Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Forum Schimmel Kozert 187 Grand Piano any good for the money?

Sam4,

Are you sure you want to burden yourself with a huge debt now for something that is not related at all to your studies? There is no reason to rush into buying any of these pianos.

Well I enjoy playing the piano, and I want to rplace my Paul Newman, it isn't related to my studies, but these are payed for in Scotland, I'll be payin them back for the next 20-30 years anyway, and the piano gives me some relxation from doing my computing work, so yes, it is worth the expense, and really it's not that much of an expense, it is more than do-able I have a proper job to that earns an OK wage, and as I'm paying it up, is that really a debt if you set aside the monthly payments? As long as you can still live and enjoy yourself with what else you have left over I reckon it's well worth the money, I get a lot of pleasure out of it, it's one of my main hobbies, it keeps me happy, I've don it since I was a kid my uncle got my into music, and I play for my own enjoyment not professionally, have a look at my youtube channel you'll see some of the stuff I play to give ye an idea of what I like doin.

https://www.youtube.com/user/Samthebam4044

I agree with you I might be rushing into this too quickly I need more trips down to the shop to looks and sit down with more pianos to really get a feel for what one I'm gonna be happiest with, had so many over the years as gifts from people it's hard to tell what you want out of a piano but as others have said something will get you when you play the right one for you.

I do appreciate your concern though, I see where your coming from, and no I isn't the best idea to start spending this sorta money, but consider this.

I'm partially-sighted, I'll probably not be able to own a car soon because I can't see properly. Now if nealy all of my work mates can afford to pay insurance, road tax, petrol etc on their own cars, and they all earn roughly the same as me, I got a disabled bus pass to help with travel.

Thus, I've budgeted this out, and it's very achievable given that I'm careful with where my dosh is going, cutting back on too many coffee's Lol stuff like that. I work same as everyone else, and by my reckoning adding up the cost of owning a car, which most of my mates use for socialising btw, I'm not spending anymore than your average young person does on a yearly basis, I don't go out at the weekends drinking or clubbing, so the piano is my way of entertaining myself.

Granted I'm making a general sweep of young folk, which isn't to say all young people go out drinking or have a car, there are plenty of poorer people than ourselves out there who can't afford to feed or clothe themselves let alone buy a piano.

Ok that was abit of an extravagant rant but y'see my argument, I've added up how much it'll cost me and worked out I've got more than enough left to live on and enjoy myself at the same time, so I don't think this is a stupid idea, but I can defo see why you'd say that given my studies just now, but I can afford this if I plan correctly.

All said the answer kind of remains, buy what you like. BTW. 18000 GBP for this instrument seems like a very good price. Still, you have to like it enough

I'd expect to find a good selection of pianos for £18,000 or less in the United Kingdom. Here's one and a few more from the first reputable sources that came to mind.

The last one on your first link looks very interesting. Never heard of tropicalized piano's but it sure looks nice.

Just to add a funny aside here, if I buy the Schimmel I'm hardly ever gonna be able to say it without laughing. Y'se here in Scotland, well in Glasgow anyway, some people talk with a slur to their words.

Something just caught my attention that made me almost wet myself, if anyone's ever seen the Scottish comedy "Still Game" ,the 2 main characters Jack and Victor go into the loony bin during on episode and an old deluded guy jumps at them holding his hand out and shouting "Smelll ma Fingers, get them smelt it's the good stuff".

See, every time I say Schimmel to somebody, if you say it a certain way inscots dialect it sounds like smell so it's gonna bring up that quote every time, just thought it was kinda hilarious if you kinda see the relationship.

I'm getting off-track but here's the clip if you wanna se it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T18FADQgbbs

My mum has pretty much decided on the Schimmel, but I need to see if Jamie can give me a good deal on it.

A nice piano is definitely an enjoyment. I listened to these clips of Schimmel 189s for sale in the US and can see why you are attracted to it. Even on You Tube they sound great.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8jZECzjCQJ0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Kqea1NZJ5M

Work on that good deal.

Best wishes whichever you choose.

Schimmel K series are nice pianos. I haven't come across a bad one.

Enjoy

Schimmel has a very good reputation. As for Weinbach, consider this quote from the current issue of Piano Buyer:

"Note: For years, Weinbach pianos were made by the Petrof company and were virtually identical to Petrof brand pianos. The Weinbach name is no longer being used in North America."

If Weinbachs were virtually identical to Petrofs, that would indicate that Weinbach pianos have a good reputation as well.

That said, that tells you nothing about the specific pianos you are considering. In addition, I am of the opinion that you are much too early in the piano-shopping process to begin zeroing in on two pianos. Play a wide variety of instruments before you make a decision, and have a good independent technician examine the last two or three finalists.

If you prefer wooden veneers to ebonized finishes, you can get virtually any piano in a variety of wood finishes, provided you are willing to pay a little higher price.

BTW. forgot to mention. But did you try the search function on the Schimmel K189? There are quite an number of threads about it (in praise).

