2017 was our 20th year online!

Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 3 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments.
Over 100,000 members from around the world.
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

Shop our online store for music lovers
SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
(ad) Piano Sight Reading
train piano sight reading with your iPhone or iPad
(ad)
Best of Piano Buyer
 Best of Piano Buyer
(ad)
Pianoteq
Steinway Spiro Layering
(ad)
Wessell Nickel & Gross
PianoForAll
Who's Online Now
38 members (doctor S, Boboulus, Damien PG, daz100, Beowulf, clothearednincompo, anotherscott, CraiginNZ, 9 invisible), 480 guests, and 417 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
Page 2 of 17 1 2 3 4 16 17
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 6,696
D
6000 Post Club Member
Offline
6000 Post Club Member
D
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 6,696
Originally Posted by faulty_Damper
Originally Posted by Mark_C
....and it was said (don't know if it's true) that this etude was the reason Rubinstein would never record the Etudes.

P.S. I did a little searching to see if I could find out about this, one way or the other, and I didn't. But in one of the references that talks about Rubinstein and the Etudes, I did find this:

"Even....Vladimir Horowitz....is quoted as saying that the one in C major, op. 10 no. 1, did not fit his hand...."

(Victor Lederer, A Listener's Guide to the Master of the Piano)


Because he used a very limited repertoire of movements as well as sitting too low, preventing use of those movements. He wasn't a very good pianist even if he sounded decent enough.


Who? Horowitz or Rubinstein?! Either way, you just made the "not to be taken seriously" list.

Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 69
F
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
F
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 69
Originally Posted by Damon

Who? Horowitz or Rubinstein?! Either way, you just made the "not to be taken seriously" list.


Don't worship them as idols. They were human, too.

Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 148
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 148
That doesn't give you a reason to trash their playing either. This reminds me of the Seinfeld quote about Babe Ruth being " nothing but a fat man with little girl legs."


"If peeing your pants is cool, consider me Miles Davis."

"If life gives you lemonade, make lemons. Life'll be all like whaaaaaat?" - Phil Dunphy
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 69
F
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
F
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 69
I wasn't trashing his playing. I specifically stated that "he used a very limited repertoire of movements as well as sitting too low, preventing use of those movements. He wasn't a very good pianist even if he sounded decent enough."

This should be understood quite well. However, because he was/is so admired, some people think that he is beyond reproach. This is idol worship. Idol worship allows people to have lower standards for themselves so that if they never achieve what their idols achieved, they can use the "mere mortal" excuse.

Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 9,392
A
9000 Post Club Member
Offline
9000 Post Club Member
A
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 9,392
Originally Posted by Parks
If you play an etude perfectly you've missed the point.

Completely confused here, care to explain? wink

So therefore if we play a Czerny etude perfectly (most can be sight-read), the point has been missed?

Does Ashkenazy miss the point?




Jason
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 6,696
D
6000 Post Club Member
Offline
6000 Post Club Member
D
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 6,696
Originally Posted by faulty_Damper
Originally Posted by Damon

Who? Horowitz or Rubinstein?! Either way, you just made the "not to be taken seriously" list.


Don't worship them as idols. They were human, too.


I don't worship anything. You said, and I quote "He wasn't a very good pianist" about a legend. Was Muhammad Ali a mediocre boxer? Was Perlman a mediocre violinist? Did Rainman have trouble counting?

Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 69
F
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
F
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 69
Originally Posted by Damon

I don't worship anything. You said, and I quote "He wasn't a very good pianist" about a legend. Was Muhammad Ali a mediocre boxer? Was Perlman a mediocre violinist? Did Rainman have trouble counting?


Do not confuse reputation for skill or expertise. And yes, Itzach Perlman is a mediocre violinist. Just listen to his recording of the Paganini Caprices; there are numerous issues with intonation. Further, you can't compare musicians with boxers. One is an art form, the other is a competition.

Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 9,392
A
9000 Post Club Member
Offline
9000 Post Club Member
A
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 9,392
Originally Posted by faulty_Damper
However, because he [Horowitz] was/is so admired, some people think that he is beyond reproach. This is idol worship. Idol worship allows people to have lower standards for themselves so that if they never achieve what their idols achieved, they can use the "mere mortal" excuse.

I have never seen any experienced member on this board make any claim whatsoever that Horowitz was 'beyond reproach'. Au contraire, many of us have issues with some of Horowitz's recordings!

The rest of your post comes off as a 'cut and paste' from a pop psychology magazine. Thanks anyway.


