Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Forum Schimmel Kozert 187 Grand Piano any good for the money?

Hi Guys
I know this is probably a daft question. As I've said in my other topics, I'm considering a new grand piano and I took a sonter by Edinburgh Piano Company, I tried their Weinbach 192 in Beautiful Rosewood polished finish. At 192cm, I expected it to be bigger and fuller sounding than the 170cm Weinbach I tried, but I was abit disappointed, it didn't sound as good to me, although it could just need a tune and a service as it's been sitting there for awhile it's about 10 years old or so and hasn't been sold so technically it's new, £13,500.

However when I tried the Schimmel Konzert 187cm Grand. It sounded very sharp with a well-pronounced bass, but kinda lacked a little warmh and creamyiness compared to the smaller Weinbach, even though the Weinbach was cheaper.

The Schimml was also in Black ebony so it wasn't as lovely as the rosewood, and I love that colour a lot more.

The Schimmel is 4-5 years old at £18,000 I think it was.

I suppose the Schimmel is probably the better instrument, although it's shorter than the Weinbach. It sounded better even though the Weinbach was great the when I played it first.

I could run to both pianos even though the Schimmel is dearer, but what does anyone else reckon, I don't know if because I played so many I couldn't do a proper comparison between them all.

I don't know which one to go for, what one is the better piano, I love the look of the Weinbach even though that's not the main thing to looks for, but the Schimmel sounded sharper when I was there. I dunno I might need to go back when the Weinbach is properly jazzed up. However which one would everyone recommend , even though the Schimmel is shorter is it better, once it's played abit, should it develop the warm tone of the European Weinbach or can it be voiced that way?

The smaller Weinbach 170 I was on about is in my local tuner Jamie's shop and it was lovely and warm sounding, although not as good in the treble, the 192 Weinbach sounded worse although as I say that could just be where it is and how it was set-up, it does need going over so maybe my trip wasn't a fair enough comparison and I need to ask for it to be serviced first. I was seriously considering the smaller Weinbach at £10,500 but hated it's dull casework, but after playing the Schimmel, if I'm spending that sorta money, that might make better buying sense as it's probably higher-quality, if only it could be toned down just a tadge in it's sharpness and given a little warmer sound, don't know if you can do such a thing or if once it's played and run in remember it's only 4-5 years old, it might start to sound wonderful.

Cheers if anyone can make any recommendations.

Unless you are in a hurry, I would wait a while to see what comes up. No need to rush into a £13,500 purchase.

No I'm not in any desperate hurry, I've gotta get things sorted first, I'm payin this up as I'm only 26 and a student. I just asked about what I looked at yesterday. Ye never know, I might find something selse come crunch time, but is Schimmel better than Weinbach? I'd presume it is given it's German'y volume piano maker, and I've seen some good reports of the newer Konzert range, I did try the 20 year old Schimmel 205, beautiful casework, ugly inards, not a bad sound but didn't get me too excited. I will be hanging about for a bit until I can arrange things with my folks as to what we're gonna do.

I don't know Weinbach so I cannot say anything about them. I do know Schimmel is good, the Konzert range is very good, HOWEVER, there is nor was a Schimmel Konzert 187. There is a 189.
Schimmel has a particular sound that you love or don't.

Ah right, so really if you don't like it's lack of softness in places, you can't really do much about it? Well here's the Schimmel I was on about. http://www.edinburghpianocompany.co.uk/pianos/grand-pianos/schimmel-187-konzert-grand/

I dunno if maybe they've got that size wrong or not, it is a few years old so maybe there was that size then I dunno.

Have a peak at the other pianos there, Weinbach, if your unfamiliar are a sub brand of the Czech maker Petrof, their cheaper more bre essentials brand, but still the little 170 had a fantastic warm tone, abit strange in the treble but that should ease out as it's played, both Weinbach's are now 10 years old so the Schimmel is younger.

I dunno what to do, I might go for the Schimmel if it'll serve me better, but I hate comparing pianos as you find one you like the tone of here, and another you like the tone of there, but not one you like the sound of all over the keyboard, so it's a trade-off really. Weinbach's havn't been imported to Britain for quite awhile so I need to decide between these 3, I do like the Schimmel and so does my mum, and she's making the decision on looks so I'm kinda stimeyed here as I have to get the looks right aswell. I'm just not sure if the sharp overly pronounced sound of the petrof will get on my case as the years go by if I'm playing more relaxed balady type songs where the Weinbachs lovely soft warm tone really goes well, I don't in case your wondering play any classical stuff mostly rock n Roll, Elvis, Elton John, Disney, all sorts a stuff, I know not your average piano habbits but that's just me, I also play fairly hard at times if I'm doin rock n' Roll stuff.

