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Re: Piano libraries experiment [Re: twl] #2302367 07/14/14 07:07 PM
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johnlewisgrant Offline
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Originally Posted by twl
Did not like the following at all
1 Perspective too far away
2, 3, 4 I really don't like to hear piano noises at all
5 Did not like at all, the choirlike effect
6 Too much reverb for me/Very low volume level
7 too distant mic perspective,
8 not my cup of tea reminds me of Imperfect Samples FAZIOLI
which I don't care for soundwise.


I did like the following
9
10

I only like pianos that are close mic'd/player perspective,very clear, slightly bright ....

Vive la difference. Thank you Lead.


Yup...piano sample preferences are, I think, almost completely subjective, or at the very least, "inter-subjective": what tends to please the majority is what we think of as "good." But not everyone fits the mold; and who's to say the contrarian is wrong?


J. S. Bach Well-tempered Clavier, complete preludes and fugues (with significant MIDI analysis):

https://soundcloud.com/johnlgrant



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Re: Piano libraries experiment [Re: Lead] #2302626 07/15/14 02:21 PM
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These are the libraries used arranged by filename i.e (number.mp3) along with their prices. The stars respresent how many times the library was picked as a favorite and or rated great in this thread.

1: 8Dio 1928 Steinway-$199 * * * *
2: Emotional Piano - Player Edition-$149 * *
3: Evolution Rosewood Grand-$179 *
4: Galaxy 1929 German-$270
5: Galaxy Steinway 5.1 Seround sound-$270
6: Galaxy Vienna Grand-$270 *
7: Galaxy Vintage D-$150 * *
8: Imperfect Samples Fazioli Complete-$200 * *
9: Modartt Pianoteq 5 Standard-$319 * * *
10: Sampletekk Black Grand-$139 * *

It seems like 8Dio was the most favored library which I found pretty surprising. I'm assuming its because of how old and aged the recording sounds, it gives tad bit of a realistic feel and blurs out the sampled sounds. Next comes Pianoteq, a library favored by many yet I never found it realistic sounding at all.

Thank you everyone for sharing your opinions with us and special thanks to john for his detailed and informative contributions in this thread, you have a very good ear.

Here is a track from 8dio productions rendered using the same library:
https://soundcloud.com/8dawn/legacy-1928-steinway-scoring

Originally Posted by johnlewisgrant
Question for the original poster: it's hard not to make significant CHANGES to the midi file for each sample, to bring out the best in each.

How did, and/or would, you handle that issue?


I tried to not mess with the midi but instead edit the VST velocity settings to what I thought sounded decent, though I didn't put too much effort on this matter.
I also tried to keep all the EQ settings and what not to the original settings that comes with the library software.

Re: Piano libraries experiment [Re: Lead] #2302637 07/15/14 02:54 PM
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johnlewisgrant Offline
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Originally Posted by Lead
These are the libraries used arranged by filename i.e (number.mp3) along with their prices. The stars respresent how many times the library was picked as a favorite and or rated great in this thread.

1: 8Dio 1928 Steinway-$199 * * * *
2: Emotional Piano - Player Edition-$149 * *
3: Evolution Rosewood Grand-$179 *
4: Galaxy 1929 German-$270
5: Galaxy Steinway 5.1 Seround sound-$270
6: Galaxy Vienna Grand-$270 *
7: Galaxy Vintage D-$150 * *
8: Imperfect Samples Fazioli Complete-$200 * *
9: Modartt Pianoteq 5 Standard-$319 * * *
10: Sampletekk Black Grand-$139 * *

It seems like 8Dio was the most favored library which I found pretty surprising. I'm assuming its because of how old and aged the recording sounds, it gives tad bit of a realistic feel and blurs out the sampled sounds. Next comes Pianoteq, a library favored by many yet I never found it realistic sounding at all.

Thank you everyone for sharing your opinions with us and special thanks to john for his detailed and informative contributions in this thread, you have a very good ear.

Here is a track from 8dio productions rendered using the same library:
https://soundcloud.com/8dawn/legacy-1928-steinway-scoring

Originally Posted by johnlewisgrant
Question for the original poster: it's hard not to make significant CHANGES to the midi file for each sample, to bring out the best in each.

How did, and/or would, you handle that issue?


