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#2304228 - 07/19/14 10:23 PM Moderators: Why was my Old Steinway Thread Deleted?  
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Paul678 Offline
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Was it because of the heated argument on there?

Why not just "freeze" the thread, so no one can
post on it anymore, but keep the thread so people
can still just read it?

frown


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#2304230 - 07/19/14 10:29 PM Re: Moderators: Why was my Old Steinway Thread Deleted? [Re: Paul678]  
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Minnesota Marty Offline

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Hmmm - This is rather unusual.


Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.
#2304259 - 07/20/14 01:06 AM Re: Moderators: Why was my Old Steinway Thread Deleted? [Re: Minnesota Marty]  
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Withindale Offline
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Originally Posted by Minnesota Marty
Hmmm - This is rather unusual.

As Paul678 sagely remarked, it's downhill all the way after a certain point.

My watchword is the best is yet to come, but one can only wonder about this forum after this and the unspeakable treatment of a respected rebuilder not so long ago.

PS Perhaps some legalistic issue necessitated the deletion of the thread. Who knows?

PPS Reason enough, Rickster (#2304324 below)

Last edited by Withindale; 07/20/14 09:36 AM.

Ian Russell
Schiedmayer & Soehne, 1925 Model 14, 140cm
Ibach, 1905 F-IV, 235cm
#2304264 - 07/20/14 01:22 AM Re: Moderators: Why was my Old Steinway Thread Deleted? [Re: Paul678]  
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Retsacnal Online content

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I was reading that page earlier, and when I tried to load page two the rendered page only had a message saying it couldn't be loaded or was corrupted (I forget exactly what it said). It did the same no matter how i tried to access page 2, and also if I tried to load all the posts in one page. If it was corrupted, then I'm not surprised that its been deleted. I've seen threads that were much more acrimonious that were left open (unless something on the second page went way overboard, and as Marty hinted, threads don't usually vanish, they just get locked).

Reading the OP reminded me of one of my college classmates. He was a mediocre BFA student, and a mediocre musician/thespian. He was interviewed after a show and was so giddy with his own "talent" that out of the blue he announced: "Shakespeare is overrated." Naturally, this was the only comment attributed to him in the paper and made a laughingstock out of him. Sometimes college students are so full of themselves that they think they can take down an institution based solely on their opinion. But he's not critiquing writers anymore...the last time I was home I bumped into him at the bank where he's working as a teller (we graduated in '93). I don't mean to belittle him--just making the point that college students are often full of themselves.

I was surprised that the thread got as much attention as it did. I'd sum up the first post like this: "old stuff doesn't perform as well as new stuff...duh."

And some of the follow up posts were valid:
  • new stuff can be improved (e.g. A brand new Mercedes can be turned into an AMG Hammer)
  • likewise, older things can be returned to their former glory, or to an even better state than new
and all of the above costs money (save letting a new thing deteriorate into an old thing)



I M A G I N A T I O N is more important than knowledge -Albert Einstein
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#2304324 - 07/20/14 08:03 AM Re: Moderators: Why was my Old Steinway Thread Deleted? [Re: Paul678]  
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Rickster Offline
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I am the moderator who removed the thread

Not that I owe anyone, except Frank Baxter and Ken Knapp, an explanation of why, as a courtesy to the OP of that thread and others Ill tell you why

When respected members/dealers/rebuilders here start attacking each other and calling each other liars and trying their best to discredit each other, it cheapens the integrity of this forum, in my view. I know the piano business is a tough, hard-knuckles, dog-eat-dog, incredibly competitive business, but Piano World is no place for dealers to do battle in public in front of the whole world and call each other liars.

I could have edited a bunch of comments in several posts, or even locked the thread, but I figured removing the thread was the best approach, especially since one of the individuals refused to edit his own post, after I asked him to.

So, there you have it

The OP is welcome to start another thread with the same topic if they wish

Rick


Piano enthusiast and amateur musician: "Treat others the way you would like to be treated". Yamaha C7. YouTube Channel
#2304336 - 07/20/14 09:29 AM Re: Moderators: Why was my Old Steinway Thread Deleted? [Re: Rickster]  
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Retsacnal Online content

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Originally Posted by Rickster
I am the moderator who removed the thread

Not that I owe anyone, except Frank Baxter and Ken Knapp, an explanation of why, as a courtesy to the OP of that thread and others Ill tell you why


Thanks for the explanation, Rick. I encountered the error I mentioned above while at the drive in theater with my girls, waiting for the movie to start. I probably had page 1 loaded, and then tried to load the already deleted page two... (I often just pull out my phone and start from where I was). The "fun" must have started after I loaded page one, and hadn't yet tried to load page two, and so the thread was sort of pulled out from under me.

