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#2305705 - 07/23/14 01:10 AM 4/4 measure in 3/4 time?  
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Siegmunds Love Song from The Walkyrie by Wagner has in the 2nd 3/4 time section a measure that looks like a 4/4 measure in both hands.

What could this 4/4 measure without any 4/4 time signature preceding it in a 3/4 time section mean?

The section I am talking about is the one with the 16th note sextuplets.

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#2305709 - 07/23/14 01:20 AM Re: 4/4 measure in 3/4 time? [Re: caters]  
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I'm looking right at it, and don't see any measure like that.

Can you be more specific on which measure you mean? (I see various measures with sextuplets, and some that I guess might sort of 'look like' they're 4/4 but aren't, if you look real closely at the note values and rests; anyway I'm not sure that any of those are what you mean.)

#2305710 - 07/23/14 01:23 AM Re: 4/4 measure in 3/4 time? [Re: caters]  
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Mark....



Don't feed the troll.


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Polyphonist
#2305711 - 07/23/14 01:26 AM Re: 4/4 measure in 3/4 time? [Re: caters]  
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It is measure 56.

In the left hand it has a sixteenth note sextuplet followed by a quarter followed by 3 sixteenths followed by an eight rest followed by 3 16ths.

In the right hand it has a dotted eight followed by 4 32nds followed by 3 sixteenths and an eighth rest twice.

Both of these are the length of a 4/4 measure.

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#2305713 - 07/23/14 01:33 AM Re: 4/4 measure in 3/4 time? [Re: caters]  
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We must be counting the measures differently.

I'm counting m. 56 as the one before a switch to 9/8, and it doesn't match what you're saying. Are you sure it's 56?


Poly: Looks reasonable to me. As long as it's reasonable, it's reasonable.

#2305714 - 07/23/14 01:35 AM Re: 4/4 measure in 3/4 time? [Re: caters]  
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About 500 pianos.

#2305715 - 07/23/14 01:35 AM Re: 4/4 measure in 3/4 time? [Re: Mark_C]  
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Originally Posted by Mark_C
We must be counting the measures differently.

I'm counting m. 56 as the one before a switch to 9/8, and it doesn't match what you're saying. Are you sure it's 56?

Mark...see my above comment.


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Polyphonist
#2305717 - 07/23/14 01:37 AM Re: 4/4 measure in 3/4 time? [Re: Polyphonist]  
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OK -- you mean the whole thing is BS?

We'll see. If you're right, you were ahead of me. smile

#2305719 - 07/23/14 01:41 AM Re: 4/4 measure in 3/4 time? [Re: caters]  
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This is similar to Chopin Op. 54, bar 75 where it changes to 12/16 time.

#2305720 - 07/23/14 01:42 AM Re: 4/4 measure in 3/4 time? [Re: caters]  
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The book I am getting it from is Selected Piano Music which is no. 22 in Everybody's Favorite Series of music books and the 4/4 measure in 3/4 time is measure 56 in there.

#2305721 - 07/23/14 01:43 AM Re: 4/4 measure in 3/4 time? [Re: JoelW]  
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Originally Posted by JoelW
This is similar to a passage in Chopin Op. 54, bar 75. It changes to 12/16 time without any time signature preceding it.

That's not really a change.

Originally Posted by caters
The book I am getting it from is Selected Piano Music which is no. 22 in Everybody's Favorite Series of music books and the 4/4 measure in 3/4 time is measure 56 in there.

Dunno what to tell you -- I'm not seeing anything like that.

#2305722 - 07/23/14 01:46 AM Re: 4/4 measure in 3/4 time? [Re: Mark_C]  
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Originally Posted by Mark_C
Originally Posted by JoelW
This is similar to a passage in Chopin Op. 54, bar 75. It changes to 12/16 time without any time signature preceding it.

That's not really a change.

grin


Regards,

Polyphonist
#2305723 - 07/23/14 01:47 AM Re: 4/4 measure in 3/4 time? [Re: caters]  
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I counted wrong it's actually 15/8 time. But then a couple measures later it goes to 66/1 time. How are you supposed play that at tempo? You would need a lot of pianos.

#2305728 - 07/23/14 01:56 AM Re: 4/4 measure in 3/4 time? [Re: caters]  
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well I honestly counted how many quarters there is an equivalent of in that measure and the left hand had 4 quarters. It wasn't like a 4/4 3/4 polymeter or anything along those lines.

