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One way that I've found to be better is to do overlapping chunks 1-8, then 5-14 then 11-19, etc..


That sounds like something I should definitely try. It's true that parsing together the chunks after learning them can be much harder than doing some overlapped learning.

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I only work on memorizing chunks after I have worked through the whole piece. I don't seem to be able to memorize anything before I have an idea of the finished product in my mind. This also helps in preventing learning the chuncks in a way that will not fit well technically with what comes next. Also it's easier to keep it musical and rhytmically correct in those small sections.

I think this is partly because I am not what is called a "sequental learner". For some people it is much easier to work gradually from the beginning to the end. I tried that too but it never seemed to produce any results. I learn best by getting an overview first and then start filling the details and refining.

It's good to try several methods and then see what works for you.

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Back in 2009, when I joined PW, I realized that memorization wasn't a "natural process" for everybody. I saw several threads and discussions about it and this seemed a bit strange to me.

In fact, I don't need any special effort to memorize a piece. I can play the firsts completed pieces I learned in 2009 and, 5 years latter, I can play +20 pieces by memory. I would say: once played, once memorized.

I can't help in this matter, sorry. I don't know how it happens. smile


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Genetics? Luck? some combination thereof? smile Consider yourself quite fortunate. I find that if I play a piece enough from reading, often I'll memorize it without even really trying (especially if it's not too complicated). But I have to play through a piece quite a few times before I get there, and do so over some days or weeks. If I specifically want to memorize a piece, I can get there a lot faster by approaching it systematically and working in chunks.

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Originally Posted by JohnSprung

The process of converting from knowing what it's supposed to sound like to physically touching the keys to achieve that result -- without any chart or other input -- is what I'd call "playing by ear".



This is how I see it too.

It feels different to me to have something carefully memorized (and maybe have brain cramp in the middle of playing it) versus knowing something well and playing it by ear, with maybe a glitch or two when the fingers don't land right, but little chance of a meltdown. These seem like different mental processes.

Clearly there is memory involved in both. I can't play anything by ear unless I know it very very well, and that's memory. But it's memory that doesn't include the muscle movements - they are produced on the fly, almost like sight reading.


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Originally Posted by Saranoya
When you're playing with your eyes on the score, actually having to "translate" the lines and dots into audible music beat by beat (otherwise known as sight-reading), there is zero memory involvement.


I'm going to disagree with you slightly on this. What you describe is what I call prima facie sight reading, and there is a component of that happening. But the good sightreaders do as little of that as possible. Most of what they play is by retrieving thoroughly learned (and memorized) patterns.

I'm trying to think of a very simple example. If I'm playing a simple hymn in D major, I know there will always be a pattern in the left hand with a D and A together followed by octave As followed by G over A resolving to D/F#/A. The very first time I see that, it's pure sightreading with no memory. After a hundred times (with an experienced church musician surely it is more than 100,000 times) there is no sightreading and all memory - recognize the pattern and the fingers will retrieve it.


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Originally Posted by TimR
It feels different to me to have something carefully memorized (and maybe have brain cramp in the middle of playing it) versus knowing something well and playing it by ear, with maybe a glitch or two when the fingers don't land right, but little chance of a meltdown. These seem like different mental processes.


Interesting distinction. I think that by your and JohnSprung's definition, then, I am probably *always* playing mostly by ear, and never (or at least never purely) from memory. Playing from memory, seen in this light, would be what Gary D. calls "go magic fingers". That, in my experience, doesn't work. Muscle memory can be one part of having a piece memorised, and it helps, but on its own it's not enough.

To OP: I think what I'm trying to say here is that memorising in a way that's resistant to time and stress and playing in unfamiliar circumstances, etc. always requires "transfer" of the piece from the score or a recording into your own mind. For me, that representation will be an "internal recording": it is primarily auditory. For you, it might be primarily visual, or primarily kinaesthetic, or primarily logical (musical structure, chord progressions, etc.), with some elements of all the others thrown in to make it stronger in the long run. I think it's a question of figuring out whether you are generally inclined towards a visual, auditory or some other learning style, and then deliberately using your strengths to help you memorise music in the way that's easiest for you.

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Originally Posted by TimR
I'm going to disagree with you slightly on this. What you describe is what I call prima facie sight reading, and there is a component of that happening. But the good sightreaders do as little of that as possible. Most of what they play is by retrieving thoroughly learned (and memorized) patterns.


I see what you mean. It's like playing the easier Clementi sonatinas, which consist mostly of scale- and arpeggio-like patterns. I suppose that is part of why most serious musicians spend lots of time practicing those things.

There's a parallel here, too, with the way young children learn to read the written word: they go from decoding words letter by letter, to recognising familiar patterns, to anticipating those patterns (the ltater elpxians why msot popele suohld hvae no prolebm raednig tihs).

I would say that recognising patterns in this way is somewhere on the continuum between "no memory involvement at all" (prima vista sight-reading by someone with little or no experience playing the piano) and "playing from memory" (no score to refer to).

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Originally Posted by Saranoya
For me, that representation will be an "internal recording": it is primarily auditory. For you, it might be primarily visual, or primarily kinaesthetic, or primarily logical (musical structure, chord progressions, etc.), with some elements of all the others thrown in to make it stronger in the long run.


