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#2304177 - 07/19/14 07:51 PM Re: Play chopin étude op 10 no 1 at 104 bpm in a week [Re: daro]  
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Originally Posted by daro

Dare I ask what you think of Glenn Gould as a pianist?


He had focal dystonia. If you injure yourself doing something you love, you're either a masochist or Glenn Gould. LOL!!! grin

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#2304182 - 07/19/14 07:55 PM Re: Play chopin étude op 10 no 1 at 104 bpm in a week [Re: faulty_Damper]  
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Originally Posted by faulty_Damper
And even if the experienced members don't make that claim of Horowitz et al, others do, as this thread has some examples.

Rather new here? Welcome anyway. wink


Jason
#2304187 - 07/19/14 08:04 PM Re: Play chopin étude op 10 no 1 at 104 bpm in a week [Re: rov]  
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Not very new to trolling, it seems.


"If peeing your pants is cool, consider me Miles Davis."

"If life gives you lemonade, make lemons. Life'll be all like whaaaaaat?" - Phil Dunphy
#2304209 - 07/19/14 09:36 PM Re: Play chopin étude op 10 no 1 at 104 bpm in a week [Re: argerichfan]  
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Originally Posted by argerichfan
Originally Posted by Parks
If you play an etude perfectly you've missed the point.

Completely confused here, care to explain? wink

So therefore if we play a Czerny etude perfectly (most can be sight-read), the point has been missed?

Does Ashkenazy miss the point?



By far the best version of this etude. thumb

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#2304214 - 07/19/14 10:19 PM Re: Play chopin étude op 10 no 1 at 104 bpm in a week [Re: faulty_Damper]  
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Originally Posted by argerichfan
Originally Posted by Parks
If you play an etude perfectly you've missed the point.

Completely confused here, care to explain? wink

So therefore if we play a Czerny etude perfectly (most can be sight-read), the point has been missed?

Does Ashkenazy miss the point?

Hello Jason,

I don't care for Ashkenazy's piano playing, although I do like his conducting. In this recording: too fast. I hear, 'Take me to the grave now, please, I'm done with it all,' or 'The sooner I finish this, the sooner I can get back to that blueberry pie back stage.' Don't get me wrong, it is masterful, and I sense he has good intentions - good for him - but I don't enjoy the music. I feel he has missed the point because he has 'perfected' it.

I don't think we will see eye to eye here - and don't get too overexcited by this statement - because, no pianist disgusts me more than Argerich. Too fast, way too loud, grotesque. She rapes and pillages.

Originally Posted by faulty_Damper
Originally Posted by Parks
If you play an etude perfectly you've missed the point.
You're asserting that the purpose of an etude is that it is supposed to be difficult. In actuality, the purpose of an etude is to learn it so that it's easy to play.

This comes from a person who wants an easy life, or otherwise feels entitled to one. Art does not make life easy, it makes it possible. Etudes are not supposed to be difficult - and in fact, not all of them are - but, cannot one be taught something that is 'not difficult'?

It's up to each of us what we want to learn from an etude. Ashkenazy missed the point, because he did not learn what I would like to take from the piece, nor does he have to. (He's missed my point - arrogant of me, right?) His playing is fantastic! Fantasy is what he wanted, what he succeeded in achieving, and people respond to that. He has given to the world, and everyone wins. Me? I don't want fantasy life. I want to taste reality. Incidentally, I lead a fantastic life (in my view,) but I know there is more.

Fantasy is merely a color. What is Ashkenazy 'fantasizing'? Coloring? Nothing. I hear nothing, in any case. Now, he's not a robot, there is something, I just mean it doesn't interest me, doesn't nourish me, and doesn't' resemble reality - my reality.

Do any of you believe in 'objective art'?

I envision a sound for Op.10, no.1, that I cannot achieve yet. That sound is a feeling; that feeling a sound. Ashkenazy's sound does not correspond to a feeling - an emotion - I've experienced, and does not inspire me to such.

I shall not dismiss anyone's efforts. I just mean to explain my comment. I want more from life.