I love reading all the expert opinions on this site. I don't even mind if they disagree--it's just more to digest and learn from. It's sad when people start to bicker and squabble though (and I've been guilty of it myself a time or two). It's easy to get sucked in online and post something regrettable. On the surface, it may seem funny to watch people go at it online, or to even antagonize others, but it ruins the sense of community and drives people away.


I M A G I N A T I O N is more important than knowledge -Albert Einstein
#2304338 - 07/20/14 09:38 AM Re: Moderators: Why was my Old Steinway Thread Deleted? [Re: Paul678]  
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Rickster Offline
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Originally Posted by Retsacnal
It's easy to get sucked in online and post something regrettable. On the surface, it may seem funny to watch people go at it online, or to even antagonize others, but it ruins the sense of community and drives people away.

My thoughts exactly. smile

Rick


Piano enthusiast and amateur musician: "Treat others the way you would like to be treated". Yamaha C7. YouTube Channel
#2304359 - 07/20/14 10:08 AM Re: Moderators: Why was my Old Steinway Thread Deleted? [Re: Paul678]  
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I'm probably one of the few who saw all of it. It did get pretty bad.

I'd like to support Rick in putting it away. Shouldn't have been left for people to read the meltdown.

I always take everything with a grain of salt online. I read much from many sources on acoustics. Always interested. Yes, definitely, if I ever have the money. I'll be visiting some rebuilders, one in particular, to see for myself.


Ron
Your brain is a sponge. Keep it wet. Mary Gae George
The focus of your personal practice is discipline. Not numbers. Scott Sonnon
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#2304388 - 07/20/14 11:23 AM Re: Moderators: Why was my Old Steinway Thread Deleted? [Re: Rickster]  
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Paul678 Offline
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Originally Posted by Rickster
I am the moderator who removed the thread

Not that I owe anyone, except Frank Baxter and Ken Knapp, an explanation of why, as a courtesy to the OP of that thread and others Ill tell you why

When respected members/dealers/rebuilders here start attacking each other and calling each other liars and trying their best to discredit each other, it cheapens the integrity of this forum, in my view. I know the piano business is a tough, hard-knuckles, dog-eat-dog, incredibly competitive business, but Piano World is no place for dealers to do battle in public in front of the whole world and call each other liars.

I could have edited a bunch of comments in several posts, or even locked the thread, but I figured removing the thread was the best approach, especially since one of the individuals refused to edit his own post, after I asked him to.

So, there you have it

The OP is welcome to start another thread with the same topic if they wish

Rick


Ok, fair enough Rick. I didn't realize you had
asked someone to edit a post.

However, deleting the entire thread without explanation was very confusing for those not directly involved in the conflict.

It's like being arrested without the cop telling you what the charges are, or what you did wrong! How can we avoid behaving badly in the future, if we don't know the errors of our ways?

Also, there was useful information in that thread, regardless of a few bad posts. Don't throw out the baby with the bathwater, as they say.

May I make a suggestion? I know most people don't like others telling them how to do their jobs, but I would suggest locking the thread first, deleting the offending posts, and then posting a final message stating the reasons why the thread is being locked. This way, people understand why we are being reprimanded, and the useful information in the thread is still there for all to read and learn from.

My 0.02

Pianoworld is still awesome!

thumb


Last edited by Paul678; 07/20/14 11:25 AM.
#2304393 - 07/20/14 11:32 AM Re: Moderators: Why was my Old Steinway Thread Deleted? [Re: Paul678]  
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I know of another forum where it is against the rules to even ask about a deleted post or thread.

I'm against deleting posts from a thread because it ends up making the thread incoherent and confusing.


Having power is not nearly as important as what you choose to do with it.
– Roald Dahl

#2304414 - 07/20/14 12:24 PM Re: Moderators: Why was my Old Steinway Thread Deleted? [Re: Rickster]  
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PaintedPostDave Offline
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FWIW, I support Rickster. thumb


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#2304419 - 07/20/14 12:47 PM Re: Moderators: Why was my Old Steinway Thread Deleted? [Re: malkin]  
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Minnesota Marty Offline

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Originally Posted by malkin
I'm against deleting posts from a thread because it ends up making the thread incoherent and confusing.

When the particular posts are nothing but name calling and finger pointing, there is no value gained from those particular postings to the topic of the thread.

