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Re: Damper Regulation difficulty [Re: benjamink] #2301252
07/11/14 06:54 PM
07/11/14 06:54 PM
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Minnesota Marty, you are not being clever. You are trying to make the situation worse.

It has nothing to do with the widths of M&H hammers; that never came into question until YOUR post.

This is a general piano technology and design issue that arose out of the discussion. Do you have something to contribute? Or, are you finished?


Masters degree in piano technology, +factory(s) training, etc., blah, blah, yada, yada, yada...[uncensored break-out in song]..."it don't mean a thing, if you aint got that swing."
--Klavierbaukuenstler des Erwachens--
Email: klavierbaukuenstler@gmail.com
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Re: Damper Regulation difficulty [Re: benjamink] #2301258
07/11/14 07:04 PM
07/11/14 07:04 PM
Joined: May 2012
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Rochester MN
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I would like to extend my congratulations to Lotsofquestions on selecting a fine piano which he/she seems to enjoy greatly.

The bottom line, that is what is important.

All else is mere obfuscation and has nothing to do with the original questions being asked.

And, as a general observation, you are incapable of understanding sarcasm even when it hits you like a ton of bird crap. Tis a pity, you might learn something.

Ta-ta


Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.
Re: Damper Regulation difficulty [Re: benjamink] #2301263
07/11/14 07:23 PM
07/11/14 07:23 PM
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And with that, I hope we will be able to move on, in this piano technology forum. Which is now trying to figure out what hammer width has to do with the performance of the piano, and, yes, even the regulation of the dampers.

What about the ideal hammer width? What is it, and why? Anyone else care to elaborate on what Olek was talking about re:hammer widths? Any experiences, observations, anything relating to hammer widths [in general] and damper regulation?


Masters degree in piano technology, +factory(s) training, etc., blah, blah, yada, yada, yada...[uncensored break-out in song]..."it don't mean a thing, if you aint got that swing."
--Klavierbaukuenstler des Erwachens--
Email: klavierbaukuenstler@gmail.com
Re: Damper Regulation difficulty [Re: benjamink] #2301279
07/11/14 07:59 PM
07/11/14 07:59 PM
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Bellevue, WA
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I've been following this thread but haven't been posting since I don't understand the correlation between the hammer width and the half (damper) pedal effect. Could someone explain this in simpler terms (I'm not a tech)?

I do understand how the hammer width has implications on the ability to use the una corda pedal effectively. However, that was not my original question.

On a side note, I feel like there is a lot of ego in this thread which detracts from the goal of this conversation and hasn't accomplished anything (in my opinion).

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Re: Damper Regulation difficulty [Re: benjamink] #2301293
07/11/14 08:42 PM
07/11/14 08:42 PM
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lotsofquestions, I have no idea what M&H is doing these days, but [other] manufacturers that use excessively wide hammers for what the design of the piano calls for (i.e., hammer width that was increased after the fact to raise the mass in a misguided attempt to somehow improve tone, but not with a corresponding change in the design of the plate and action), creates other problems in the system.

One of the problems of wider hammers is that, in those areas where the hammers are not bored straight (e.g., the tenor and the bass), you will have clearance problems and the hammers will rub unless you make a secondary change. That change is made by warping the hammer shanks so that the hammers tilt/lean and are no long centred above the shank. This the puts a tremendous amount of uneven strain on the action centres/bushings (i.e., prematurely wares them out) and sends the hammer wobbling towards the strings striking differently each time (i.e., the hammers do not shoot straight-up like a rocket in these areas do to the load being placed off centre). This in turn changes the string oscillations in those sections and affects how the dampers are able to do their job (i.e., the strings are struck more randomly from different directions and move differently). The sound of the hammers also suffers.


Masters degree in piano technology, +factory(s) training, etc., blah, blah, yada, yada, yada...[uncensored break-out in song]..."it don't mean a thing, if you aint got that swing."
--Klavierbaukuenstler des Erwachens--
Email: klavierbaukuenstler@gmail.com
Re: Damper Regulation difficulty [Re: benjamink] #2301295
07/11/14 08:45 PM
07/11/14 08:45 PM
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Québec, Canada
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Who knows Marty. Maybe A443 or BDB prepped and tuned a piano for you at some time. I don't know who all three of you are.