Thanks Bud.
The only thing is, this is a 2nd-hand piano so the finish you get is what you get, it's ebony or nout. Only thing I could do is hunt about for a mahogany polish Schimmel I'd I suppose their none too common most of them are probably ebony polish, though my mum likes ebony. Only other thing would be to buy a brand new one at like £44,000 or whatever they go for new, I'm told that's what they retail for and I'd say that's about right given it's quality.

There is no way I'm gonna buy or be able to afford a new one, not unless I can get credit for long enough that the monthly payments are within my budget, that'd be like 10-15 years and I don't think you can get credit for that period.

The Weinbach 170 despite it's rather dull cabinet and naff wood finish, sounded really good to me, up top was abit mushy and sloshy sounding, but my tuner assured me once it's played in it will sound magnificent, it's pretty much brand new, though it's been in the showroom for like 10 years or so and hasn't been sold so obviously as others have said it'll need a good goin over and checked for dryness or whatever else.

I dunno, I can't hunt about for yonks, I do want to replace my Newman in the next year or so, I know you should not rush things like this too much, but whatever I buy I will get used to, won't have much choice I'll have to, yes you'd like to get it right as you can, but I'll be asking if I bought the right one whatever I buy, it'll hardly be perfect in every area I'll always find something to moan about, so best to decide on a quality piano that has the sound you most like out of what's available, if I went trying out all the pianos in Jame's warehouse, I'd still be humming and hohing next Christmas, might be the wise thing to do but I'd like to buy something this year, this Schimmel looks promising given what I played on it and looks the best value for money given it's pristine quality and age, I will keep the Weinbach on the sidelinne though, and maybe try some Yamaha's while I'm at it, but I'd like to shave down the number of options because otherwise I'd not make a decision, that's the type a fella I am, always wavering.

Sam it sounds like you are very difficult to please!

The Schimmel is a good piano, exceptionally well made, and that particular example looks pristine. If he's offering it for £18,000 and you have the money, then take it because they cost about £32,000 (the dealer for new Schimmel in the UK is Peregrine's in London, and they have a concert 189T for sale, new, at £31,390), and I'd say that's a good deal.

The Weinbach isn't a 'naff wood finish' it's in Satin Mahogany. The varnish on it is matt finish rather than gloss finish. Regarding the sound being a bit mushy up top - well, that could be something that brightens up with age, or it could be something else inherent in the design of the piano.

James Cameron has a Kawai KG-2 advertised on his website, it's £3750, which is a good price. Kawai is a good piano and this could be well worth a look if you can cope with the faded casework.

If Jamie or James are offering you credit without a deposit (and by deposit I mean like 50% of the price and then the rest over 3 years), then you're doing well. You'll have to see what you can afford according to what level of credit you can get from either of them.

I can't help get the feeling though, that one day we're going to sign in to this forum and we're going to see 'New Steinway Model A, any good?' ;-)

Haha good one Joe. Nah I don't reckon I'll be posting that very soon, I'm not that daft, I know what I can realistically spend, and that is a no-go for me, atleast for another 20-30 years anyway.

All's I was saying was, the Weinbach looks naff to me, I know it's satin, just the general cabinet design was putting me off, and when your spending money on it, particularly when your own baby grand is almost the look you want and cost you next to nothing, you've a right to huff n' puff all you want, especially when Yamaha's go for that sorta money and look nicer ,well to me anyway.

I know I am not an easy guy to please, I'm hardly ever happy with anything, ask my uncle he'll tell you. I find it funny you have to pay more for the likes of mahogany and rosewood than satin, when you get thousands of older piano's, most of which look nicer to my eyes, and they're all mostly wooden finishes, then again we're talking totally different era here, obviously back then wood was cheaper and more plentiful, nowadays that sorta finish is understandably costlier, not to mention it's desirable, given how you don't see nearly as many wood grained ones about as you do black or white ones. That's not to say it was naff Joe that was just how I felt about it.

Jamie wanted to speak to me today about something, I'll need to give him a bell tomorrow to see what he wants. I probably will just go with the Schimmel, my gut instinct is that, while it might have lacked the warm creaminess of the little Weinbach 170, it just seems the better instrument and looks like it'll last longer and serve me better, and who knows, maybe it will start to really shine once I start playing it, maybe my initial impressions of it weren't the whole story, I didn't play it all that much, so I couldn't get a proper idea of how creamy it was, that and I didn't have the 170 next to it to compare it to, see now that's the pain in the bum, as James told me, you can't really start to get an appreciation for what it'll be like until you have it where your putting it in the house, so maybe it'll be just right when I've got it in the house.

I'm gonna give Jamie a ring and see what he's saying to it, and I'll let you all know what the deal is.

Hi Guys
Just a quick update, my local tuner Jamie phoned me yesterday, and I told him I had been over at the Edinburgh piano Co and tried this Schimmel grand, plus the bigger Weinbach 192 which didn't really impress us like I expected it to.

