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#2305674 - 07/22/14 11:15 PM Join the false-beat revolution: get your wires straight!!!  
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This is my recommendation for bending the piano's plain wire in an effort to 1) minimise falseness/false-beats, 2) reduce the amount of string levelling necessary for high-level voicing and damper work, and 3) prevent an earlier onset of the dreaded "capo-buzz!!!"
[Linked Image][Linked Image]
This procedure involves three bends--in specific directions--that control the direction/path of the wire's natural curvature.

NOTE: there are no false-beat causing twists/turns in the entire length of the wire (i.e., the coil is purposefully wound on the side of the natural curvature of the wire--not with/under the natural curvature; this is more common/easier, but then introduces a twist when later installed onto the tuning pin).

Because the piano wires travel straighter, there is less need to level strings. This is a great benefit: bending/whacking anywhere in the speaking length of a string--especially at/around the termination points--will create falseness in tone. So, if you don't have to do it, don't! Manhandling piano wire may be a viable persuasion in the real world, but there is no place for that kind of brutality in high-end musical instruments indented for concerts.smokin


Masters degree in piano technology, +factory(s) training, etc., blah, blah, yada, yada, yada...[uncensored break-out in song]..."it don't mean a thing, if you aint got that swing."
--Klavierbaukuenstler des Erwachens--
Email: klavierbaukuenstler@gmail.com
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#2305681 - 07/22/14 11:35 PM Re: Join the false-beat revolution: get your wires straight!!! [Re: A454.7]  
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Ed McMorrow, RPT Offline
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So you advocate placing the coil 90 degrees from the natural curve. Have I git that correct.

If you shape the capo bar to a definite V with a 0.5mm string contact point-no capo buzzes ever.


In a seemingly infinite universe-infinite human creativity is-seemingly possible.
According to NASA, 93% of the earth like planets possible in the known universe have yet to be formed.
Contact: Ed@LightHammerpiano.com
#2305692 - 07/23/14 12:41 AM Re: Join the false-beat revolution: get your wires straight!!! [Re: A454.7]  
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Bend #1: in the middle, around at the side (90 degrees) to the natural curvature of the wire.
[Linked Image]

NOT like this: the natural curvature of the wire! This is a much more common approach.
[Linked Image]
A bend with the natural direction of the wire would result in no twists on the right string, but string that wonders more in a R/L plane around the termination points; the 1/2 twist necessary to install the left wire onto the tuning pin would result in a slightly up/down and different R/L points of wondering at/around where the hammers/dampers contact the strings. This one, seemingly insignificant, bend of the wire introduces a tremendous amount of unnecessary and unwanted chaos into a systems with a direct affect on the ability to do high-level voicing (i.e., hammer-to-string fitting) and damper work.

Bends #2&3: the becket bends, around at the side (90 degrees) to the natural curvature of the wire. The end result should resemble a UU/CC, with both ends pointing straight up/down.
[Linked Image]
Now, that, is a happy piano wire, indeed! grin


Masters degree in piano technology, +factory(s) training, etc., blah, blah, yada, yada, yada...[uncensored break-out in song]..."it don't mean a thing, if you aint got that swing."
--Klavierbaukuenstler des Erwachens--
Email: klavierbaukuenstler@gmail.com
#2305698 - 07/23/14 12:58 AM Re: Join the false-beat revolution: get your wires straight!!! [Re: Ed McMorrow, RPT]  
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Originally Posted by Ed McMorrow, RPT
So you advocate placing the coil 90 degrees from the natural curve.
Yep.

Originally Posted by Ed McMorrow, RPT
If you shape the capo bar to a definite V with a 0.5mm string contact point-no capo buzzes ever.
I haven't experienced enough of the 'ever' part for myself yet, but I do assume your statement to be true (i.e., based on my limited experiences with shaping polishing so far).

