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#2308732 - 07/29/14 08:23 PM Need progression lesson  
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 70
Maarkr Offline
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Maarkr  Offline
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Maine, USA
I came up with a chord progression, and I thought I should apply what LITTLE I know to learn more from it. It is Am/E, Em, Dsus4, D.
Can a I chord be a minor, or does it stay a minor (as a i or whatever)? Why are there no minor chords on the inside of the circle of fifths if a minor chord can be a I? Anyway, I guessed that this prog fits in the key of G (my I chord) and the prog is ii,vi,V,V, but i never see a double V,V annotated anywhere. So how do you annotate the progression?
I bought this Chord Wheel by Jim Fleser that does a good job of looking at progressions... but like most things, it's enough to get you confused about many other things. Of course, more discussion about progressions and the chord wheel are welcome.


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#2308746 - 07/29/14 09:27 PM Re: Need progression lesson [Re: Maarkr]  
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Morodiene Offline
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Morodiene  Offline
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Any chord with a capitalized roman numeral is major, and lower case is minor. The Dsus4 is not necessarily treated like a V chord, but annotated V4-3 (as in a 4-3 suspension on the V chord). This is digging up stuff from way back when, so I could be wrong. smile


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#2308765 - 07/29/14 10:31 PM Re: Need progression lesson [Re: Maarkr]  
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dmd Offline
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dmd  Offline
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I think the way you have described it is pretty much it.

As far as I know ...
It is a chord progression within the key of G and is a ii, vi, Vsus, V progression. Nothing more ... nothing less.





Don

Current: ES8, Focusrite Scarlett 2i4 audio device, SennHeiser HD598 Phones, Focal CMS 40 Powered Monitors, JBL LSR305 Powered Monitors
#2308992 - 07/30/14 02:23 PM Re: Need progression lesson [Re: Maarkr]  
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Posts: 316
RUSS SHETTLE Offline
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RUSS SHETTLE  Offline
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Brandywine, Maryland
Originally Posted by Maarkr
I came up with a chord progression, and I thought I should apply what LITTLE I know to learn more from it. It is Am/E, Em, Dsus4, D.
Can a I chord be a minor, or does it stay a minor (as a i or whatever)? Why are there no minor chords on the inside of the circle of fifths if a minor chord can be a I? Anyway, I guessed that this prog fits in the key of G (my I chord) and the prog is ii,vi,V,V, but i never see a double V,V annotated anywhere. So how do you annotate the progression?
I bought this Chord Wheel by Jim Fleser that does a good job of looking at progressions... but like most things, it's enough to get you confused about many other things. Of course, more discussion about progressions and the chord wheel are welcome.


Yes a minor chord can be the first progression chord. Your question pertains to the use of RNs.

I alone is MAJOR, whereas "i" is minor. That's the original RN establishment and still used in pure diatonic expressions of chords in a scale.

"Im" is the same as "i". Notice that I put "m" after the capital I. This way you use all caps.

So for the major chord scale expressed in RNs'

I ii iii IV V vi viio..... or all caps:
I IIm IIIm IV V VIm VIIo. (m) like with naming chords with letters, is use to indicate minor.

There is more to your question and that's further theory.

V/V means the 5 chord of the 5 chord. It's a stupid way of expressing a D Major chord in the Key of C. In the C Dm is the ii chord but when the 2-chord is major, traditional RN's would have you say V of V. So how is D V of V? Well V is G of C Right? D then is V of G. See how stupid it is when all you need to express in an RN is II, not IIm which would be minor for the 2 chord but II as to indicate major just as you would express letter chords by name. D versus Dm.


Russ
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#2309000 - 07/30/14 02:37 PM Re: Need progression lesson [Re: Maarkr]  
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RUSS SHETTLE Offline
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RUSS SHETTLE  Offline
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Posts: 316
Brandywine, Maryland
Quote
Why are there no minor chords on the inside of the circle of fifths if a minor chord can be a I


First a minor chord can't be "I" in the way you're thinking. It can be Im (minor) I refers to major.

Secondly I or Im or i is "1" chord if minor is then in a relative minor key and is modal and could also be modal as in Dorian for example.

The relative minor Key to any major is Aeolian in mode.