I tried to not mess with the midi but instead edit the VST velocity settings to what I thought sounded decent, though I didn't put too much effort on this matter.
I also tried to keep all the EQ settings and what not to the original settings that comes with the library software.


Bravo! Great job! Very useful, for me at least!!! I've never heard of 8Dio!!! But your description seems to fit my analysis of 1.mp3, sort of....

No Ivory American... very sneaky!!! And what I think the best "fool the solo classical piano listener" piano sample was not there, either! I'm referring to the "Orchestral Grand", which is admittedly obscure.

A little surprised that 10.mp3 was the Black Grand. It's totally dated, yes; but give me your (excellent) midi file and I'm POSITIVE I can make the Black sound better!!!

Great job, anyway. Very instructive!!!



J. S. Bach Well-tempered Clavier, complete preludes and fugues (with significant MIDI analysis):

https://soundcloud.com/johnlgrant



Re: Piano libraries experiment [Re: Lead] #2302643 07/15/14 03:09 PM
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In blind test, I found following pianos nice:
5: Galaxy Steinway 5.1 Seround
7: Galaxy Vintage D
10: Sampletekk Black Grand

... and those sounding weird or artificial:
6: Galaxy Vienna Grand
9: Modartt Pianoteq 5 Standard


8Dio 1928 Steinway sounds soulful and interesting, but I'm no sure if I want to use it daily.


Roland FP-4
Re: Piano libraries experiment [Re: Lead] #2302651 07/15/14 03:22 PM
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johnlewisgrant Offline
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"I'm assuming its because of how old and aged the recording sounds, it gives tad bit of a realistic feel and blurs out the sampled sounds. Next comes Pianoteq, a library favored by many yet I never found it realistic sounding at all."

You've nailed it.

I would add: Pianteq is for live performance, not for "listen to on your stereo like it was a real piano."

I keep emphasizing the fact that "stereo listener" piano sound is TOTALLY DIFFERENT from the "sit down and play" piano sound.

With the VAST number of piano samples now on the market, that FUNDAMENTAL distinction seems to get totally LOST!!!


J. S. Bach Well-tempered Clavier, complete preludes and fugues (with significant MIDI analysis):

https://soundcloud.com/johnlgrant



Re: Piano libraries experiment [Re: kiedysktos.] #2302654 07/15/14 03:28 PM
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johnlewisgrant Offline
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Originally Posted by kiedysktos.



8Dio 1928 Steinway sounds soulful and interesting, but I'm no sure if I want to use it daily.


Precisely. The sampled piano you play on every day is just TOTALLY DIFFERENT from the sampled piano you'd want to LISTEN TO over your stereo (earbuds, car, home studio, headphones).

Ironic, perhaps.

But true.



Last edited by johnlewisgrant; 07/15/14 03:29 PM.

J. S. Bach Well-tempered Clavier, complete preludes and fugues (with significant MIDI analysis):

https://soundcloud.com/johnlgrant



Re: Piano libraries experiment [Re: johnlewisgrant] #2302675 07/15/14 04:00 PM
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You can download the midi used here https://app.box.com/s/irq5yxx1kgk7y7qdyrmy

Originally Posted by johnlewisgrant
And what I think the best "fool the solo classical piano listener" piano sample was not there, either! I'm referring to the "Orchestral Grand", which is admittedly obscure.


Are you by any chance referring to the Spitfire Orchestral Grand library?

Re: Piano libraries experiment [Re: Lead] #2302680 07/15/14 04:09 PM
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johnlewisgrant Offline
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Originally Posted by Lead
You can download the midi used here https://app.box.com/s/irq5yxx1kgk7y7qdyrmy

Originally Posted by johnlewisgrant
And what I think the best "fool the solo classical piano listener" piano sample was not there, either! I'm referring to the "Orchestral Grand", which is admittedly obscure.


Are you by any chance referring to the Spitfire Orchestral Grand library?