I don't know how much longer this approach might hold off a potential buzz, but it could/should help, at least a little--it will depend on the angles involved, the weight of the hammers, how much the piano is played, and how much string levelling occurs (i.e., pulling up to level strings, on a piano with a thick capo contact point, will make the problem worse; so, creating naturally more level/consistent strings in the (re)string process--by reducing the need to aggressively level the strings--should prolong the onset of an early capo buzz).

Of course, the real problem should be addressed at the capo at the next restringing.


Masters degree in piano technology, +factory(s) training, etc., blah, blah, yada, yada, yada...[uncensored break-out in song]..."it don't mean a thing, if you aint got that swing."
--Klavierbaukuenstler des Erwachens--
Email: klavierbaukuenstler@gmail.com
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#2305740 - 07/23/14 02:49 AM Re: Join the false-beat revolution: get your wires straight!!! [Re: A454.7]  
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Thanks for the pics. The descriptions are clear.
Is not it reducing the amount of possible massaging up later?

Do you still massage with heat your strings ? (I find it again yesterday to thicken and clear the tone on some replaced strings on an old Boesenderfer.)
A hammer shank suffice.

I will test your process soon.
So bend with pliers for the one around pin?



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#2305781 - 07/23/14 07:38 AM Re: Join the false-beat revolution: get your wires straight!!! [Re: A454.7]  
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Hmmmmm. I use the "traditional" method and my wire seems to be very happy with no weeping or wailing that I can hear. There's a slight chance that I'm a bit insensitive. In the future I'll have to take a little more time to try to ascertain the happiness of my wire installations. If false beats are any indication, the stuff is pretty happy.


David L. Jenson
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Jenson's Piano Service
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#2305782 - 07/23/14 07:40 AM Re: Join the false-beat revolution: get your wires straight!!! [Re: A454.7]  
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Thanks A443, I'm learning a lot!


HW


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-Lao Tzu
#2305785 - 07/23/14 07:48 AM Re: Join the false-beat revolution: get your wires straight!!! [Re: A454.7]  
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I must be missing something... I don't see how either method is different when it comes to adding any twist to the string, as long as you control the plane of the coil created during winding. I do see the wandering left/right issue, so will give this a try!

Thanks

Ron Koval

#2305805 - 07/23/14 08:52 AM Re: Join the false-beat revolution: get your wires straight!!! [Re: A454.7]  
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Is your statement in the "fascinating video" thread, that "unfortunataly, no string leveling" an exaggeration to make a point or a literal statement?

With bends that agree, do you do any massaging, gentle shaping of the catenary bend, minor leveling.

I must say, regarding leveling, that I have always taken the "Leveling" that high level techs claim as a requirement to be something whose attainment exceeds the physical limitations of steel wire. As in, aggressive corrective leveling probably lasts about as long as it takes for the check to clear. In addition to this, in my own rebuilding work, when string level needs serious correction, that correction without pushing the wire past its elastic limit, is often unattainable. I no longer beat up on out-of-level strings.

I also think that the requirements of leveling become more critical when hard heavy hammers are used on boards which are not very responsive, new or old. With my boards, which are quite responsive, have reasonable to low tension scales, cold pressed light hammers, minor leveling inconsistencies just are not the problem they are in systems that are pushed to the high performance limit. As in anything that is referred to high performance, high performance always means on the knife edge of dysfunction, hence the need for super anal, yet far from long term leveling.

Thoughts?

Jim Ialeggio



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978 425-9026
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#2305819 - 07/23/14 09:18 AM Re: Join the false-beat revolution: get your wires straight!!! [Re: A454.7]  
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Something that has some bearing here is that the OP has given no indication of any level of affiliation or level of experience withthepiano service field, or the piano industry in general.


David L. Jenson
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Jenson's Piano Service
-----
#2305841 - 07/23/14 10:03 AM Re: Join the false-beat revolution: get your wires straight!!! [Re: RonTuner]  
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Originally Posted by RonTuner
I must be missing something... I don't see how either method is different when it comes to adding any twist to the string, as long as you control the plane of the coil created during winding.
How are you making your coil?