The circle of 5ths does not show chords. It is not about chords. It's about key signatures. It's merely a chart, by design, the number of sharps and flats are shown to increase from none to 7 based on 5ths. There are charts that show the same thing but not in a circle. It's just a chart.

C has 0 sharps. Go up a 5th to G, G has 1 sharp in it's signature. Keep going from there.

Flats go in the opposite direction from C. C has 0 flats, etc.

See what's happening?



Russ
Yamaha CP5
Casio PX130
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#2309096 - 07/30/14 07:45 PM Re: Need progression lesson [Re: Maarkr]  
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 70
Maarkr Offline
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Maarkr  Offline
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Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 70
Maine, USA
sorry, i guess i was mentally mixing up the actual 'circle of fifths' and the Chord Wheel I mentioned above, which is similar but different in concept because it arranges the key sigs with chords and helps me better understand progressions.

http://photo.goodreads.com/books/1180676064l/1064839.jpg



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#2309493 - 07/31/14 06:18 PM Re: Need progression lesson [Re: Maarkr]  
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 316
RUSS SHETTLE Offline
Full Member
RUSS SHETTLE  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 316
Brandywine, Maryland
Originally Posted by Maarkr
sorry, i guess i was mentally mixing up the actual 'circle of fifths' and the Chord Wheel I mentioned above, which is similar but different in concept because it arranges the key sigs with chords and helps me better understand progressions.

http://photo.goodreads.com/books/1180676064l/1064839.jpg



Oh yes, and there shows your relative minor chords as well.

Listen, don't get too hung up on these cute little illustrations. Know and understand our diatonic system of music. It is the fundamental core. Look at the chords for just one single key. Let's look at the key of C. Music is written in one key or another. You can think of it as meaning that all of the melody and chords to a song will be in one scale. Let's look at the key of C because it deals with just the white keys, no black keys

C Major Scale:

Note scale: C D E F G A B C... like you didn't know that.

OK, now lets look at the "chord scale":
C Dm Em F G Am Bdim.... Leave out the Bdim for a moment and we have 3 major chords and 3 minor chords to play with in the key of C.

And what is unique about all these chords again? Just the White keys! all white, right? How easy can that be. You can play a lot of songs with just those 6 chords and believe me there are a lot of songs out there that are "purely diatonic"!

Purely Diatonic? What does that mean? It means that the entire melody and chords to a song will belong to one key only and no deviation, 100% Diatonic! Again, in the Key of C that means nothing but the white keys.

Why did I pick the key of C again? Just the white keys.... right?

If we were looking at the key of E for example, we would have the same chord scale scenario but it would include 4 sharps or 4 of the 5 black keys. All else being the same in terms of scale notes and scale chords. You would see in the circle of 5ths the key of E having 4 sharps.

If you can understand just one single key you can understand all of them because the same rules apply to all of them in regard to the diatonic system. Written music or notation is designed and based around the diatonic system. That's why you see written music with a key signature. Blank or no signature just means the key of C because there are no sharps or flats to be identified.

You will also realize that in written music, the musical staff only accommodates for letter notes or all the white keys of a piano. Lines and spaces are devoted to only white key letter names of notes. What Key signature does is mark which notes must be flatted or sharped. That's a whole other discussion. The point is to show the reality of our diatonic system in music.

Give it a try. Play around in the key of C. Progression C F G. In Roman Numerals that you might have seen or read about that's your I IV V and guess what is true about those 3 perfect major chords?

The notes to those 3 chords make up the entire C Major scale. Think about this: Music is based around the Major Scale. Key signature is based on the major scale. The relative minor scale is a modal shift of the major scale. It's the same notes out of phase as are all modes of that one scale and in fact, the major scale is the first or primary mode itself called the Ionian scale.

Relative major and minor:

C Major scale: C D E F G A B C (Ionian)
A Minor scale: A B C D E F G A (Aeolian) ("natural" "relative minor" scale to C Major)

Same notes right? Just shifted. A Natural Minor is the Aeolian Mode.

When you finally see this diatonic system for yourself and realize how simple it really is you will finally see the forest for the trees in music. Music will no longer be a mystery. All you have to concentrate on for starters is the:

1. Major note scale
2. Major chord scale

This is fun stuff to learn.

Last edited by RUSS SHETTLE; 07/31/14 06:44 PM.

Russ
Yamaha CP5
Casio PX130
Yamaha AP Upright

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