I agree with that. I also think the more elements are included the more stable, and that muscle memory/kinaesthetic elements are the least reliable under pressure and most likely to fade more quickly.

In fact they quite often fade between the last practice and the lesson, resulting in the common "but I played it fine at home!" phenomenon.

Last edited by TimR; 07/24/14 02:34 PM.

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Originally Posted by Saranoya
Originally Posted by TimR
Why do you call this memory, rather than playing by ear?

(yes, it's a trick question)


Interesting trick question. And although it was not addressed to me, I feel compelled to take a stab at answering it.

I would say that "playing by ear" in the strictest sense involves immediate imitation: you listen to someone else play (live or recorded), and then you immediately attempt to copy. When there is a delay between the model and the copy, then "playing by ear" becomes "playing from memory".

I'd say this applies also to music learned from a score. The greater the distance between "model" (score) and "copy" (your playing of what's in the score), the better you're remembering.

When you're playing with your eyes on the score, actually having to "translate" the lines and dots into audible music beat by beat (otherwise known as sight-reading), there is zero memory involvement. Going from that to playing entirely from memory requires a representation of those dots and lines in your own mind. It might be an audible representation, in which case playing from memory essentially becomes a variation on playing by ear, in that you're copying the music in your head. But there are other possibilities: your representation might be visual (you're "reading the score" without actually having it in front of you), physical (you can play without a score because you know what your fingers, hands and arms are supposed to do to make the music come out), or some combination of all of the above. I think that for obvious reasons, the latter is most resistant to memory lapses.


I'd argue that all those methods require different versions of memorization. Sightreading DOES require you to work on a skill where you read something, digest it memorize it momentarily and then play it while basically "queueing" these actions over and over. You are constantly memorizing the previous measure because you ideally should have read it, digested it and be playing it WHILE you are doing the same to the next measure and being one step ahead. You can't read one step ahead without some deal of memorization, regardless of how small it may be. Same to be said with hearing something and then playing it back. You are listening to it to store it in your short term memory then using that to recite what you just heard. While it may not be tapping into your long term memory like playing a song you heard earlier that day, its the same basic principle IMO.


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Originally Posted by Sweet06
I'd argue that all those methods require different versions of memorization. Sightreading DOES require you to work on a skill where you read something, digest it memorize it momentarily and then play it while basically "queueing" these actions over and over. You are constantly memorizing the previous measure because you ideally should have read it, digested it and be playing it WHILE you are doing the same to the next measure and being one step ahead.

First, we should differentiate between prima vista reading, called "sight reading", which is an advanced and specialized skill needed, for example, by an accompanist who has to play a score in real time - and reading. Most of us need the skill of reading music. That can be done slowly, and carefully.

Reading does NOT necessarily entail memorizing and queuing. What you are describing is one way that people go about it. When I read music from the page, I am not doing what you describe.

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Originally Posted by keystring
Originally Posted by Sweet06
I'd argue that all those methods require different versions of memorization. Sightreading DOES require you to work on a skill where you read something, digest it memorize it momentarily and then play it while basically "queueing" these actions over and over. You are constantly memorizing the previous measure because you ideally should have read it, digested it and be playing it WHILE you are doing the same to the next measure and being one step ahead.

First, we should differentiate between prima vista reading, called "sight reading", which is an advanced and specialized skill needed, for example, by an accompanist who has to play a score in real time - and reading. Most of us need the skill of reading music. That can be done slowly, and carefully.


Reading does NOT necessarily entail memorizing and queuing. What you are describing is one way that people go about it. When I read music from the page, I am not doing what you describe.


What do you do when you read? Because I'm inclined to say memorization happens in ANY type of reading. Humans are a lot like computers. If its on the computer, its stored on the computer SOMEWHERE. Same thing with humans, if you are thinking about it, doing it in any fashion its stored in your brain SOMEWHERE.


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Originally Posted by 8 Octaves
Yes, after learning measures 1-8, you really need to learn measures 6-14, not 9-16.


I'd recommend smaller chunks than 8 bars, and dividing by phrases rather than strictly on bar lines. Chunks of a phrase or two plus the first note or chord of the next phrase are what I try for. All your starting points are natural to the music, so you can use them to jump back in. The end points are just enough to overlap and hook you up with what you need to play next. They don't need to sound like a good place to stop.



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Originally Posted by Sweet06

What do you do when you read? Because I'm inclined to say memorization happens in ANY type of reading.

One aspect of reading music is an eye-hand real-time thing. When you drive a car and the light turns red, you put your foot on the brakes and envision yourself slowing to a stop. You don't think these things - it just happens. The red light is like a note on the page.

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Originally Posted by Sweet06

What do you do when you read? Because I'm inclined to say memorization happens in ANY type of reading.


Perhaps, but that's not what I'm talking about

Think about what happens when you learn a lesson piece well

Did you play it better than you sight read it? I would hope so. You memorized something, I'm not sure what, but learning was involved.

Now skilled sightreaders have already learned patterns as well as you learned that lesson piece, and that is what they are doing when they sight read. Their mental processing is different from ours.


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