Many people wind the wire around the tuning pin with their hands/fingers, and then whack that pin into the block, or transfer the coil to a pin already in the block. When using this method, the coil follows the path of least resistance and goes along the natural curvature of the wire. Using the 'traditional' first-bend orientation means the left coil will be on the wrong side and requires a 180 degree inversion.

If you have a jig that helps makes a neat coil, it is possible to use the 'traditional' first bend, as long as you make the coil on the left string going in the reverse direction (i.e., back against the natural direction of the wire). However, you'd still have the problems of wires taking different paths as they transverse different contact points.


Masters degree in piano technology, +factory(s) training, etc., blah, blah, yada, yada, yada...[uncensored break-out in song]..."it don't mean a thing, if you aint got that swing."
--Klavierbaukuenstler des Erwachens--
Email: klavierbaukuenstler@gmail.com
#2305857 - 07/23/14 10:24 AM Re: Join the false-beat revolution: get your wires straight!!! [Re: A454.7]  
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Ed McMorrow, RPT Offline
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I certainly hope this thread does not devolve into a comparison of professional "genitalia". I really do not give a dam about a long winded polemic regarding respective Curriculum Vitae.

Back to topic,
I do find that string leveling by working slight vertical bends in the wire is very stable over time once the string creep has settled down. As you get into the note 60's range and above-most of the phase fitting of unisons must be done at the strike surface of the hammer.


In a seemingly infinite universe-infinite human creativity is-seemingly possible.
According to NASA, 93% of the earth like planets possible in the known universe have yet to be formed.
Contact: Ed@LightHammerpiano.com
#2305866 - 07/23/14 10:44 AM Re: Join the false-beat revolution: get your wires straight!!! [Re: David Jenson]  
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Originally Posted by David Jenson
Hmmmmm. I use the "traditional" method and my wire seems to be very happy with no weeping or wailing that I can hear. There's a slight chance that I'm a bit insensitive. In the future I'll have to take a little more time to try to ascertain the happiness of my wire installations. If false beats are any indication, the stuff is pretty happy.
In the past, I have used the term 'false-beat' to describe any unwanted falseness in the tone of the piano wire--whether or not they actually create "beats." Some languages focus on "string falseness"--in contrast to actual false-beats--while others prefer to differentiate between falseness and false-beats in their terminology. The defining line between the two terms, like string falseness, is somewhat blurry.

Falseness includes issues where the pitch (i.e., the multiple frequencies of the different partials) does not remain predictably stable. When partials begin deviating abnormally from their expected behaviour, the level of falseness begins to subjectively increase. A good tone is one that remains stable: a tone that wavers back-and-forth (i.e., speeds up and slows down), or one that falls/raises as its decays is the main issue that I hear in string falseness. It doesn't have to be as bad as a "false-beats" to register aurally as "string falseness."


Masters degree in piano technology, +factory(s) training, etc., blah, blah, yada, yada, yada...[uncensored break-out in song]..."it don't mean a thing, if you aint got that swing."
--Klavierbaukuenstler des Erwachens--
Email: klavierbaukuenstler@gmail.com
#2305961 - 07/23/14 01:21 PM Re: Join the false-beat revolution: get your wires straight!!! [Re: A454.7]  
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I'm sure glad harpsichords don't have this problem since every string is terminated separately. Of course harpsichords break strings if you look at them funny.


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#2306034 - 07/23/14 04:03 PM Re: Join the false-beat revolution: get your wires straight!!! [Re: gynnis]  
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Originally Posted by gynnis
I'm sure glad harpsichords don't have this problem since every string is terminated separately. Of course harpsichords break strings if you look at them funny.


Quite true!!