1st quarter, LH: sixteenth note sextuplet
1st quarter, RH: Dotted eighth followed by 2 32nds

2nd quarter, LH: quarter
2nd quarter, RH: 2 32nds followed by 3 sixteenths

3rd quarter, LH: 3 sixteenths followed by half of the eight rest
3rd quarter, RH: eighth rest followed by 2 sixteenths
4th quarter, LH: half of the eight rest followed by 3 sixteenths
almost a 4th quarter, RH: 1 sixteenth followed by eighth rest

Last edited by caters; 07/23/14 02:00 AM.
#2305729 - 07/23/14 01:56 AM Re: 4/4 measure in 3/4 time? [Re: caters]  
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caters isn't a troll. He just marches to the beat of his own drummer. (In a strangely notated time signature...)


-J


Beethoven op.110, Chopin op.27/2, Liszt Vallée d'Obermann
#2305730 - 07/23/14 02:01 AM Re: 4/4 measure in 3/4 time? [Re: caters]  
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Originally Posted by caters
The book I am getting it from is Selected Piano Music which is no. 22 in Everybody's Favorite Series of music books and the 4/4 measure in 3/4 time is measure 56 in there.


Well, remember that this is a transcription or an arrangement from what Wagner originally wrote for voice and orchestra. Unless we can see that exact transcription, there's no way we can adequately answer your question. It's even possible that the transcriber/arranger made a mistake, or that the editor made a printing error.

It's also possible, isn't it, that you have made a mistake?

Can you post an image of the page in question? If not, I don't think we can answer your question.

Regards,


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#2305821 - 07/23/14 09:18 AM Re: 4/4 measure in 3/4 time? [Re: caters]  
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Originally Posted by caters
In the right hand it has a dotted eight followed by 4 32nds followed by 3 sixteenths and an eighth rest twice.

I count 3 beats in this measure.

#2305903 - 07/23/14 11:48 AM Re: 4/4 measure in 3/4 time? [Re: the nosy ape]  
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Originally Posted by the nosy ape
Originally Posted by caters
In the right hand it has a dotted eight followed by 4 32nds followed by 3 sixteenths and an eighth rest twice.

I count 3 beats in this measure.


Right!

Break it down into thirty-second notes and you'll find you have a total of 24 thirty-second notes, the equivalent of three quarter notes.

beat 1 = dotted eighth plus the first two thirty-second notes = 8 thirty-second notes
beat 2 = two thirty-second notes plus three sixteenth-notes = 8 thirty-second notes
beat 3 = two eighth rests = 8 thirty-second notes




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#2306049 - 07/23/14 04:29 PM Re: 4/4 measure in 3/4 time? [Re: caters]  
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but it has an eighth rest followed by 3 sixteenths followed by another eight rest in the RH.

This is equivalent to these beats

Beat 1: dotted eighth followed by 2 32nds

Beat 2: 2 32nds followed by 3 sixteenths

Beat 3: eight rest followed by 2 sixteenths

almost a 4th beat: 1 sixteenth followed by an eighth rest

#2306057 - 07/23/14 04:36 PM Re: 4/4 measure in 3/4 time? [Re: caters]  
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and by 3 sixteenths and an eighth rest twice I don't mean the eighth rest alone twice. I mean that whole group of 3 sixteenths and an eighth rest is there twice.


So that measure is practically a 4/4 measure in both but is really a polymeter of 15/16 in the right hand and 4/4 in the left hand.

Last edited by caters; 07/23/14 04:50 PM.
#2306086 - 07/23/14 05:41 PM Re: 4/4 measure in 3/4 time? [Re: caters]  
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ha


Regards,

Polyphonist
#2306101 - 07/23/14 06:28 PM Re: 4/4 measure in 3/4 time? [Re: caters]  
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Originally Posted by caters
but it has an eighth rest followed by 3 sixteenths followed by another eight rest in the RH.

This is equivalent to these beats
Beat 1: dotted eighth followed by 2 32nds
Beat 2: 2 32nds followed by 3 sixteenths
Beat 3: eight rest followed by 2 sixteenths
almost a 4th beat: 1 sixteenth followed by an eighth rest


Well, that's not what you wrote before. If you can't post an image of the measures in question, I hardly think it's worth anyone's time to try figure out what you yourself don't seem to be observing from one post to the next.

In your first post you wrote that (some of?) the sixteenths were sextuplets; that would mean that six sixteenth-notes as sextuplets would be the equivalent of two eighth-notes. Later, you said nothing about the sixteenth-notes being sextuplets, so how are we supposed to figure this out?

Moreover, I hardly think that Wagner did not know how to count.

What I wrote in my last post was consistent with what you had written, and was equal to 3/4 time, and as nosy ape observed before me.