Michael

"Genius is nothing more than an extraordinary capacity for patience."
Leonardo da Vinci
#2304256 - 07/20/14 01:07 AM Re: Play chopin étude op 10 no 1 at 104 bpm in a week [Re: rov]  
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Here, as opposed to there
... and it is because of ridiculous threads like this one that I haven't been around in a long time. Just one too many idiots seem to pop up far too often.
And out...



"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."

♪ ≠ $

#2304281 - 07/20/14 05:17 AM Re: Play chopin étude op 10 no 1 at 104 bpm in a week [Re: rov]  
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You get an inspirational teacher who knows what they're doing and (finally?) your playing takes off. It's tempting to believe that their way - now your way - is the only way. Bad way to think! There are patently many ways that work.

As bad, is deciding what you want from a piece and that anything different falls short. That is a closed mindedness which, amongst other things ties music down and diminishes it. It's probably better to accept that you're not the centre of the universe and that other perspectives can be just as valid.

John


Vasa inania multum strepunt.
#2304321 - 07/20/14 08:49 AM Re: Play chopin étude op 10 no 1 at 104 bpm in a week [Re: drumour]  
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Originally Posted by drumour
You get an inspirational teacher who knows what they're doing and (finally?) your playing takes off. It's tempting to believe that their way - now your way - is the only way. Bad way to think! There are patently many ways that work.

As bad, is deciding what you want from a piece and that anything different falls short. That is a closed mindedness which, amongst other things ties music down and diminishes it. It's probably better to accept that you're not the centre of the universe and that other perspectives can be just as valid.

John


I don't necessarily think there is anything wrong with having a conviction about how you wish to interpret a piece. I think, in fact, that one must believe what they're doing to such a degree that they can pull it off effectively. So I get what Parks was saying, I think. When I have a specific idea of how I want to interpret a piece, that is what I want to hear. Not that I can't enjoy something else, but if it differs too much from how I feel the music speaks to me, I may not choose to listen beyond once or twice. It somehow doesn't satisfy.

Still, I can get lots of ideas from other's interpretations when I'm not sure, or if I want to change things up a bit and look at something with fresh "ears".


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#2304334 - 07/20/14 10:23 AM Re: Play chopin étude op 10 no 1 at 104 bpm in a week [Re: Morodiene]  
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Originally Posted by Morodiene
Originally Posted by drumour
You get an inspirational teacher who knows what they're doing and (finally?) your playing takes off. It's tempting to believe that their way - now your way - is the only way. Bad way to think! There are patently many ways that work.

As bad, is deciding what you want from a piece and that anything different falls short. That is a closed mindedness which, amongst other things ties music down and diminishes it. It's probably better to accept that you're not the centre of the universe and that other perspectives can be just as valid.

John


I don't necessarily think there is anything wrong with having a conviction about how you wish to interpret a piece. I think, in fact, that one must believe what they're doing to such a degree that they can pull it off effectively. So I get what Parks was saying, I think. When I have a specific idea of how I want to interpret a piece, that is what I want to hear. Not that I can't enjoy something else, but if it differs too much from how I feel the music speaks to me, I may not choose to listen beyond once or twice. It somehow doesn't satisfy.

Still, I can get lots of ideas from other's interpretations when I'm not sure, or if I want to change things up a bit and look at something with fresh "ears".

I think drumour was talking to faulty...

#2304360 - 07/20/14 11:09 AM Re: Play chopin étude op 10 no 1 at 104 bpm in a week [Re: argerichfan]  
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Originally Posted by argerichfan
Originally Posted by faulty_Damper
And even if the experienced members don't make that claim of Horowitz et al, others do, as this thread has some examples.

Rather new here? Welcome anyway. wink

Sure - welcome. And since you are a new member - why don't you tell us a little bit about yourself. Your "profile" is rather open ended (i.e., blank). grin


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#2304374 - 07/20/14 11:46 AM Re: Play chopin étude op 10 no 1 at 104 bpm in a week [Re: Carey]  
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Originally Posted by carey
Originally Posted by argerichfan
Originally Posted by faulty_Damper
And even if the experienced members don't make that claim of Horowitz et al, others do, as this thread has some examples.