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#2306036 - 07/23/14 04:07 PM Re: Join the false-beat revolution: get your wires straight!!! [Re: A454.7]  
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Originally Posted by A443
...how much the piano is played, and how much string levelling occurs (i.e., pulling up to level strings, on a piano with a thick capo contact point, will make the problem worse...


Are you saying that you only pull up when doing string leveling?


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#2306042 - 07/23/14 04:19 PM Re: Join the false-beat revolution: get your wires straight!!! [Re: Olek]  
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Originally Posted by Olek
Is not it reducing the amount of possible massaging up later?
I believe this to be the case. When the capo is level, and the wire is installed properly, I find there there is no need for any levelling (i.e., the wires are close enough). If I really want it to be absolutely perfect, I will lightly massage upwards with something wooden...if I absolutely have to.

Originally Posted by Olek
So bend with pliers for the one around pin?
I use two needle nose pliers to make the first bend--this keeps the wire curvatures in alignment. Then I make the becket bends, then insert into a coil maker/winder jig/tool.


Masters degree in piano technology, +factory(s) training, etc., blah, blah, yada, yada, yada...[uncensored break-out in song]..."it don't mean a thing, if you aint got that swing."
--Klavierbaukuenstler des Erwachens--
Email: klavierbaukuenstler@gmail.com
#2306043 - 07/23/14 04:19 PM Re: Join the false-beat revolution: get your wires straight!!! [Re: A454.7]  
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Olek Offline
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Originally Posted by A443
Originally Posted by David Jenson
Hmmmmm. I use the "traditional" method and my wire seems to be very happy with no weeping or wailing that I can hear. There's a slight chance that I'm a bit insensitive. In the future I'll have to take a little more time to try to ascertain the happiness of my wire installations. If false beats are any indication, the stuff is pretty happy.
In the past, I have used the term 'false-beat' to describe any unwanted falseness in the tone of the piano wire--whether or not they actually create "beats." Some languages focus on "string falseness"--in contrast to actual false-beats--while others prefer to differentiate between falseness and false-beats in their terminology. The defining line between the two terms, like string falseness, is somewhat blurry.

Falseness includes issues where the pitch (i.e., the multiple frequencies of the different partials) does not remain predictably stable. When partials begin deviating abnormally from their expected behaviour, the level of falseness begins to subjectively increase. A good tone is one that remains stable: a tone that wavers back-and-forth (i.e., speeds up and slows down), or one that falls/raises as its decays is the main issue that I hear in string falseness. It doesn't have to be as bad as a "false-beats" to register aurally as "string falseness."


the tone "purity" is something noticeable, that can be recorded and also graphed. So probably you will have more data to support your claim.

out of curiosity, is it something you noticed in a factory ?


Professional of the profession.
Foo Foo specialist
I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
#2306046 - 07/23/14 04:22 PM Re: Join the false-beat revolution: get your wires straight!!! [Re: A454.7]  
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Originally Posted by A443
Originally Posted by Olek
Is not it reducing the amount of possible massaging up later?
I believe this to be the case. When the capo is level, and the wire is installed properly, I find there there is no need for any levelling (i.e., the wires are close enough). If I really want it to be absolutely perfect, I will lightly massage upwards with something wooden...if I absolutely have to.

Originally Posted by Olek
So bend with pliers for the one around pin?
I use two needle nose pliers to make the first bend--this keeps the wire curvatures in alignment. Then I make the becket bends, then insert into a coil maker/winder jig/tool.


Thanks, the missing part is that wire need to be massaged and heated, visibly. this is not only to stabilize by stretching, the tone color change for a hotter, more silky one.


Last edited by Olek; 07/23/14 04:23 PM.

Professional of the profession.
Foo Foo specialist
I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
#2306064 - 07/23/14 04:50 PM Re: Join the false-beat revolution: get your wires straight!!! [Re: SMHaley]  
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Originally Posted by SMHaley
Originally Posted by A443
...how much the piano is played, and how much string levelling occurs (i.e., pulling up to level strings, on a piano with a thick capo contact point, will make the problem worse...
Are you saying that you only pull up when doing string leveling?
No, that statement was referring to what increases the problem of capo buzzing/noise. Aggressively pulling up on the wire, because of the resultant decreased space between the string and the capo, worsens that problem.