As many of you well know, I have been involved in these types of back and forth. I've been working on tempering my responses, but what was in that thread went past the bounds of any type of civility. Cruelty is hardly acceptable behavior.

I was finding the thread to be interesting and aside from the sidetrack, I thought it was of value. The comparison and understanding of different viewpoints always makes for interesting discussion, as long as it is not vindictive or abusive.

As I stated earlier, I was surprised by the deletion, rather than selective editing or being locked. However, Rick is our Moderator and it was purely his decision, as it should be. Please remember, we are all guests in this forum and there needs to be some standards set for all of us to express our opinions on the topic, rather than other members.

Yes, I know, I'm guilty as charged.


Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.
#2304424 - 07/20/14 01:07 PM Re: Moderators: Why was my Old Steinway Thread Deleted? [Re: Paul678]  
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cheers to all and apologies to OP or anybody else who feels inconvenienced by all of this
Norbert

Last edited by Rickster; 07/20/14 02:54 PM. Reason: Inflammatory and continuation of feud between Norbert and Rod

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#2304426 - 07/20/14 01:11 PM Re: Moderators: Why was my Old Steinway Thread Deleted? [Re: Paul678]  
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I think Rickster does a terrific job in knowing when to intervene an when not, and also how to intervene. You can say a lot of things but not that this forum is over-moderated.
There was not that much in the thread (up till the moment I last read it) which is not already on the forum and Retsacnal summarizes it quite well.

I must say that sometimes I let myself being provoked into posting something I regret a minute or a day later. Luckily this forum has kind of a conscience wink


Last edited by wimpiano; 07/20/14 01:11 PM.

Schimmel 116 S
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#2304432 - 07/20/14 01:34 PM Re: Moderators: Why was my Old Steinway Thread Deleted? [Re: PaintedPostDave]  
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Originally Posted by PaintedPostDave
FWIW, I support Rickster. thumb


+1


Currently working towards "Twinkle twinkle little star"
#2304436 - 07/20/14 01:42 PM Re: Moderators: Why was my Old Steinway Thread Deleted? [Re: Paul678]  
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Retsacnal Online content

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Originally Posted by Paul678
...deleting the entire thread without explanation was very confusing for those not directly involved in the conflict.

It's like being arrested without the cop telling you what the charges are, or what you did wrong! How can we avoid behaving badly in the future, if we don't know the errors of our ways?

Also, there was useful information in that thread, regardless of a few bad posts. Don't throw out the baby with the bathwater, as they say.


I understand how you feel. When I first started posting, I'd ask a lot of questions. Sometimes arguments would ensue between those who answered and the post would get derailed by infighting. At the same time, I'd be getting some valid information. I remember once or twice trying to defuse arguments (it didn't really work). I was dismayed when the thread would get locked. But...

Originally Posted by Paul678
May I make a suggestion? I know most people don't like others telling them how to do their jobs, but I would suggest locking the thread first, deleting the offending posts, and then posting a final message stating the reasons why the thread is being locked. This way, people understand why we are being reprimanded, and the useful information in the thread is still there for all to read and learn from.


...at the same time, the moderators are volunteers and shouldn't have to waste a lot of time editing people's posts, and, frankly, babysitting. I used to maintain and moderate a forum for my High School many years ago (we've since moved into Classmates.com and then on to Facebook). I also used UBB, and it was pretty clunky software (at least then). It was absolutely easiest to just delete a thread than to update or delete individual the posts. And if you did try to edit them, people got upset that you were "changing their words," or "censoring" them (free speech isn't guaranteed on someone else's site), etc. There's no way to make everybody happy, especially when they're enraged already.

Anyway, I've been amazed at just how far the moderators here have regularly let people go before shutting down flame wars. Rick even usually issues a warning or two before hand. On most forums nasty stuff just vanishes, and as someone mentioned above, it's often in violation of forum rules to even mention or question it.

Originally Posted by Paul678

Pianoworld is still awesome!

thumb



je suis d'accorde!


I M A G I N A T I O N is more important than knowledge -Albert Einstein
#2304437 - 07/20/14 01:43 PM Re: Moderators: Why was my Old Steinway Thread Deleted? [Re: PhilipInChina]  
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Retsacnal Online content

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Originally Posted by PhilipInChina
Originally Posted by PaintedPostDave
FWIW, I support Rickster. thumb


+1

Rickster for President! wink


I M A G I N A T I O N is more important than knowledge -Albert Einstein
#2304438 - 07/20/14 01:45 PM Re: Moderators: Why was my Old Steinway Thread Deleted? [Re: Norbert]  
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Ed McMorrow, RPT Offline
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Norbert,
I must congratulate you on this post. I have been so bothered by the way you fill the field within which you post on PW with so M U C H S P A C E. This one is properly dense. Congrats!


