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Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1 vs N2/N3 (TRS and keytops)
briansaddleback #2302449 07/15/14 01:54 AM
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Originally Posted by briansaddleback

Also, I have to admit, the action was superior on the N3 than on the N1 when I checked both out a couple of months ago.


Yes, but the N3 and N2 have the exact same action I find.

Apart from the speaker system (and I have read a review that finds the N2 actually 'projects' the sound more and better than the N3), the N3 has better pedals (also according to this review, didn't try myself).

Now the dilemna is whether the price of the N2 is justified over the N1 considering by order of importance: a better keyboard and action /(much) better speaker system / nicer, narrower design / TRS...

(I will try to assess the gate/no gate issue with an mp3 player as aux in, as mixing with pianoteq might be useful to liven up the sound, which lacks some dynamics in ff/fff).


Yamaha C3X-SH. Pianoteq V5. Steinberg U22 USB.
Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1 vs N2/N3 (TRS and keytops)
fntms #2302451 07/15/14 02:44 AM
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Hello
I personnally took the N2 because of the sound system AND the TRS
I think it is not a gadget but a real feature that increase drastically the playing experience making it much more 'real'
It is really important for me

Now, about the price, N2 is clearly overpriced compared to real accousic, but when you cannot have an accoustic, and you want a real grand action..there is no choice (at least in my opinion, and in my situation)

About the difference between N1 vs N2/N3, I have NOT tried the N1, but I think (to be checked) that N1 are built in indonesia, while N2 & N3 are built in Japan
I am sure for N2 as I have checked, but if someone can check for an N1
Perhaps, it explains the difference (different manufactur)

Last edited by enzo.sandrolini; 07/15/14 09:06 AM.

Music is a lifestyle
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Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1 vs N2/N3 (TRS and keytops)
Karnevil #2302502 07/15/14 08:24 AM
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I believe someone stated earlier that the N1 was built in China.

As far as the actions go; Yamaha has stated they are identical, and perhaps they are -from a design stand point-; however, the N1 action is probably slapped in there right before it ships, while the N2/N3 get the full acousitic treatment; such as a proper regulation by a senior technician. I suppose the N1 could reach the standard of the N2/3 if properly adjusted/regulated.

If it turns out to be true that the black keys on the N1 are different, then yamaha outright lied about the actions being identical; unless they clearly specified that the actions, though not the keys are identical.

Made in Chinaroo does not necessarily mean bad quality; it simply means cutting costs which could potentially lead to an inferior product. wink

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1 vs N2/N3 (TRS and keytops)
Pete14 #2302515 07/15/14 09:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Pete14
I believe someone stated earlier that tha N1 was built in China.

As far as the actions go; Yamaha has stated they are identical, and perhaps they are -from a design stand point-; however, the N1 action is probably slapped in there right before it ships, while the N2/N3 get the full acousitic treatment; such as a proper regulation by a senior technician. I suppose the N1 could reach the standard of the N2/3 if properly adjusted/regulated.

Indeed, that makes sense.


Originally Posted by Pete14

Made in Chinaroo does not necessarily mean bad quality; it simply means cutting costs which could potentially lead to an inferior product. wink

I perfectly agree and did not mean other things, but..as you stated, different origin, different process...and perhaps different quality level required.
That could also explain the big price difference between the N1 and the N2/N3


Music is a lifestyle
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Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1 vs N2/N3 (TRS and keytops)
Karnevil #2302893 07/16/14 05:49 AM
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PS: not to put oil on the fire, but doesn't this Yamaha FAQ item clearly acknowledge the noise gate issue? (yes it's from 2010, but if this had changed I assume the item would have been deleted...)

N2 faq

"N2 N3 Sound Input to the AUX IN Jacks is Interrupted.

Last Update: 10/22/2010
The output volume of the external device connected to this instrument is too low. Increase the output volume of the external device.

The volume level reproduced via this instrument's speakers can be adjusted by using the [MASTER VOLUME] control."


Not such a big deal for me, as I would be mixing in Pianoteq mainly to get a more dynamic/responsive attack sound...

Last edited by fntms; 07/16/14 05:52 AM.

Yamaha C3X-SH. Pianoteq V5. Steinberg U22 USB.
Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1 vs N2/N3 (TRS and keytops)
fntms #2302904 07/16/14 06:34 AM
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smile
No problem, there are no fire smile
but I can assure you that my N2 has no noise gate
I simply made the test but using it as simple controler using its internal speaker and with the lowest sound possible..
Result => no cut off.