Rather new here? Welcome anyway. wink

Sure - welcome. And since you are a new member - why don't you tell us a little bit about yourself. Your "profile" is rather open ended (i.e., blank). grin

Faulty was a very active member on the pianostreet forums, so I ask him -why did you come here? My guess is involuntarily... Anyways, welcome! You'll find that the general level of knowledge here is much higher than on your previous forum, so don't expect to be able to behave the same way you did before. You're having a fresh start! Think about this.

Last edited by Francisco Scalco; 07/20/14 12:05 PM.
#2304390 - 07/20/14 12:28 PM Re: Play chopin étude op 10 no 1 at 104 bpm in a week [Re: rov]  
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I don't believe in one infallible interpretation. I'll accept many. There may be a hundred ways to play a piece that work, and many that don't. I don't think Ashkenazy's worked because it was too aggressive, didn't breathe. Chopin was a delicate creature, and as vehement as some of his pieces are, they are always classy.


Michael

"Genius is nothing more than an extraordinary capacity for patience."
Leonardo da Vinci
#2304399 - 07/20/14 12:50 PM Re: Play chopin étude op 10 no 1 at 104 bpm in a week [Re: Francisco Scalco]  
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Originally Posted by Francisco Scalco
Originally Posted by Morodiene
Originally Posted by drumour
You get an inspirational teacher who knows what they're doing and (finally?) your playing takes off. It's tempting to believe that their way - now your way - is the only way. Bad way to think! There are patently many ways that work.

As bad, is deciding what you want from a piece and that anything different falls short. That is a closed mindedness which, amongst other things ties music down and diminishes it. It's probably better to accept that you're not the centre of the universe and that other perspectives can be just as valid.

John


I don't necessarily think there is anything wrong with having a conviction about how you wish to interpret a piece. I think, in fact, that one must believe what they're doing to such a degree that they can pull it off effectively. So I get what Parks was saying, I think. When I have a specific idea of how I want to interpret a piece, that is what I want to hear. Not that I can't enjoy something else, but if it differs too much from how I feel the music speaks to me, I may not choose to listen beyond once or twice. It somehow doesn't satisfy.

Still, I can get lots of ideas from other's interpretations when I'm not sure, or if I want to change things up a bit and look at something with fresh "ears".

I think drumour was talking to faulty...
Yes, and it's on a forum where we all can participate in the conversation. smile


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#2304402 - 07/20/14 12:55 PM Re: Play chopin étude op 10 no 1 at 104 bpm in a week [Re: faulty_Damper]  
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Originally Posted by faulty_Damper
Originally Posted by daro

Dare I ask what you think of Glenn Gould as a pianist?


He had focal dystonia. If you injure yourself doing something you love, you're either a masochist or Glenn Gould. LOL!!! grin


I don't see what's so funny.

#2304404 - 07/20/14 12:59 PM Re: Play chopin étude op 10 no 1 at 104 bpm in a week [Re: Morodiene]  
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Originally Posted by Morodiene
Originally Posted by Francisco Scalco
Originally Posted by Morodiene
Originally Posted by drumour
You get an inspirational teacher who knows what they're doing and (finally?) your playing takes off. It's tempting to believe that their way - now your way - is the only way. Bad way to think! There are patently many ways that work.

As bad, is deciding what you want from a piece and that anything different falls short. That is a closed mindedness which, amongst other things ties music down and diminishes it. It's probably better to accept that you're not the centre of the universe and that other perspectives can be just as valid.

John


I don't necessarily think there is anything wrong with having a conviction about how you wish to interpret a piece. I think, in fact, that one must believe what they're doing to such a degree that they can pull it off effectively. So I get what Parks was saying, I think. When I have a specific idea of how I want to interpret a piece, that is what I want to hear. Not that I can't enjoy something else, but if it differs too much from how I feel the music speaks to me, I may not choose to listen beyond once or twice. It somehow doesn't satisfy.

Still, I can get lots of ideas from other's interpretations when I'm not sure, or if I want to change things up a bit and look at something with fresh "ears".

I think drumour was talking to faulty...
Yes, and it's on a forum where we all can participate in the conversation. smile

Oh I though you understood drumour was talking to parks. Nevermind then.