If by the way your interested have a swatch at my youtube channel, It's Samthebam4044.

I wouldn't buy the piano with the hope that it could be 'changed' to what you like. The best option is to buy the one you like the first time.

From your post, it doesn't seem like either piano is really grabbing you. That's why I suggest looking out for some more pianos, see what you can find. There is one out there that you'll really like.

To answer your first question, yes I would say that particular Schimmel is a good buy - if in as-new condition. However knowing how I love to bargain, I would try for an even slightly lower price. Or at the indicated price, negotiate for preparation/voicing according to your preference, plus two post-purchase tunings.
You appear somewhat confused by your search so far. Take a notebook, and scribble down appreciation notes on touch, sound, sustain, details of the overall build quality etc.
Buying a piano should be an exciting and very rewarding experience, especially one in your proposed price range.

When you finally play a piano that you love, and cannot be without, you'll know it's for you. As I well recall, it's almost a spiritual experience, and there will be no doubt in your mind that you've found the right one. Obviously that has yet to happen, so keep looking.
It is highly likely that if you have doubts on a given instrument prior to purchase, you will experience buyers remorse a short time afterwards.
Good luck on your continued search.

I agree with Tweedpipe.
What you said about softness, I wouldn't necessarily call it softness. It's more the tone is brighter, you can play it very soft though. If you are looking for a mellow sound don't buy a Schimmel, they're great, really really good, but not mellow.

Schimmel has a better reputation than weinbach, but it sounds like you don't like the piano.

I would choose Yamaha over both schimmel and weinbach, but that's me.

What are you looking for in a piano?

Yamaha is even brighter (thought their latest pianos seem a little less bright If I am not mistaken?).

I don't know if I would say "less bright," although I'm sure it can be voiced down; the way I would describe it is "richer tone."

Hi Joe
I didn't say I didn't like it, as I do play some ragtime when I do The Bare Necessities I like some crispness and power, but I also like warmth and abit of softness to go with it. Obviously you can't really have both in the one piano, the Schimmel sounded pretty damn good to me but it lacked the creamy warm sound of the weinbach 170, then again the 170 didn't have as nice treble.

What I should have done (and what I will do next time I'm in) is take the camera with me and record me playing my usual repertoire of tunes on each pianop, and then playing them back later on, y'see you try so many it's very difficult to keep track of what you liked and didn't.

If the Schimmel would last longer and serve me better as a better quality piano, I'm sure I'd get along just fine with it, as I said before you can get used to the sound of a piano once you sit down with it and play it for many years, but I know what your saying I kinda need to get this right but I don't really know what sorta sound I'd be happy with , I like one piano here and another up there y'know what I mean? It's hard to know exactly what you could live with and what would start to get on your nut after awhile.

I'll be paying another visit tot the showroom soon, I don't think I could go far wrong with any of these really, I tried a very mellow Bluthner in Jamie's the other week, didn'y like it at all, but I do like the warmer mellowness of an the older pianos I've had over the years, but not too much.

What I'd really like is the some of the sharpness and power of the bass in the Schimmel, but retaining the warm creaminess of the weinbach, don't know if you can get such a thing but the Schimmel might mellow up once it's played in remember what I said earlier, it's only 4-5 years old so technically it's still basically new and I don't reckon it's been played much from what James told me, so I could be judjing it unfairly from that viewpoint. As I say maybe once I get it in the house (that's another thing aswell how different it'll sound in different places, the big bold showroom with it's tiled floor doesn't give you an accurate indication of what a piano will sound like in your house), the Schimmel will sound wonderfull either way I'd get used to a piano eventually, I've got used to my Newman and I mean I hated that at first you've no idea, so this could be a great buy if I can get a good deal on it, my mum approves of it and that's half the battle.

Pianos don't start mellowing just because you play them in - in fact, it's likely to get even brighter because you will compact the felt on the hammers and make them harder than they are today. People get voicing work done to decompress the hammer felt after it's been played a lot to make it more mellow.

Honestly, it seems you are not really wanting to buy this Schimmel - it's not a heart-decision, it's a head decision - and a head that is not totally across all the facts at this stage. IMO, you need a lot more time to work through this. You seem anxious to wrap it up but in doing so, you will not think things through and you are likely to make a rash purchase that you regret later. What's the hurry? Relax and do this properly. Put your plan to record all the pianos you play into action. Make a considered decision. Best of luck.