Now, as I said, I still think the best option is to mix sound for serveral reasons:
- I think velocity is internally processed better than MIDI value that is issued => you get a real good dynamic range
- You keep the TRS feature
- You keep the multichanel feature for internal sound

I made several tests with different VST, and Pianoteq gives thes best result by far

Cheers


Music is a lifestyle
(Happy Yamaha N2 and Roland FP90 owner)
Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1 vs N2/N3 (TRS and keytops)
Karnevil #2302913 07/16/14 07:15 AM
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There is a real mystery here, then: why is it that N2 and N3 are reported to truncate signals run through them, but Enzo Sardini's N2 does not.

Either: the noise gate on that piano is 'broken' - or set at a lower threshold ie zero.
Or: the noise gate has been disabled on that piano with user interface
Or: the noise gate has been disabled by some deeper change in the programming
Or: there are different versions of software on different N2 and N3 affecting cut-off

If it's the last, perhaps Yamaha are phasing out the gated line-ins. It is proved that they know there's a gate because on their FAQ page it says: 'sound input ... is interrupted'.

Cloak and dagger stuff.


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Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1 vs N2/N3 (TRS and keytops)
fntms #2302915 07/16/14 07:17 AM
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Originally Posted by fntms
PS: not to put oil on the fire, but doesn't this Yamaha FAQ item clearly acknowledge the noise gate issue? (yes it's from 2010, but if this had changed I assume the item would have been deleted...)

N2 faq

"N2 N3 Sound Input to the AUX IN Jacks is Interrupted.

Last Update: 10/22/2010
The output volume of the external device connected to this instrument is too low. Increase the output volume of the external device.

The volume level reproduced via this instrument's speakers can be adjusted by using the [MASTER VOLUME] control."


Not such a big deal for me, as I would be mixing in Pianoteq mainly to get a more dynamic/responsive attack sound...



This is simply a customer concern/query; however, Yamaha simply suggests raising the volume of the main source, or the instrument's master volume; therefore, yamaha is not admitting that there is a noise gate. "It's you, not me," says Yamaha.

For the record: I contacted Yamaha a few years ago regarding the -so called- noise gate, and they vehemenlty denied it existed. I posted part of the response on this forum. It was also implied that the problem probably had to do with my limited knowledge regarding software pianos, and not the product; in other words, the issue had to do with either the software, the connections, or the volume levels, yet the Yamaha representative insisted, 'You should be able to route a software piano through the AvantGrand's internal speakers without any problems.' Once again, "It's you, not me," says Yamaha.

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1 vs N2/N3 (TRS and keytops)
Karnevil #2302954 07/16/14 09:13 AM
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Enzo, thanks for your interesting reply. Given the limited midi velocity out of the N2 (I read 90 max) would it still be realistic to use only Pianoteq sound (no AG sound) with headphones (hooked to PC card)? This would imply to adjust the Pianoteq velocity curve quite a bit. Thanks.


Yamaha C3X-SH. Pianoteq V5. Steinberg U22 USB.
Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1 vs N2/N3 (TRS and keytops)
Karnevil #2303436 07/17/14 04:30 PM
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Hello fntms
Yes it is still ok to use pianoteq with headphones
Indeed you have to adjust the velocity curve in a big S form
And the max velocity value I get is around 100, as the long key travel allows a perfect control of the dynamic, it is not an issue
As I said, noise gate or not, the avantgrand are not really designed to be simple midi controller
The internal velocity has a much more wider range
But mixing it with extant source make it perfect
You can also mix the sound and get the result to your headphone (it is also what I do)

Last edited by enzo.sandrolini; 07/17/14 04:30 PM.

Music is a lifestyle
(Happy Yamaha N2 and Roland FP90 owner)
Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1 vs N2/N3 (TRS and keytops)
Karnevil #2304124 07/19/14 05:29 PM
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I was under the impression that only the N3 used a soundboard resonator; however, based on the -Yamaha listed- specs, the N2 also uses a soundboard resonator.

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1 vs N2/N3 (TRS and keytops)
Pete14 #2304423 07/20/14 02:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Pete14
I was under the impression that only the N3 used a soundboard resonator; however, based on the -Yamaha listed- specs, the N2 also uses a soundboard resonator.


You were right in the first place. Only the N3 has a soundboard so only the N3 has a soundboard resonator!


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Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1 vs N2/N3 (TRS and keytops)
Karnevil #2304450 07/20/14 03:03 PM
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Thanks for confirming the fact.

Yamaha needs to correct this info. Their U.S.A. website states that the N2 uses a soundboard resonator (under specs).