He said he was looking out for a Schimmel and expressed an interest in buying one ,so I asked James if he might be willing to sell Jamie the Schimmel since he already gave him the little Weinbach 170. He hasn't came back to me yet be here's hoping because it would be a lot more convenient if I had both side by side to compare, and hey, even if I don't buy it, atleast Jamie will have what he wanted, though he did say I should be able to get one for less than £18,000, so dunno where he's got that from but he obviously knows better than I do.

He asked me again about the Weinbach 170, it is smaller than the Schimmel so I have my doubts, although that was the one that grabbed me at first save for the slight mushy sound above middle C, he said he's gonna voice it for me and then see what I reckon, I probably shouldn't use length as an indication of tone because the 170 didn't sound bad really given it's size but I dunno how It compares with the Schimmel directly because I haven't played both together at the same visit, so it's hard to compare them.

He also said I could come over next week to his Warehouse where he is currently restoring a C. Bechstein, a full restoration, new hammers, felts, board etc, and he says I might want to try that out, he's aiming for about £12,000 seems abit much but if I like it may be a good buy if the restoration is done well, it's a 6 footer so it's probably a Model A or something along that track, he couldn't remember off hand what model it was or it's age but he said to give him a phone next week and I can come and see what else he has.

However he did say he will still keep the Schimmel on the table and if he get's that one I want, I'll have all three, the Weinbach, Bechstein and the Schimmel to compare all in the same shop, though it does look like my sensible option is gonna be the Weinbach, if the Bechstein doesn't suit me, the Schimmel's gonna need a deposit, but I'll see what's what once they're all ready to rock n' roll.

A C Bechstein, full restoration, for £12,000? Seems rather unlikely. More like a partial restoration. Might still be good though. Might be a good move to get an independent technician to have a look at it though - if you are considering buying it. You want to know that the soundboard and bridge are in good shape.

Jamie is a qualified tuner and a technician himself, although your right in saying an independent or 2nd look over is a good idea, dunno I don't really like Bechstein's sound all that much, I'm still tempted by either the Schimmel or the Weinbach, having listened to a few clips on youtube, I reckon it might just be the Weinbach it just sound warmer and well, happier to me really. The schimmel really got me though with it's powerfull sound, but I'm not sure if that'd drive us bonkers if I play softer pop and balad type stuff, the little Weinbach might be better suited to my playing style. Should I be concerned about it only being a 170 or should that be big enough? Seems all the bigger ones I tried just didn't get me the same way, especially in the bass though once I have tried them all again I'll have a better idea.

Jamie's asking about £10,000 or so payin it up no deposit, seems fair enough given it's basically new.

Well, I say new it's been in the warehouse for quite a few years and others have advised me to have it checked for dryness, and other things, but it no doubt already has been if it's prepped for sale. I had my doubts about it's rather plain jane case and matt finish but really, that's not what's important the sound and touch is what it's all about, if I want to get it polished later on, I probably could. It is Rosewood, and the bigger 192cm version was Polished Rosewood and I loved that colour, so I guess you could get it professionally polished if you wanted to. Might not be cheap but I havn't found another 170 in this country in that finish that is close to me.

You may well indeed get a fully rebuilt bechstein for 12 k. IIt's not impossible but you need to know who did the restoration.

It sounds like the 170 weinbach is for you though.

Oh don't worry about the polyester - let it grow on you. Polyester finishes age quicker than satin anyway

Really, Joe? Is that including a new board - or would that be a refinished board that has had whatever attention it needs? In any case, a full rebuild of such a piano costs quite a bit more here in Australia. Then again, Australia pays more for everything piano related. This is not the country to come to for piano bargains!

Yes, it's possible in the UK. It's difficult but it's possible. For instance, if you have a core of say a bechstein model L, the 5 feet 6 model, you can have a new soundboard and plank installed, restrung, and the action rebuilt - oh and the frame regilded and refelted, and all the trap work and everything restored - MINUS the case work for around 9000 if you go factory direct. Well it might cost a little more than that but I know people are paying 13 to 17 k for full rebuilds including the case - the variation in price depends on the size of the piano and the finish.

In the UK there are no dealers who have their own workshop capable of soundboard replacement, and therefore they all go third party using either SAP or Piano Ficks in Poland, Steinway in Hamburg or Piano Restorations in Bucks UK. Or they just shim the original board....

Obviously going through a dealer costs more than going factory direct.

I find it surprising that one could go to a dealer and buy a fully rebuilt bechstein for less than 20 000 but workshop direct it is absolutely possible.

Unless of course the piano was fully rebuilt a few years back and is now being sold as a second hand rebuild.

The thing with rebuilds is you have to know what you're doing. I know many shops that sell rebuilt pianos and they are effectively tarted up piles of junk. A good way to tell is to start by having a conversation with the dealer about the instrument for sale. I know someone who was asked to leave a piano shop because he asked so many questions about the piano, the dealer became uncomfortable and put him out. Steinway and Bluthner in London are happy to let you look under the hood and inspect the piano through and through which is a good sign.