Jason
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 69
F
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
F
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 69
Originally Posted by argerichfan
Originally Posted by faulty_Damper
However, because he [Horowitz] was/is so admired, some people think that he is beyond reproach. This is idol worship. Idol worship allows people to have lower standards for themselves so that if they never achieve what their idols achieved, they can use the "mere mortal" excuse.

I have never seen any experienced member on this board make any claim whatsoever that Horowitz was 'beyond reproach'. Au contraire, many of us have issues with some of Horowitz's recordings!

The rest of your post comes off as a 'cut and paste' from a pop psychology magazine. Thanks anyway.


Don't be so insulting and derisive. Please keep the forum a positive place. And even if the experienced members don't make that claim of Horowitz et al, others do, as this thread has some examples.

Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 180
D
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
D
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 180
Originally Posted by faulty_Damper
Because he used a very limited repertoire of movements as well as sitting too low, preventing use of those movements. He wasn't a very good pianist even if he sounded decent enough.

Dare I ask what you think of Glenn Gould as a pianist?

Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 69
F
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
F
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 69
Originally Posted by daro

Dare I ask what you think of Glenn Gould as a pianist?


He had focal dystonia. If you injure yourself doing something you love, you're either a masochist or Glenn Gould. LOL!!! grin

Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 9,392
A
9000 Post Club Member
Offline
9000 Post Club Member
A
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 9,392
Originally Posted by faulty_Damper
And even if the experienced members don't make that claim of Horowitz et al, others do, as this thread has some examples.

Rather new here? Welcome anyway. wink


Jason
Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 148
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 148
Not very new to trolling, it seems.


"If peeing your pants is cool, consider me Miles Davis."

"If life gives you lemonade, make lemons. Life'll be all like whaaaaaat?" - Phil Dunphy
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 6,177
6000 Post Club Member
Offline
6000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 6,177
Originally Posted by argerichfan
Originally Posted by Parks
If you play an etude perfectly you've missed the point.

Completely confused here, care to explain? wink

So therefore if we play a Czerny etude perfectly (most can be sight-read), the point has been missed?

Does Ashkenazy miss the point?



By far the best version of this etude. thumb

Joined: Mar 2014
Posts: 561
P
500 Post Club Member
Offline
500 Post Club Member
P
Joined: Mar 2014
Posts: 561
Originally Posted by argerichfan
Originally Posted by Parks
If you play an etude perfectly you've missed the point.

Completely confused here, care to explain? wink

So therefore if we play a Czerny etude perfectly (most can be sight-read), the point has been missed?

Does Ashkenazy miss the point?

Hello Jason,

I don't care for Ashkenazy's piano playing, although I do like his conducting. In this recording: too fast. I hear, 'Take me to the grave now, please, I'm done with it all,' or 'The sooner I finish this, the sooner I can get back to that blueberry pie back stage.' Don't get me wrong, it is masterful, and I sense he has good intentions - good for him - but I don't enjoy the music. I feel he has missed the point because he has 'perfected' it.

I don't think we will see eye to eye here - and don't get too overexcited by this statement - because, no pianist disgusts me more than Argerich. Too fast, way too loud, grotesque. She rapes and pillages.

Originally Posted by faulty_Damper
Originally Posted by Parks
If you play an etude perfectly you've missed the point.
You're asserting that the purpose of an etude is that it is supposed to be difficult. In actuality, the purpose of an etude is to learn it so that it's easy to play.

This comes from a person who wants an easy life, or otherwise feels entitled to one. Art does not make life easy, it makes it possible. Etudes are not supposed to be difficult - and in fact, not all of them are - but, cannot one be taught something that is 'not difficult'?

It's up to each of us what we want to learn from an etude. Ashkenazy missed the point, because he did not learn what I would like to take from the piece, nor does he have to. (He's missed my point - arrogant of me, right?) His playing is fantastic! Fantasy is what he wanted, what he succeeded in achieving, and people respond to that. He has given to the world, and everyone wins. Me? I don't want fantasy life. I want to taste reality. Incidentally, I lead a fantastic life (in my view,) but I know there is more.

Fantasy is merely a color. What is Ashkenazy 'fantasizing'? Coloring? Nothing. I hear nothing, in any case. Now, he's not a robot, there is something, I just mean it doesn't interest me, doesn't nourish me, and doesn't' resemble reality - my reality.

Do any of you believe in 'objective art'?

I envision a sound for Op.10, no.1, that I cannot achieve yet. That sound is a feeling; that feeling a sound. Ashkenazy's sound does not correspond to a feeling - an emotion - I've experienced, and does not inspire me to such.

I shall not dismiss anyone's efforts. I just mean to explain my comment. I want more from life.