#2304409 - 07/20/14 01:02 PM Re: Play chopin étude op 10 no 1 at 104 bpm in a week [Re: Francisco Scalco]  
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Originally Posted by Francisco Scalco
Oh I though you understood drumour was talking to parks.

So did I...


Michael

"Genius is nothing more than an extraordinary capacity for patience."
Leonardo da Vinci
#2304430 - 07/20/14 02:32 PM Re: Play chopin étude op 10 no 1 at 104 bpm in a week [Re: Francisco Scalco]  
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Originally Posted by Francisco Scalco

Faulty was a very active member on the pianostreet forums, so I ask him -why did you come here? My guess is involuntarily... Anyways, welcome! You'll find that the general level of knowledge here is much higher than on your previous forum, so don't expect to be able to behave the same way you did before. You're having a fresh start! Think about this.


Excuse you, but you imply that I behaved badly on that forum when it was the other way around. Other members behaved badly (name calling, sexual innuendos, personal attacks, etc.). They didn't agree with me so they attacked me. What's amazing is that other members didn't even read my posts but assumed, because these harassing members accused me of being uncivil, that it was true. Kind of like those teenage girl rumors intended to damage reputations, no one checks to see if it's true; looking at who the finger is pointing to, not the person pointing the finger. It was the people pointing fingers who had the issues.

Anyway, yes, there seems to be a slightly higher level of maturity and knowledge here which is why I decided to post. But there are still the young ones who still need to learn the difference between what is said and who says it.

#2304434 - 07/20/14 02:37 PM Re: Play chopin étude op 10 no 1 at 104 bpm in a week [Re: Parks]  
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Originally Posted by Parks
I don't care for Ashkenazy's piano playing... In this recording: too fast..


It's actually on the slow side. Chopin's own tempo marking is noticeably faster. Ashkenazy also accents a lot of notes on his way through the arpeggios which makes it somewhat grounded, percussive. The character of the piece is much more lifted, floating. Thus, he failed to capture the character.

#2304440 - 07/20/14 02:47 PM Re: Play chopin étude op 10 no 1 at 104 bpm in a week [Re: Parks]  
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Originally Posted by Parks
Originally Posted by Francisco Scalco
Oh I though you understood drumour was talking to parks.

So did I...
I did understand, and I was offering my opinion on the subject. What's the problem?


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#2304491 - 07/20/14 05:15 PM Re: Play chopin étude op 10 no 1 at 104 bpm in a week [Re: Carey]  
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You're basically asking him to try to behave better. I'm not sure it's about anything like that. It seems more a thing of what kinds of strongly-held views he has, unless he's just goofing on us, which I don't think he is. He seems genuinely to think stuff like that Horowitz and Rubinstein didn't play real well, not to mention that you shouldn't have to practice a piece like this very much. I'm not sure how we can help someone to be a good member when he just really thinks stuff like that.

#2304497 - 07/20/14 05:35 PM Re: Play chopin étude op 10 no 1 at 104 bpm in a week [Re: Mark_C]  
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Originally Posted by Mark_C
You're basically asking him to try to behave better. I'm not sure it's about anything like that. It seems more a thing of what kinds of strongly-held views he has, unless he's just goofing on us, which I don't think he is. He seems genuinely to think stuff like that Horowitz and Rubinstein didn't play real well, not to mention that you shouldn't have to practice a piece like this very much. I'm not sure how we can help someone to be a good member when he just really thinks stuff like that.
I decided to delete my post because, quite frankly, in the great scheme of things, it doesn't matter. grin


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#2304503 - 07/20/14 06:25 PM Re: Play chopin étude op 10 no 1 at 104 bpm in a week [Re: Francisco Scalco]  
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Originally Posted by Francisco Scalco
You'll find that the general level of knowledge here is much higher than on your previous forum...

Bit of an understatement. I haven't posted there in several years, and the site is no longer bookmarked.


Jason
#2304509 - 07/20/14 06:43 PM Re: Play chopin étude op 10 no 1 at 104 bpm in a week [Re: Mark_C]  
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Originally Posted by Mark_C
He seems genuinely to think stuff like that Horowitz and Rubinstein didn't play real well, not to mention that you shouldn't have to practice a piece like this very much. I'm not sure how we can help someone to be a good member when he just really thinks stuff like that.