Per Yamaha's website:

Spatial Acoustic Speaker System: Yes
Soundboard Resonator: Yes

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1 vs N2/N3 (TRS and keytops)
Karnevil #2304490 07/20/14 05:12 PM
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As a matter of fact, Yamaha Europe also states that the N2 and the N3 both have soundboards with resonators, saying in the spec:

Soundboard Resonator Yes

whereas, for N1 and NU1, it says

Soundboard Resonator -

But, on scrutinizing their N3 page a little further, the mystery is cleared up. It seems that, while the N1 has no soundboard resonator, the N2 does have a soundboard resonator and the N3 has two soundboard resonators but with different functions.

The N2 and N3 both have soundboards under the keyboard, and the N3 has another soundboard on a plain with the main speaker baffle, directly behind the keyboard. The first is concerned with recreating resonance throughout the instrument (so they say) and the other soundboard is concerned with giving a 'realistic sound response, especially in the higher frequencies'.

So the spec sheet saying the N2 has a soundboard resonator is not wrong, apparently - it's just that it has one soundboard less than the N3 does.

Last edited by toddy; 07/20/14 07:04 PM.

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Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1 vs N2/N3 (TRS and keytops)
toddy #2304695 07/21/14 06:38 AM
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Originally Posted by toddy
So the spec sheet saying the N2 has a soundboard resonator is not wrong, apparently - it's just that it has one soundboard less than the N3 does.


I think we're at cross purposes here. A soundboard is a massive plank of wood found in pianos that vibrates. In the case of the N3 (and Kawai CA95s for instance) the massive plank is there and it vibrates as a result of artificial stimulation from an electric resonator speaker bolted to the soundboard. On the N3 and N2 there are further electric resonators under the keys to mimic the subtle vibrations of the keys on real pianos. On the N3 there is a further resonator on the damper pedal. These additional vibrations are what Yamaha calls TRS (Tactile Response System).

But the N2 does not have a soundboard as such.


C. Bechstein Model B | Roland RD-1000 | Kawai VPC1
Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1 vs N2/N3 (TRS and keytops)
toddy #2304715 07/21/14 08:00 AM
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Originally Posted by toddy
As a matter of fact, Yamaha Europe also states that the N2 and the N3 both have soundboards with resonators, saying in the spec:

Soundboard Resonator Yes

whereas, for N1 and NU1, it says

Soundboard Resonator -

But, on scrutinizing their N3 page a little further, the mystery is cleared up. It seems that, while the N1 has no soundboard resonator, the N2 does have a soundboard resonator and the N3 has two soundboard resonators but with different functions.

The N2 and N3 both have soundboards under the keyboard, and the N3 has another soundboard on a plain with the main speaker baffle, directly behind the keyboard. The first is concerned with recreating resonance throughout the instrument (so they say) and the other soundboard is concerned with giving a 'realistic sound response, especially in the higher frequencies'.

So the spec sheet saying the N2 has a soundboard resonator is not wrong, apparently - it's just that it has one soundboard less than the N3 does.


Perhaps the issue has to do with the terminology used by Yamaha. The device used under the keys (soundboard resonator) vibrates; however, it produces no audible sound. It is some sort of board that resonates/vibrates; hence, it should be called the "board resonator."

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1 vs N2/N3 (TRS and keytops)
EssBrace #2304723 07/21/14 08:23 AM
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Originally Posted by EssBrace
A soundboard is a massive plank of wood found in pianos that vibrates.......the N2 does not have a soundboard as such.


Right. So it's a problem of loose terminology as Pete said: the 'soundboard resonator' on the N2 neither has the form nor the function of a soundboard of the type found in pianos and hybrid DPs.


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Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1 vs N2/N3 (TRS and keytops)
toddy #2304769 07/21/14 10:14 AM
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Originally Posted by toddy
Originally Posted by EssBrace
A soundboard is a massive plank of wood found in pianos that vibrates.......the N2 does not have a soundboard as such.


Right. So it's a problem of loose terminology as Pete said: the 'soundboard resonator' on the N2 neither has the form nor the function of a soundboard of the type found in pianos and hybrid DPs.


Correctamundo!


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Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1 vs N2/N3 (TRS and keytops)
Karnevil #2305153 07/22/14 12:38 AM
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It should be called "Force Feedback" or "Rumble Effect" instead of having the word "Sound" and "Board" involved.


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Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1 vs N2/N3 (TRS and keytops)
Kona_V-Piano #2305239 07/22/14 07:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Kona_V-Piano
It should be called "Force Feedback" or "Rumble Effect" instead of having the word "Sound" and "Board" involved.


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