I agree with Ando.

No your right I am rushing this bit but y'see I'm the type a guy who can hardly make a decision about what to go for, now that's not a great quality to have in this situation is it?

I would keep going "oh hang on I like this and then go pley the others and say, ah but hang on I like the sound of this up the top but not at the bottom, or whatever something's gonna be not completely to my liking, but given that James has many thousands of pianos in the warehouse, it'd be impractical to try em' all and even then you'd find differences in each one all of which would annoy you in their own way.

So, yes I can see what your on about it' a big decision, but I'd quite like to get rid of my baby grand in the next few months, so I'd like to choose something and have done with it, as I said I'd get used to the sound of most of the pianos I've tried, yes you'd like to have made the best possible choice but you have to pick something that might not be totally the muts nuts in every area, but it get's it right in most places, and in my price range that looks as if that's how it's gonna be, remember I'm paying this up so my choices could be only a few dozen.

I'm gonna try the Weinbach 170 again as that did get me at first bar the treble but as Jamie says it will get better as it's played as it is very new and hasn't been played before, and it has the softness , maybe a little lack of power but as I say I'm gonna take the camera and keep looking about, as you all mention I'm bound to find something I love.

Yes you most certainly can. This description is what DEFINES many of the best pianos. Shigeru Kawai, Steinway, Fazioli, Mason and Hamlin, Grotrian and yes Shimmel, are brands that are able to accomplish this.
It's largely dependent on the technical control of the pianist. Try playing the Shimmel again with the intention of producing a warm a gentle sound and then a 'crisp and powerful' sounds. You might be surprised at the sound your fingers produce.
Ever wonder why you see such varied descriptions of the sound of various piano brands here? It has a lot to do with the technical approach/ability of the pianist doing the describing. For instance, I've heard a lot of amateur/intermediate level pianists say they don't like the Fazioli sound because it lacks depth and seems one dimensional. Have you heard Herbie Hancock or Angela Hewitt play a Fazioli? Strange that the instrument sounds tonally rich and varied when THEY play it.

That's a bloody good bit of advice there thanks a lot. Yes I do need to do a bit more comparing between the pianos, I can't compare em all, but I'm reckoning this Schimmel might be a good buy given it's fine craftsmanship, I want the thing to last me, not saying the Weinbach won't but if I'm spending this sorta money I'd rather get the better built instrunment, but obviously as you say you Have to get what sounds and feels right to you, thing is you can't do that easily in a shop when you have a lot of folk with you, and I cannot come myself to Edinburgh back and forth many times, I just can't justify that many trips it's a fair ways from Glasgow, atleast 2 hours by train and bus, now you might think that's worth it, but I'd much rather get something I'm pretty happy with and start playing it otherwise I'd be tooling about for months and would not be making a decision, I'd be waffling if ye know what I mean. You might reckon I am being stupid by hurrying this along too soon but I will defo go back over and try the Schimmel properly and do a cross comparison with the Weinbach and a few others and then see what I reckon the best one is, but given the choice I have now of what's there and what I've seen it looks like this Schimmel or the Weinbach is gonna be the one, Steinway, Fazioli, are probably out of my budget y'see if I find any don't get me wrong I'll defo try em' out, but you have to remember your budget and what's available in it. You can't have everything if you only have 10-15k to spend.

Without wanting to influence your decision too much but the Schimmel is in quite a different league then the Steinbach.

Yeah I'd say it aught to be given it's like £6,000 of a difference you'd expect it to be, plus it's built in Germany versus the Weinbach which is built in the Czech Republic, didn't give us much confidence when I heard that one.

Having said that, the Weinbach, well the little 170 I tried, sound lovely especially the mid-range the treble was abit muffled, hard to describe abit sloshy way, ,the Schimmel had a nice powerfull bass, nice mid-range and treble, I didn't play it too much so I need to go play it again to get a better idea of what it sounded like, now that I recall it was actually quite soft at middle C, but the lower mid-range from there down and the bass just wasn't as warm and creamy as the little Weinbach, but as James Cameron told me, that could be the location of it, and the showroom as much as how others have said, the way it's set-up, could be a whold different story when it's in my front summer room, that's the thing I don't know whether I'm gonna like it till I get it home, I'm paying it up, and I'm sure Jamie or James would allow me to exchange it if I decided on the other piano within a month or so. Even at that if I had to keep the Schimmel anything's gonna be better as Joe said, than my little Paul Newman.

I would most certainly say less bright, especially in their newer C models and new CX models. The current issue of Piano Buyer does a better job of explaining this than I probably could.