Horowitz and Rubinstein (along with a host of other famous pianists) had poor technique. However, they didn't sound bad at all (though I strongly disagree.) For this reason, people make the assumption that if you sound good, then you must also play good. This is a fallacy. You can go from A to B via a straight line or you can take the most crooked path possible but still end up at the final destination.

As I've already stated, technique is nothing more than the movements necessary to depress the keys in a manner that reproduces the desired sound. If you don't use the best ones, you will be handicapping yourself, like trying to sprint by hopping on one leg. You should use both legs, keep upright, and swing the arms. While you can run without moving the arms, swinging the arms saves energy and you can run faster.

However, there are many pianists who run by hopping on one leg, without swinging the arms, or both. They get frustrated because they are exhausted and can't run as fast as they'd like. Then they can't figure out why other pianists don't seem to get tired and can run faster than they can. So they use the idol-worship excuse: those pianists are just different from the rest of us. In reality, the only thing they did differently was swing their arms and used both legs.

You can spend thousands of hours running on one leg but you'll never be as fast as using two. You can spend thousands of hours running with both legs but you'll never be as fast as you can by swinging your arms. If you did both, you wouldn't need to waste thousands hopping on one leg. You'd get there pretty quickly.

This is a very different paradigm that most pianists are aware, which is more practice=better pianist, i.e. practice makes perfect. Thus, because it's so contrary to what pianists believe, it's difficult to even comprehend what this means on the practical level so it's easy to dismiss it. And I guess in the grand scheme of things, it doesn't bother me that much that so many pianists are hopping around on one leg. But wouldn't running with both legs be easier?

#2304530 - 07/20/14 07:39 PM Re: Play chopin étude op 10 no 1 at 104 bpm in a week [Re: faulty_Damper]  
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Originally Posted by faulty_Damper
Horowitz and Rubinstein (along with a host of other famous pianists) had poor technique. However, they didn't sound bad at all (though I strongly disagree.)

Faulty - If you can/will acknowledge that this is YOUR OPINION - and not a statement of fact - you'll probably do fine here. grin


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#2304533 - 07/20/14 07:56 PM Re: Play chopin étude op 10 no 1 at 104 bpm in a week [Re: faulty_Damper]  
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Originally Posted by faulty_Damper

Horowitz and Rubinstein (along with a host of other famous pianists) had poor technique.

This is contingent on the placement of the "poor" cursor on the technique scale. It's probably more accurate to say that their technique was not nearly as high of caliber as is celebrated by pedagogy today; look at some members here who will praise long-dead pianists as the pinnacle of technical and musical achievement. Even in the music department at my school there are piano students who play technical circles around the sloppy Rubinstein. Horowitz was also quite sloppy and there is no reason to believe those who came before (Liszt, Beethoven, et al) were just as sloppy.

I agree that there are many fools who are stuck in the outdated and irrational scope of traditional piano pedagogy. Many of these people are active in these forums, but I'm speaking about their kind in general. They deny advancements in science and continue living in a bubble of self righteousness. And of course, as you've said already, the romantic appeal to dead pianists is fallacious thinking, but these sort of people are not worth your time: they literally live this line of their life in ignorance and are closed to objective, scientific, factual analysis.

Last edited by Atrys; 07/20/14 07:57 PM.

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#2304560 - 07/20/14 09:33 PM Re: Play chopin étude op 10 no 1 at 104 bpm in a week [Re: Atrys]  
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Carey  Offline
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Posts: 8,127
Phoenix, Arizona
Originally Posted by Atrys
Originally Posted by faulty_Damper

Horowitz and Rubinstein (along with a host of other famous pianists) had poor technique.

This is contingent on the placement of the "poor" cursor on the technique scale. It's probably more accurate to say that their technique was not nearly as high of caliber as is celebrated by pedagogy today; look at some members here who will praise long-dead pianists as the pinnacle of technical and musical achievement. Even in the music department at my school there are piano students who play technical circles around the sloppy Rubinstein. Horowitz was also quite sloppy and there is no reason to believe those who came before (Liszt, Beethoven, et al) were just as sloppy.