I'm saying any deformation in the speaking length is not a good idea: it causes falseness in the string's tone.

If it is a new wire, installed in the way I outlined, pushing down doesn't do anything. If I am working with someone else's work, however, my procedure it to push down first (i.e., since it is common for technicians to yank upwards when levelling)--if pushing back down is not enough--only then do I pull up. But, again, any of these procedures is likely to cause a deterioration in the tone.

I don't have enough experience/data to say whether or not massaging the string with friction has a +/- effect on string falseness. However, if I had to, I rather do this than aggressive bends/impacts. But, I still maintain that it is best to leave the strings alone, and make small changes at the hammer/damper.


Masters degree in piano technology, +factory(s) training, etc., blah, blah, yada, yada, yada...[uncensored break-out in song]..."it don't mean a thing, if you aint got that swing."
--Klavierbaukuenstler des Erwachens--
Email: klavierbaukuenstler@gmail.com
#2306073 - 07/23/14 05:09 PM Re: Join the false-beat revolution: get your wires straight!!! [Re: A454.7]  
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Originally Posted by A443


I'm saying any deformation in the speaking length is not a good idea: it causes falseness in the string's tone.

Yes certainly , and for massaging the wire must be tense and at pitch.

Honestly I was doing when mounting new strings but without making a relation with tone quality, less false beats, etc.

Just confirmed that lately on individual strings.

It is easy to test by yourself.

The tone do not loose partials as when tapping on bridges for instance.

The same with the pin's tapping, I like it. and it make tapping in front or on the bridge not very efficient in the long run.





Professional of the profession.
Foo Foo specialist
I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
#2306098 - 07/23/14 06:20 PM Re: Join the false-beat revolution: get your wires straight!!! [Re: Ed McMorrow, RPT]  
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Originally Posted by Ed McMorrow, RPT
I certainly hope this thread does not devolve into a comparison of professional "genitalia". I really do not give a dam about a long winded polemic regarding respective Curriculum Vitae.

'Too late. I fear two participants are off dancing in the either of diminishing returns and ethereal minutiae.


David L. Jenson
Tuning - Repairs - Refurbishing
Jenson's Piano Service
-----
#2306100 - 07/23/14 06:25 PM Re: Join the false-beat revolution: get your wires straight!!! [Re: A454.7]  
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Thanks A443. I always wondered whether the orientation of the bend matters. I still do, but I least I know that others think about it.


Chris Leslie ARPT
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#2306191 - 07/23/14 09:38 PM Re: Join the false-beat revolution: get your wires straight!!! [Re: A454.7]  
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I played around with this some today...it makes a lot sense, in terms of a way to get the string level agreeing right off the mark, and the elimination of twist.

So I made a couple of trial coils and hitch bends. I have attempted for some time to get the natural position of the coil on the pin to to drop in without twist, but I must say, that its often hard to read just where the wire thinks its natural curve wants to be. Like today, of the 2 coils per wire, bent at the hitch as you show 443, I still often get one coil sitting just right, and the other canted maybe 15-20 deg. It seems like it has some way to go before it hits Arledge's 45deg false beat generation, but it will take some attention and messing about to be really consistent on the coil angle.

Its a good idea, I think, and will definitely string this way on a belly coming up for stringing in August.

Jim Ialeggio


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www.grandpianosolutions.com
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978 425-9026
Shirley Center, MA
#2306208 - 07/23/14 10:48 PM Re: Join the false-beat revolution: get your wires straight!!! [Re: A454.7]  
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Originally Posted by A443


I'm saying any deformation in the speaking length is not a good idea: it causes falseness in the string's tone...
....my procedure it to push down first (i.e., since it is common for technicians to yank upwards when levelling)--if pushing back down is not enough--only then do I pull up.