In a seemingly infinite universe-infinite human creativity is-seemingly possible.
According to NASA, 93% of the earth like planets possible in the known universe have yet to be formed.
Contact: Ed@LightHammerpiano.com
#2304441 - 07/20/14 01:52 PM Re: Moderators: Why was my Old Steinway Thread Deleted? [Re: Paul678]  
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Norbert Offline
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I also support Rickster and understand that people don't want to get involved.

And "closing" we do want...

A very unfortunate case of forced confrontation in the industry.

Norbert

Last edited by Rickster; 07/20/14 03:05 PM. Reason: Inflammatory and continuation of feud between Norbert and Rod

www.heritagepianos.com
Greater Vancouver B.C. piano dealers for : Estonia, Brodmann, Ritmuller
604-951-8642 www.eliteheritagepianos.ca Edmonton, Alta dealers for Estonia,
Brodmann 780-405-8908
#2304442 - 07/20/14 01:52 PM Re: Moderators: Why was my Old Steinway Thread Deleted? [Re: Minnesota Marty]  
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Originally Posted by Minnesota Marty
When the particular posts are nothing but name calling and finger pointing, there is no value gained from those particular postings to the topic of the thread.

Agreed!

Originally Posted by Minnesota Marty
what was in that thread went past the bounds of any type of civility. Cruelty is hardly acceptable behavior.

I'm kind of glad I wasn't able to get to page two...

Originally Posted by Minnesota Marty
As many of you well know, I have been involved in these types of back and forth. I've been working on tempering my responses.


Marty, I'll take the good with the bad. You post so proliferously that you're bound to have a bad day now and then--just like any of us--we're all only human. I appreciate your wisdom, encouragement and your jokes.


I M A G I N A T I O N is more important than knowledge -Albert Einstein
#2304447 - 07/20/14 02:00 PM Re: Moderators: Why was my Old Steinway Thread Deleted? [Re: Paul678]  
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Minnesota Marty Offline

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Retsacnal - Thank you for your kind words!


Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.
#2304482 - 07/20/14 03:56 PM Re: Moderators: Why was my Old Steinway Thread Deleted? [Re: Minnesota Marty]  
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Originally Posted by Minnesota Marty
I've been working on tempering my responses, but what was in that thread went past the bounds of any type of civility. Cruelty is hardly acceptable behavior.

Yeah I understand this one haha, being civil on the internet is something that took me long time to figure out. Maybe I don't quite have it yet smirk .....it's just so easy to call someone an idiot! I always try to do better at it.


Poetry is rhythm
#2304510 - 07/20/14 05:43 PM Re: Moderators: Why was my Old Steinway Thread Deleted? [Re: phantomFive]  
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Originally Posted by phantomFive
....it's just so easy to call someone an idiot! I always try to do better at it.

Quote of the day!!!


Ian Russell
Schiedmayer & Soehne, 1925 Model 14, 140cm
Ibach, 1905 F-IV, 235cm
#2304521 - 07/20/14 06:15 PM Re: Moderators: Why was my Old Steinway Thread Deleted? [Re: Withindale]  
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Minnesota Marty Offline

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Originally Posted by Withindale
Originally Posted by phantomFive
....it's just so easy to call someone an idiot! I always try to do better at it.

Quote of the day!!!

What we need is the "Piano World Thesaurus of Derogatory Epithets."

Next time you threaten another member with a severe whippen, you might think better of it or they might call you a total back check!

wink


Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.
#2305043 - 07/21/14 06:31 PM Re: Moderators: Why was my Old Steinway Thread Deleted? [Re: Paul678]  
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Originally Posted by Paul678
Also, there was useful information in that thread, regardless of a few bad posts. Don't throw out the baby with the bathwater, as they say.


It might have been a little better to just delete everything from the first bad post onward, and lock it. But there wasn't much lost with the whole thing gone. Either way works for me.



-- J.S.

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#2305683 - 07/22/14 10:43 PM Re: Moderators: Why was my Old Steinway Thread Deleted? [Re: Paul678]  
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I have known Rod Verhnjack since he was a teenager. I knew his father. He is a very honorable person whose integrity has always remained intact. His posts here are always civil. His reaction to Norbert did not come from nowhere. He refused to back down because he knows his facts. That the moderator couldn't handle that is a shame.

