Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Adult Beginners Forum Have you had to fire your piano teacher? Why?

MandyD
I don't think anybody is very good at piano when they begin. It's incredibly hard and it takes years of dedicated practice to get good. It's so worth it if you stick with it though. It is so much fun to play! In fact, they really chose that word well, play! It's like recess from when you were a little kid!

I'm a college professor (Physics not Music), and I'm a really good at it. But I do know that some students just don't mesh well with my teaching style. When I encounter that, I don't have any problem recommending to the student that they try a different teacher. Because I want the student to have the best possible experience with physics, and more importantly I want them to learn. If they have an easier time with a teacher that has a different style, my feelings aren't hurt one bit. And similarly, sometimes that other professor might have struggling students that would do much better in my class.

With regards to piano, I don't think the teacher has to say, "You're unworthy of me as a student." THAT would be really mean, unnecessary, and horrible. But I think they can explain that a different teacher might help them progress better and with less stress. Instead of "you suck!" it could be, "I think a different teacher might help you learn better."

And yes, some people might quit because of that I suppose. But I also think that continuing in a situation that is frustrating for both parties might also lead to that student quitting, whereas getting them a teacher better suited to their temperament and skill level might make it so much more fun for them that they do stick with it.

Let me put it another way. Imagine that you had a friend who just started teaching piano, and they told you, "I have this new student who just is not very good. Or maybe I'm just not very good at teaching them. I've tried everything I know to do to help them and nothing seems to be working. I feel like I'm just taking their money and not really helping them. I really think they might be better able to learn with a different teacher, but I'm afraid if I tell them that it might hurt their feelings." What would you advise them to do?

Ive seen a lot of people here on piano world talk about their struggles with finding the right teacher, but that when they did it made such a difference for them. And if you did have a teacher that suggested you find someone else, and you did find that right teacher for you, wouldn't you be grateful to them for their honesty?

I won't be surprised if my opinion is a minority opinion on this issue, but that's o.k. too. As I said, Opinions vary (otherwise it would be a really boring world!)

All that I'm really trying to say is that sometimes a teacher continuing to teach a student could actually be a disservice to that student. I don't think that means the teacher is objectively bad (they may be a great teacher for other students that match better with them), and I don't think the teacher is guilty of some sort of moral failing if they are honest about that.

In any case, that's my 2 cents worth.

Neatly dodging the question I posed originally.

Does a teacher sack a student who doesn't have sufficient talent, just so that he/she can maintain his/her reputation of all his/her students becoming very good?

You know I'm not really sure. I would like to think that most of the piano teachers out there are equipped to deal with both the struggling and exceptional student. It would also be nice to know what the teacher expectations are of their prospective students BEFORE they sign up.

I know for a fact that my teacher has both (I hope I'm in the middle somewhere )

I think that there are teachers and students out there that are more exceptional talents, and that I think is not the norm, especially in this forum.

My only issue is this: If you are an adult starting out on this journey, and if it turns out you have little natural ability in this regard, there HAS to be a teacher out there that can help move you along on your journey.

I would like to think that a majority of teachers out there are equipped to handle all kinds of talent levels, and that it would be a rare occurrence where a teacher lets a student go simply because they aren't "good enough".

Bennevis,
Sorry, I wasn't trying to dodge your question, I just got off on a tangent. I would say that a teacher that was motivated by his or her own reputation rather than the best interests of the student is not a very professional teacher and I certainly wouldn't want them as a teacher. I've seen that sort of thing a lot in martial arts, where some dojos only want students that are going to win trophies in tournaments and (therefore) enhance the reputation of the school. I find such schools, and attitudes, to be an anathema. Does that answer the question?

The broader point that I was trying, and perhaps failing, to make was that Just because a teacher lets a student go because of some mismatch, doesn't make that teacher a bad teacher or a bad person. Sure, there are some really terrible people who are also teachers. But I think that most people who enter that profession do so with a real desire to help their students learn.

BrianDx,
I think you're probably right, for most teachers and students there is probably enough of an overlap that these sorts of issues would never come up. The thing is, as I said EVERYONE struggles when they begin. And any teacher that teaches beginners is going to have to have a lot of patience. I'm not suggesting that some teacher should be like, "o.k., you flubbed ode to joy for the third time, I can't take this anymore!" But I do think that sometimes students and teachers just don't mesh for whatever reasons. I think that teachers should always try to be motivated by what is in the best interests of their students.

And on that thought we can agree

Hmmn, this all really got me thinking, since my teacher also teaches at the college where I take piano performance classes and since I searched long and hard for him. I have noticed that he will spend extra time above what I'm paying for my lesson to make sure I'm getting everything I need and he wants me to get. But I'm not sure he's doing it because he cares about his reputation. It seems like these extra long lessons often coincide with my playing my own ideas for an arrangement or improv that please or intrigue him. Also he has mentioned several times that he sees a lot of improvement since I started with him, so I think he's pretty happy with me as a student, and I think we have a mutual respect for each other's capabilities.