Interesting... I do similarly, lowering before pushing or pulling upward.


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#2306301 - 07/24/14 05:27 AM Re: Join the false-beat revolution: get your wires straight!!! [Re: gynnis]  
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Olek Offline
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Olek  Offline
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France
Originally Posted by gynnis
I'm sure glad harpsichords don't have this problem since every string is terminated separately. Of course harpsichords break strings if you look at them funny.


Is not it mostly if you lower their tension? (plus age, indeed).
Any idea on the stress on bronze and steel wire here?


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#2306338 - 07/24/14 08:28 AM Re: Join the false-beat revolution: get your wires straight!!! [Re: A454.7]  
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Ed Foote Offline
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Ed Foote  Offline
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Tennessee
Greetings,
I think you are going to a lot of trouble for nothing, It is a simple matter to wind the first coil in the direction of the curvature, and then, after placing the wire in the bridge pins, go around the hitch pin while reversing the curvature. It is a simple technique that shouldn't take more than two or three attempts to master. You have to change the curvature as you bend the wire around the pin. This makes the returning string lie in the same orientation as the first, and all of the twist in the wire takes place behind the bridge at the hitch pin.
I have intentionally installed wire with 180 and 360 degree twists in them and found no false beats, so I don't think a twist is any sure recipe for a false beat. Far more often, it is the loose bridge pin, or the overstretched wire commonly found in new high-end American pianos.
regards,

#2306371 - 07/24/14 09:11 AM Re: Join the false-beat revolution: get your wires straight!!! [Re: A454.7]  
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jim ialeggio Offline
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jim ialeggio  Offline
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shirley, MA
Ed Foote,

Have you installed wire twisted at Arledge's 45deg, which is what I see as the issue to be avoided? This is the twist that I find most likely to happen if a clear protocol is not established to avoid it.

Jim Ialeggio


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#2306374 - 07/24/14 09:17 AM Re: Join the false-beat revolution: get your wires straight!!! [Re: Ed Foote]  
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bkw58 Offline

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bkw58  Offline

Silver Supporter until December 19, 2014


Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 2,042
Conway, AR USA
Originally Posted by Ed Foote
Greetings,
... It is a simple matter to wind the first coil in the direction of the curvature, and then, after placing the wire in the bridge pins, go around the hitch pin while reversing the curvature. It is a simple technique that shouldn't take more than two or three attempts to master. You have to change the curvature as you bend the wire around the pin. This makes the returning string lie in the same orientation as the first, and all of the twist in the wire takes place behind the bridge at the hitch pin...


+1


Bob W.
Retired piano technician
Conway, Arkansas
www.pianotechno.blogspot.com
#2306397 - 07/24/14 10:08 AM Re: Join the false-beat revolution: get your wires straight!!! [Re: A454.7]  
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Olek Offline
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Olek  Offline
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France
When I think of "smiling unsion" I wonder iof it could not be advantageous to be attentive of the curvature by making the 2 outer strings going the same direction, and the center one the opposite.

After leveling , massaging etc, this will not be as marked, but I think the wire may keep the tendency to stabilize in that phasing shape (center string waving opposed of the 2 external ones)

Makes me think that if any perceptible effect it must be more due to the 3 strings than to one only (unless you mute the other, when you pluck one string the tone depends also of the 2 other)

45 is where the wire have the less clean clamping on the bridge, "rubbing" on the wood and the pin in opposed directions , so I understand this can be detrimental. it may "twist" the wave orientation sooner than when vertical or horizontal, with a similar effect as an insecure bridge pin (?)

A light hop at the base of the pin is enough to create a false beat, wood contact must be limited to the max I suppose.

High motion camera, very necessary here, to see if the wire is allowed to move behind the bend in some cases.






Last edited by Olek; 07/24/14 10:12 AM.

Professional of the profession.
Foo Foo specialist
I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
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