But life ain't fair and that is a fact!


In a seemingly infinite universe-infinite human creativity is-seemingly possible.
According to NASA, 93% of the earth like planets possible in the known universe have yet to be formed.
Contact: Ed@LightHammerpiano.com
#2305703 - 07/23/14 12:09 AM Re: Moderators: Why was my Old Steinway Thread Deleted? [Re: Paul678]  
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I don't like how these forums are moderated. No offense to any of the moderators, I just think the moderators are unnecessary and too much is left to their own subjective judgement. We're all big boys and girls here and I think the whole moderator thing feels a little too much like grade school.
I'm a member of a few forums where the only role of the moderator is to ban members who break the rules. The rules are CLEARLY stated and all new members are required to read them. If they break the rules their membership and right to post is revoked. Simple. No need for subjective judgement calls. The rules are the rules and that's that.
I've read a lot of threads here that have been locked JUST when things, IMO, started to get somewhere (ie: thought provoking).
So what if things get a little heated? We're humans, not ostriches who need to find a hole at the first sign of conflict. We have opinions. Sometimes we passionately disagree. Who cares? It's why forums are stimulating to read, as well as informative and thought provoking. Yeah I know, if I don't like how things are done here I'm welcome to go elsewhere. But I DO like it here. I just don't like the whole Gestapo moderator thing. This is the internet--it's hardly even real life.



Pianist, Composer
Disclaimer: Shigeru Kawai Artist
#2305707 - 07/23/14 12:18 AM Re: Moderators: Why was my Old Steinway Thread Deleted? [Re: Ed McMorrow, RPT]  
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torrance, CA
Originally Posted by Ed McMorrow, RPT
That the moderator couldn't handle that is a shame.


That's not fair to the moderator. He does not have the luxury of choosing sides that you afford yourself, even if his sense of the situation happened to be the same as yours.

I'm annoyed by the decision myself because if you keep referring to some of these people as respected industry members and keep cleaning up all their dirty laundry every time they screw up, then they'll continue to e respected industry members even when they don't deserve to be.

But regardless of what you or I might think, the moderator did handle it. He took action. He didn't ignore it and hope it would go away.He tried to intervene privately. When that failed he did something else. Whatever he decided was bound to bring on criticism. That's the nature of the job.


Will Johnny Come Marching Home?
The fate of the modern wartime soldier
#2305708 - 07/23/14 12:18 AM Re: Moderators: Why was my Old Steinway Thread Deleted? [Re: Paul678]  
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 2,342
Retsacnal Online content

Platinum Supporter until Feb 18  2015
Retsacnal  Online Content

Platinum Supporter until Feb 18  2015


Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 2,342
🎹
I wouldn't compare the moderators to the Gestapo! I don't think anyone here needs to fear them.


I M A G I N A T I O N is more important than knowledge -Albert Einstein
#2305762 - 07/23/14 04:40 AM Re: Moderators: Why was my Old Steinway Thread Deleted? [Re: AJF]  
Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 971
Paul678 Offline
500 Post Club Member
Paul678  Offline
500 Post Club Member

Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 971
Originally Posted by AJF
I don't like how these forums are moderated. No offense to any of the moderators, I just think the moderators are unnecessary and too much is left to their own subjective judgement. We're all big boys and girls here and I think the whole moderator thing feels a little too much like grade school.
I'm a member of a few forums where the only role of the moderator is to ban members who break the rules. The rules are CLEARLY stated and all new members are required to read them. If they break the rules their membership and right to post is revoked. Simple. No need for subjective judgement calls. The rules are the rules and that's that.
I've read a lot of threads here that have been locked JUST when things, IMO, started to get somewhere (ie: thought provoking).
So what if things get a little heated? We're humans, not ostriches who need to find a hole at the first sign of conflict. We have opinions. Sometimes we passionately disagree. Who cares? It's why forums are stimulating to read, as well as informative and thought provoking. Yeah I know, if I don't like how things are done here I'm welcome to go elsewhere. But I DO like it here. I just don't like the whole Gestapo moderator thing. This is the internet--it's hardly even real life.


100% Agreed.

I prefer the old un-moderated Newsgroups. People
take care of themselves, and police themselves. And
useful threads don't get deleted. 4-letter words are how
humans communicate in the English language, why delete them?

Heated disagreements are a sign of passion and love
for the subject, in this case a common love of the piano.
We are not going to agree on everything, so why try to stamp out arguments if they are fruitful? Sometimes breaking the status quo is a GOOD thing!


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