Perhaps "technique" isn't everything. smile

Quote
I agree that there are many fools who are stuck in the outdated and irrational scope of traditional piano pedagogy. Many of these people are active in these forums, but I'm speaking about their kind in general. They deny advancements in science and continue living in a bubble of self righteousness. And of course, as you've said already, the romantic appeal to dead pianists is fallacious thinking, but these sort of people are not worth your time: they literally live this line of their life in ignorance and are closed to objective, scientific, factual analysis.

Generally speaking, there are all kinds of self righteous fools in the world. Objectivity, science and factual analysis are fine as long as they are tempered with tolerance and compassion.


Mason and Hamlin BB - 91640
Kawai CA-65
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#2304562 - 07/20/14 09:46 PM Re: Play chopin étude op 10 no 1 at 104 bpm in a week [Re: Carey]  
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Atrys Offline
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Atrys  Offline
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Posts: 990
Originally Posted by carey

Perhaps "technique" isn't everything.

Agree 100%; what makes a musical legend is musical achievement, I only mean to speak strictly about technical facility.

Originally Posted by carey

Objectivity, science and factual analysis are fine as long as they are tempered with tolerance and compassion.

I see what you're saying, and agree on some level, but "tolerance" is not the right word. The problem mechanism I'm pointing at is the denial of truth, which is a disservice to education.

Last edited by Atrys; 07/20/14 09:47 PM.

"A good intention but fixed and resolute - bent on high and holy ends, we shall find means to them on every side and at every moment; and even obstacles and opposition will but make us 'like the fabled specter-ships,' which sail the fastest in the very teeth of the wind."
R. W. Emerson
#2304565 - 07/20/14 09:49 PM Re: Play chopin étude op 10 no 1 at 104 bpm in a week [Re: Carey]  
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 69
faulty_Damper Offline
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faulty_Damper  Offline
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Posts: 69
Originally Posted by carey
Originally Posted by faulty_Damper
Horowitz and Rubinstein (along with a host of other famous pianists) had poor technique. However, they didn't sound bad at all (though I strongly disagree.)

Faulty - If you can/will acknowledge that this is YOUR OPINION - and not a statement of fact - you'll probably do fine here. grin


How is it not my opinion? I am writing my own posts, am I not? (Yes, I am indeed.) Thus, it is implicitly acknowledged that it is my opinion on the matter. Further, it's already implicitly implied that these are not facts that can be verified (like the speed of gravity or the absorption of light by chlorophyll) because these are qualitative statements, not quantitative ones.

And about writing, when making an argument, it is unnecessary to constantly state, "my opinion". It's already understood it's an opinion. This is what is taught in writing classes - or has writing instruction dropped so low that people don't know how to write anymore? (Reading various forums suggests that this is the case, that many people don't know how to write to communicate clearly.)

#2304568 - 07/20/14 09:57 PM Re: Play chopin étude op 10 no 1 at 104 bpm in a week [Re: Carey]  
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Posts: 69
faulty_Damper Offline
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faulty_Damper  Offline
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Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 69
Originally Posted by carey

Perhaps "technique" isn't everything. smile


That depends on how "technique" is defined. Often, when discussing technique, for the ease of communication, it must be separated from the discussion of music. Otherwise, it would be difficult to tease apart sound and movement and the audience will have a difficult time understanding. Thus, "technique isn't everything" is understood in the sense that it is different from sound. However, in practice, neither can be separated. And since technique is a precursor to playing, technique is, in fact, everything leading up to the actual production of sound.

#2304569 - 07/20/14 09:59 PM Re: Play chopin étude op 10 no 1 at 104 bpm in a week [Re: Carey]  
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 9,350
argerichfan Offline
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argerichfan  Offline
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Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 9,350
Pacific Northwest, US.
Originally Posted by carey

Generally speaking, there are all kinds of self righteous fools in the world. Objectivity, science and factual analysis are fine as long as they are tempered with tolerance and compassion.

Interesting that Chopin wrote this about Liszt:

Liszt is playing my etudes, and transporting me outside of my respectable thoughts. I should like to steal from him the way to play my own etudes.

I do wonder if Chopin might have said that about Ashkenazy's Melodiya recording also.


Jason
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