I tried to take piano lessons 20 years ago, and changed teachers four times (one after only a day) in less than two years and really never got anywhere with any of them. Now I feel I make progress after ever lesson. On the other hand, I stayed with my first teacher 20 years ago for over a year without feeling I was making much progress at all. So call it "firing" or "moving on", Piano lessons are expensive and there is no worse feeling than discovering that you've paid out all this money to fail and lose all the confidence and enthusiasm you had for the piano. Better to teach yourself. I can honestly say that even though I fell short as a teacher, I was at least the second best one I ever had.

I usually call it "dismissing myself as their teacher," or "referred them to another teacher that was a better fit." I agree the term "fire" implies subordination but also a lack of respect. An employee gets laid off if they are let go for reasons other than the employee's conduct, and fired if it's due to their conduct in some way. So "fired" really holds more than an unequal relationship, but also attaches a stigma to the person being "fired". In this case from what the OP describes, the term does seem appropriate for the latter case, but not the former as there was never a employer/employee relationship.

I see two issues in this thread. I'll weigh in on both of them.

1. Teachers can and should manage their teaching load and their reputation however they want.

2. Informal terms like 'fire' may be used casually but sometimes lack precision and create misunderstanding.

I agree with the teaching load entirely, however it is the teacher's sole responsibility to figure out what load they can handle.

The reputation part I have a REAL problem with. If a teacher is worrying about their reputation because one or more of their students are not progressing, sorry but that seems wrong to me.

I would even say, that a teacher's real "reputation" should be based on how the least of their students progress (even by very small amounts), not their finest.

This sounds like you are talking about reputation from a sort of 'great is their reward in heaven' perspective.

It seems to me like you are fine with teachers who, once they acquire enough students, jettison their worst ones to avoid tarnishing their reputations with 'no-hopers'.

In which case, people who have very little musical talent will only be able to get teachers who are so desperate for students that they'll take on anyone. In other words, the teachers just starting out, and the very inept ones whose students have mostly abandoned them....

My concerns exactly.

I think the good news is that most competent and dedicated teachers (many of whom post right here) feel that their profession is to teach all talent levels, young and small, beginners and experts alike. They derive satisfaction from all signs of improvement, and would never do anything unethical.

I agree that it is an unfortunate practice, but it isn't like torturing animals or arson or murder or drunk driving. It isn't even like holding extreme political views that differ from mine. To me it isn't even in the same league as driving a gas guzzling car, because being choosy about student's doesn't affect me at all and only affects the world a tiny bit.

I don't really see the difference between choosing to select "promising students" and a health care practitioner choosing a specialty, say a speech therapist who wanted a practice specializing in kids with autism who picked up some stutterers while trying to grow a caseload.

You really don't??

How about your doctor telling you that you're too old/fat/whatever and doesn't want to have you as a patient, because you'll be too much trouble?

That would be the doctor's prerogative.

Not where I come from.

Actually, smokers, heavy drinkers, hypertensives, diabetics...(the list goes on ad infinitum) could also be on the hit list......

You people are talking results. That, indirectly, is what caused me to leave my last teacher. The teacher herself was great. She wasn't immune to society. Where I took the lessons. A person kept coming up to the door of the room. I won't say who I think it was. And I don't care. There was pressure to hear results.
This also distracted me and made things worse. It was so obvious. One time when I had practiced and played for her only 6 bars, only right hand, of a well known piece I thought much of. This attitude was so obvious in the place that she stood up when I was done and yelled at the door: You got it! You got it all! All the dynamics! The hesitations were perfect! You got it!
She wanted to make sure everyone there heard her.
It wasn't her that caused me to leave.
The society here is a very in your face, results oriented society. They are experts at general knowledge and expertise in nothing. They strain at a knat while swallowing camels. There is nothing truly creative about them.
I now study a System that is great. A great truly accessible teacher who wrote it. I would never again consider taking any lessons around here unless they were very private.

I'm thinking that the question of teachers firing students should be in a different thread. It is a different topic and it stirs up emotions.

Otoh, in the present context there is some pertinence as follows:

If a student is being "taught" in the haphazard way that is being described here, then that student will end up having weaknesses and problems. He will come to the next teacher with those problems. It is not, like was mentioned, a matter of "talent" but a matter of missing skills. The next teacher needs to know how teach those skills, and patch the holes. If he doesn't know how to do that, then he should not be teaching that student. It is not a matter of the student not being "good enough" for the teacher, but the teacher not having the expertise for that particular thing.

Sort of on the same subject, I've seen a lot of references to things like PhD's. If you're at the beginning, you need someone who knows how to teach and give you the fundamentals - not a great performer or someone with tons of head knowledge.

If a teacher is only interested in "promising students" then that should be made clear at the beginning. Before starting lessons my wife and I were interviewed by our teacher in her home. Lots of question were asked on both sides. When it was done, both parties agreed to the lessons.

Almost a year later she has exceeded our wildest expectations. Hopefully we have a little bit ourselves.

Imagine for a minute you are an older adult and have made the decision to take lessons. You buy a piano, work hard (with 1,000 other things to do as well I reckon) and look for encouragement for your teacher. After six months she say to you "sorry but I'm dropping you because you are not good enough for my instruction". I'm thinking that could be very devastating to the adult student. It may affect his/her world a LOT perhaps.

If you still don't understand why that could be a potentially negative thing for a teacher to do, well, time to move to another thread,,,