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#2306644 - 07/24/14 06:11 PM Re: 4/4 measure in 3/4 time? [Re: caters]  
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that is what I was meaning before when I said "3 sixteenths and an eight rest twice" was that whole group twice.

All sixteenths in the LH until the last 2 measures are sextuplets and then the second to last measure has them in the RH.

while the LH plays sextuplets the RH plays a lot of eighth note triplets which sixteenth note sextuplets are the same length as.

#2306658 - 07/24/14 06:47 PM Re: 4/4 measure in 3/4 time? [Re: caters]  
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#2306675 - 07/24/14 07:24 PM Re: 4/4 measure in 3/4 time? [Re: caters]  
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Originally Posted by caters
that is what I was meaning before when I said "3 sixteenths and an eight rest twice" was that whole group twice.

All sixteenths in the LH until the last 2 measures are sextuplets and then the second to last measure has them in the RH.

while the LH plays sextuplets the RH plays a lot of eighth note triplets which sixteenth note sextuplets are the same length as.

You need to multiply the sextuplets by the RH's nonuplets and the LH's septuplets to give you two duodeviginduplets plus a couple of quattuordecuplets, from which one might deduce that the septetdecuplet divided by an undevigintuplet to the power of a novendecuplet added to sedecuplet will give you the answer.


"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
#2306680 - 07/24/14 07:32 PM Re: 4/4 measure in 3/4 time? [Re: bennevis]  
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Originally Posted by bennevis
You need to multiply the sextuplets by the RH's nonuplets and the LH's septuplets to give you two duodeviginduplets plus a couple of quattuordecuplets, from which one might deduce that the septetdecuplet divided by an undevigintuplet to the power of a novendecuplet added to sedecuplet will give you the answer.
I'm almost turned on by this! grin

I mean this is all slang for S&N stuff, right? :P

#2306687 - 07/24/14 07:49 PM Re: 4/4 measure in 3/4 time? [Re: Nikolas]  
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Originally Posted by Nikolas
Originally Posted by bennevis
You need to multiply the sextuplets by the RH's nonuplets and the LH's septuplets to give you two duodeviginduplets plus a couple of quattuordecuplets, from which one might deduce that the septetdecuplet divided by an undevigintuplet to the power of a novendecuplet added to sedecuplet will give you the answer.
I'm almost turned on by this! grin

I mean this is all slang for S&N stuff, right? :P

My good mathematician friend, who supplied me with all the afore-mentioned figures, assures me that indeed, S∞N thumb.


"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
#2306691 - 07/24/14 08:04 PM Re: 4/4 measure in 3/4 time? [Re: bennevis]  
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Originally Posted by bennevis
You need to multiply the sextuplets by the RH's nonuplets and the LH's septuplets to give you two duodeviginduplets plus a couple of quattuordecuplets, from which one might deduce that the septetdecuplet divided by an undevigintuplet to the power of a novendecuplet added to sedecuplet will give you the answer.

Isn't it nontuplet? Wouldn't a nonuplet be not a tuplet at all, but a regular subdivision?


Michael

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#2306698 - 07/24/14 08:19 PM Re: 4/4 measure in 3/4 time? [Re: Parks]  
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Originally Posted by Parks
Originally Posted by bennevis
You need to multiply the sextuplets by the RH's nonuplets and the LH's septuplets to give you two duodeviginduplets plus a couple of quattuordecuplets, from which one might deduce that the septetdecuplet divided by an undevigintuplet to the power of a novendecuplet added to sedecuplet will give you the answer.

Isn't it nontuplet? Wouldn't a nonuplet be not a tuplet at all, but a regular subdivision?

You're right, it should be nontuplet. For some reason, the spell-checker on my laptop (which I still haven't worked out how to turn off) removed the 't' when my back was tturned.......


"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
#2306724 - 07/24/14 09:48 PM Re: 4/4 measure in 3/4 time? [Re: bennevis]  
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Originally Posted by bennevis
Originally Posted by Parks
Originally Posted by bennevis
You need to multiply the sextuplets by the RH's nonuplets and the LH's septuplets to give you two duodeviginduplets plus a couple of quattuordecuplets, from which one might deduce that the septetdecuplet divided by an undevigintuplet to the power of a novendecuplet added to sedecuplet will give you the answer.

Isn't it nontuplet? Wouldn't a nonuplet be not a tuplet at all, but a regular subdivision?

You're right, it should be nontuplet. For some reason, the spell-checker on my laptop (which I still haven't worked out how to turn off) removed the 't' when my back was turned.......

Don't you mean, when your backed was urned?

Last edited by Parks; 07/24/14 10:44 PM.

Michael

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