NOPE! (not even close)

http://www.orchestraltools.com/libraries/the_orchestral_grands.php


J. S. Bach Well-tempered Clavier, complete preludes and fugues (with significant MIDI analysis):

https://soundcloud.com/johnlgrant



Re: Piano libraries experiment [Re: johnlewisgrant] #2302755 07/15/14 07:30 PM
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Originally Posted by johnlewisgrant
Originally Posted by Lead
You can download the midi used here https://app.box.com/s/irq5yxx1kgk7y7qdyrmy

Originally Posted by johnlewisgrant
And what I think the best "fool the solo classical piano listener" piano sample was not there, either! I'm referring to the "Orchestral Grand", which is admittedly obscure.


Are you by any chance referring to the Spitfire Orchestral Grand library?


NOPE! (not even close)

http://www.orchestraltools.com/libraries/the_orchestral_grands.php


I see. Thanks! i'll give it a try (:

Re: Piano libraries experiment [Re: Lead] #2302765 07/15/14 07:56 PM
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johnlewisgrant Offline
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WOW!!!!

Just glanced at the midi file! That Chopin was NOT played live but was step-inputted, with very subtle and intelligent tempo editing.

I'm flabbergasted. I was totally fooled, which doesn't happen to me all that often.

The impossibly solid chords should have tipped me off! But I missed that....

Hmmmm.... I'm losing my ear!!!

Big time!

JG


J. S. Bach Well-tempered Clavier, complete preludes and fugues (with significant MIDI analysis):

https://soundcloud.com/johnlgrant



Re: Piano libraries experiment [Re: Lead] #2302838 07/15/14 10:35 PM
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EnGee Offline
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Originally Posted by Lead


1: 8Dio 1928 Steinway-$199 * * * *
2: Emotional Piano - Player Edition-$149 * *
3: Evolution Rosewood Grand-$179 *
4: Galaxy 1929 German-$270
5: Galaxy Steinway 5.1 Seround sound-$270
6: Galaxy Vienna Grand-$270 *
7: Galaxy Vintage D-$150 * *
8: Imperfect Samples Fazioli Complete-$200 * *
9: Modartt Pianoteq 5 Standard-$319 * * *
10: Sampletekk Black Grand-$139 * *



Thank you Lead thumb

Re: Piano libraries experiment [Re: Lead] #2302882 07/16/14 03:27 AM
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Fun experiment, and I'm amazed you got such a good midi file entering it step by step?

For an additional piano, I ran the midi file through the Garritan/abbey road cfx. It's pretty much default (no reverb/eq), but I made a couple mp3s using different mics since some people prefer distant and some close. I like the Mid mp3 best. Clicking a track shows the mix info.

https://soundcloud.com/user391187649/sets/piano-libraries-experiment

Re: Piano libraries experiment [Re: johnlewisgrant] #2302912 07/16/14 06:04 AM
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Originally Posted by johnlewisgrant
Originally Posted by kiedysktos.



8Dio 1928 Steinway sounds soulful and interesting, but I'm no sure if I want to use it daily.


Precisely. The sampled piano you play on every day is just TOTALLY DIFFERENT from the sampled piano you'd want to LISTEN TO over your stereo (earbuds, car, home studio, headphones).

Ironic, perhaps.

But true.




great observation John. I love playing the Ivory II German. Now i'm messing around recording with it and i'm wondering if it sounds too metallic. i'm finding i'm leaning towards the vintage D from a pure listening perspective as it sounds more intimate. But- to me- it doesn't play as intimate. i play ballad stuff (some people would probably use another s-word after listening) with a lot of jazz/blues influence.

i guess your point is playing involves 3 senses- hearing, sight, touch- and all three need to be satisfied. While listening only uses hearing. which means all your brain can focus on hearing and picks up more.

i guess....

but its a worthy observation for all those who come to this blog in frustration of their quest to find "the sound".


Steinway M; Roland V-Piano; Yamaha P250;
Ivory II Grands, Italian, American D; Galaxy Vintage D; True Keys American; UVI Yamaha C7; Ravenscroft 275; Garritan CFX
Re: Piano libraries experiment [Re: Jeff Hurchalla] #2302914 07/16/14 06:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Jeff Hurchalla
Fun experiment, and I'm amazed you got such a good midi file entering it step by step?