Michael

"Genius is nothing more than an extraordinary capacity for patience."
Leonardo da Vinci
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 6,651
6000 Post Club Member
Offline
6000 Post Club Member
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 6,651
... and it is because of ridiculous threads like this one that I haven't been around in a long time. Just one too many idiots seem to pop up far too often.
And out...



"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."

♪ ≠ $

Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 879
D
500 Post Club Member
Offline
500 Post Club Member
D
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 879
You get an inspirational teacher who knows what they're doing and (finally?) your playing takes off. It's tempting to believe that their way - now your way - is the only way. Bad way to think! There are patently many ways that work.

As bad, is deciding what you want from a piece and that anything different falls short. That is a closed mindedness which, amongst other things ties music down and diminishes it. It's probably better to accept that you're not the centre of the universe and that other perspectives can be just as valid.

John


Vasa inania multum strepunt.
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 17,299
M
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
M
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 17,299
Originally Posted by drumour
You get an inspirational teacher who knows what they're doing and (finally?) your playing takes off. It's tempting to believe that their way - now your way - is the only way. Bad way to think! There are patently many ways that work.

As bad, is deciding what you want from a piece and that anything different falls short. That is a closed mindedness which, amongst other things ties music down and diminishes it. It's probably better to accept that you're not the centre of the universe and that other perspectives can be just as valid.

John


I don't necessarily think there is anything wrong with having a conviction about how you wish to interpret a piece. I think, in fact, that one must believe what they're doing to such a degree that they can pull it off effectively. So I get what Parks was saying, I think. When I have a specific idea of how I want to interpret a piece, that is what I want to hear. Not that I can't enjoy something else, but if it differs too much from how I feel the music speaks to me, I may not choose to listen beyond once or twice. It somehow doesn't satisfy.

Still, I can get lots of ideas from other's interpretations when I'm not sure, or if I want to change things up a bit and look at something with fresh "ears".


private piano/voice teacher FT

[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 452
F
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
F
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 452
Originally Posted by Morodiene
Originally Posted by drumour
You get an inspirational teacher who knows what they're doing and (finally?) your playing takes off. It's tempting to believe that their way - now your way - is the only way. Bad way to think! There are patently many ways that work.

As bad, is deciding what you want from a piece and that anything different falls short. That is a closed mindedness which, amongst other things ties music down and diminishes it. It's probably better to accept that you're not the centre of the universe and that other perspectives can be just as valid.

John


I don't necessarily think there is anything wrong with having a conviction about how you wish to interpret a piece. I think, in fact, that one must believe what they're doing to such a degree that they can pull it off effectively. So I get what Parks was saying, I think. When I have a specific idea of how I want to interpret a piece, that is what I want to hear. Not that I can't enjoy something else, but if it differs too much from how I feel the music speaks to me, I may not choose to listen beyond once or twice. It somehow doesn't satisfy.

Still, I can get lots of ideas from other's interpretations when I'm not sure, or if I want to change things up a bit and look at something with fresh "ears".

I think drumour was talking to faulty...

Joined: May 2005
Posts: 10,961
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 10,961
Originally Posted by argerichfan
Originally Posted by faulty_Damper
And even if the experienced members don't make that claim of Horowitz et al, others do, as this thread has some examples.

Rather new here? Welcome anyway. wink

Sure - welcome. And since you are a new member - why don't you tell us a little bit about yourself. Your "profile" is rather open ended (i.e., blank). grin


Mason and Hamlin BB - 91640
Kawai K-500 Upright
Kawai CA-65 Digital
YouTube channel - http://www.youtube.com/user/pianophilo
Page 2 of 17 1 2 3 4 16 17

Moderated by  Brendan, Kreisler 

Link Copied to Clipboard
(ad)
Faust Harrison Pianos
Faust Harrison 100+ Steinway pianos
(ad)
Couch to Concert Hall
Couch to Concert Hall
(ad)
PianoDisc

PianoDisc
(ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad)
Mason & Hamlin Pianos
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Heintzman at the White House?
by Retsacnal - 04/18/21 12:43 AM
Yamaha p45 vs YDP 144 vs Roland rp102
by Shortshoppy - 04/17/21 11:48 PM
Action Regulation on 1982 Steinway B
by Harpuia - 04/17/21 11:34 PM
Estonia pianos though the years?
by PeterV73 - 04/17/21 10:09 PM
Yamaha digital keyboard YPG-535
by LeiSed - 04/17/21 09:11 PM
Download Sheet Music
Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads
Forum Statistics
Forums42
Topics206,369
Posts3,083,687
Members101,224
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
Please Support Our Advertisers

Faust Harrison 100+ Steinways

Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver

 Best of Piano Buyer

PianoTeq Bechstein
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads



 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter |


© copyright 1997 - 2021 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5