot.

And I even had a coach, Frank Horwill, who trained elite athletes for national teams. Giving free advice to rank amateurs like myself was a sideline for him, but one he took seriously. We never met because he lived several hundred miles away, but we wrote to each other (or rather, I'd write to him with a query, and he'd reply by return post - but he refused to accept any payment, not even for expenses: this was before the advent of the internet).

In effect, he was my teacher, taking me through one race after another, one PR (=PB) after another in 5K, 10K, half-marathon, marathon, and shared in my joy when I achieved another PR. A PR that, by the standards of the athletes he normally coached, is simply laughably poor.

This is what comes to my mind when I read about piano teachers who discard students who have no musical talent, and/or don't reach the ideals of said teachers.......

I certainly agree that the teacher-student relationship is a two-way affair, especially when it comes to adult students.

Unless there's a really good reason, I believe that a student should stay with the same teacher.

Evgeny Kissin, one of today's foremost virtuosi, has had the same teacher since he was six.......

Wow, what a great summary of my thoughts!

My definition of a truly great teacher!

In the past 10 years, I've left 2 teachers. Both situations were awkward.

I left the first after 4 wonderful years because I outgrew him. My questions were either deflected or were left unanswered. I respected him a great deal so I was very anxious to part in a sensitive way. I set up an appointment out of lesson time, spoke to him and brought a gift. I gently told him I wanted a new perspective. I was extremely fond of him so I was very disappointed when he refused to maintain contact.

For the second teacher, the word "fired" applies. She was awful. I stuck it out for 10 months by telling myself she had a lot to teach me. She was regimental, inflexible and dictated exactly how everything must be played. Her entire focus was on how her competing youngsters reflected on her reputation. As an adult, I was given last choice on pieces to play and was reluctantly included in master classes. Firing her was a pleasure and a relief. I was too polite to tell her to her face that I couldn't stand her so I told her our goals were too different.

I've been with my current teacher for 4 years and am only mining the surface of what he has to offer. He's the best teacher I've ever had and I see no end in sight.

So, leaving a teacher for the right reasons is usually the best decision once you get past the awkwardness.

It's a shame that first teacher took it so badly. I can relate, but I always try to be understanding and keep the door open, even if I don't agree with the reasons for leaving.