For an additional piano, I ran the midi file through the Garritan/abbey road cfx. It's pretty much default (no reverb/eq), but I made a couple mp3s using different mics since some people prefer distant and some close. I like the Mid mp3 best. Clicking a track shows the mix info.

https://soundcloud.com/user391187649/sets/piano-libraries-experiment


Thats very useful Jeff. I believe you are the same Jeff who is the piano developer for Garritan? Welcome to the blog!

as someone who wishes my ivory pianos had different mic perspectives, your 4 separate tracks reinforced that point. its is a very nice advantage for the garritan product. its hard to "simulate" distance in mic'ing by using reverb and EQ. one day i like what i've done with a setup, the next day i hate it.

If you could throw in a new faster computer and library SSD for your behemoth, i'd buy the CFX in a heartbeat!


Steinway M; Roland V-Piano; Yamaha P250;
Ivory II Grands, Italian, American D; Galaxy Vintage D; True Keys American; UVI Yamaha C7; Ravenscroft 275; Garritan CFX
Re: Piano libraries experiment [Re: Jeff Hurchalla] #2302948 07/16/14 07:53 AM
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johnlewisgrant Offline
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Originally Posted by Jeff Hurchalla
Fun experiment, and I'm amazed you got such a good midi file entering it step by step?

For an additional piano, I ran the midi file through the Garritan/abbey road cfx. It's pretty much default (no reverb/eq), but I made a couple mp3s using different mics since some people prefer distant and some close. I like the Mid mp3 best. Clicking a track shows the mix info.

https://soundcloud.com/user391187649/sets/piano-libraries-experiment


Very nice! What's the "dummy head"?


J. S. Bach Well-tempered Clavier, complete preludes and fugues (with significant MIDI analysis):

https://soundcloud.com/johnlgrant



Re: Piano libraries experiment [Re: bfb] #2302959 07/16/14 08:23 AM
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i guess your point is playing involves 3 senses- hearing, sight, touch- and all three need to be satisfied. While listening only uses hearing. which means all your brain can focus on hearing and picks up more.

Couldn't have said it better. You've nailed it.


J. S. Bach Well-tempered Clavier, complete preludes and fugues (with significant MIDI analysis):

https://soundcloud.com/johnlgrant



Re: Piano libraries experiment [Re: johnlewisgrant] #2303012 07/16/14 11:21 AM
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Jeff Hurchalla Offline
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Thanks for the welcome bfb. I usually just use an external USB3 drive, though I have to admit I love SSDs for just about any application (a 5 or 6 year old computer with a much newer (2TB+) hard drive inside is fine in practice)

John- the dummy head is a Neumann ku100 that we placed a few inches over the player's head, hopefully to sound like you're playing from the bench when you listen to it. It's easiest to explain with a picture
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/146368-REG/Neumann_KU_100_KU_100_Dummy_Head.html
(the windscreen for it on that page is hilarious, by the way)

Re: Piano libraries experiment [Re: Jeff Hurchalla] #2303052 07/16/14 12:56 PM
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johnlewisgrant Offline
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Originally Posted by Jeff Hurchalla
Thanks for the welcome bfb. I usually just use an external USB3 drive, though I have to admit I love SSDs for just about any application (a 5 or 6 year old computer with a much newer (2TB+) hard drive inside is fine in practice)

John- the dummy head is a Neumann ku100 that we placed a few inches over the player's head, hopefully to sound like you're playing from the bench when you listen to it. It's easiest to explain with a picture
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/146368-REG/Neumann_KU_100_KU_100_Dummy_Head.html
(the windscreen for it on that page is hilarious, by the way)


Wooow... $7999 for what really IS a dummy head!


J. S. Bach Well-tempered Clavier, complete preludes and fugues (with significant MIDI analysis):

https://soundcloud.com/johnlgrant



Re: Piano libraries experiment [Re: johnlewisgrant] #2303091 07/16/14 02:46 PM
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It contains the two microphones that's where the cost is. Nuemann mics can be ridiculously expensive. So can Telefunken mics Telefunken U47/U48 set only $15995.00!

Last edited by Kbeaumont; 07/16/14 02:46 PM.

A long long time ago, I can still remember
How that music used to make me smile....
Re: Piano libraries experiment [Re: Lead] #2303099 07/16/14 03:18 PM
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So I was the only one who got it right, by picking the I.S Fazioli as the best! I deserve a prize. smile

(running away with my fingers in my ears "I can't hear you, I can't hear you......")

Greg.

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