As far as hammer width is concerned, it does depend on the layout of the scale, the design of agraffes, capo bars etc...

I'm sure that I would like a less wide hammer and less weight as a pianist. I don't use the una corda, just my fingers. But that's just me.

As a tech tuning and regulating for any pianist who uses the una corda, then a wider hammer is preferable.

To each his own, vive la variété.


Jean Poulin

Musician, Tuner and Technician

www.actionpiano.ca
Re: Damper Regulation difficulty [Re: benjamink] #2301347
07/12/14 12:37 AM
07/12/14 12:37 AM
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I think it could be said that "pianist's" disagree about how the damper pedal should function and technicians who want to make pianist's happy with their piano have to learn all the ways that can be done.

Piano manufacturers want to sell pianist's pianos, so they would also regulated dampers to suit a customer if required.


In a seemingly infinite universe-infinite human creativity is-seemingly possible.
According to NASA, 93% of the earth like planets possible in the known universe have yet to be formed.
Contact: Ed@LightHammerpiano.com
Re: Damper Regulation difficulty [Re: Ed McMorrow, RPT] #2301357
07/12/14 01:21 AM
07/12/14 01:21 AM
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 7,439
Rochester MN
Minnesota Marty Offline

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Originally Posted by Ed McMorrow, RPT
I think it could be said that "pianist's" disagree about how the damper pedal should function and technicians who want to make pianist's happy with their piano have to learn all the ways that can be done.

Piano manufacturers want to sell pianist's pianos, so they would also regulated dampers to suit a customer if required.

First of all, I have no clue why a manufacturer would want to sell a pianist's piano. I suppose a stolen piano could be fenced and then the distraught pianist would need to purchase a new instrument. However, that wouldn't be exactly stellar for the builder's reputation.

There is no disagreement between "pianist's" (sic) and manufacturers on how a pedal should function. That is purely in the realm of the pianist's preference. Pianos are built for pianists. It is that simple.

Also, the entire tuning/tech professions are totally dependent on pianists. Without us, there would be no you. It is that simple.

I am always totally amazed when tuners/techs start to believe that their opinions on how a piano should sound, feel, or respond should supersede the wishes and preferences of the performer. All musical instruments are simply the tools/means of creation and interpretation in the hands of the performer. It is that simple.

This thread is a stunning example of how a few simple questions, from a piano shopper who found a piano which provided the damper control he preferred, could go totally awry. Lotsofquestions even posted a wrap-up concerning the twists which this thread took.

Though this is a forum concerning the technical and mechanical side of a piano related profession, the OP was only asking some very basic questions so that he might have a better understanding of what he could expect from a very specific mechanism on a piano which was in consideration.

Please read the response from Lotsofquestions which was posted a short time ago. It contains much wisdom and is worthy of further contemplation.

It is that simple.


Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.
Re: Damper Regulation difficulty [Re: Ed McMorrow, RPT] #2301365
07/12/14 02:15 AM
07/12/14 02:15 AM
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Bellevue, WA
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Originally Posted by Ed McMorrow, RPT
I think it could be said that "pianist's" disagree about how the damper pedal should function and technicians who want to make pianist's happy with their piano have to learn all the ways that can be done.


Can you provide the names of pianist's who disagree? I'd be interested in following up with them and learning how they think the damper pedal should work. I've had masterclasses with concert pianists - Jon Nakamatsu and Leslie Howard, and the few times the damper pedal discussion has arisen, so has the technique of half pedaling (as described by Anton Rubinstein).

Re: Damper Regulation difficulty [Re: benjamink] #2301378
07/12/14 03:19 AM
07/12/14 03:19 AM
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Posts: 2,348
London
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A good friend of mine, a professional pianist, swears by half-pedaling. For him it's one of the most useful tools-in-the-box!

Re: Damper Regulation difficulty [Re: Minnesota Marty] #2301379
07/12/14 03:20 AM
07/12/14 03:20 AM
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 2,265
Pretoria, South Africa
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Pretoria, South Africa
Originally Posted by Minnesota Marty
First of all, I have no clue why a manufacturer would want to sell a pianist's piano.


You're being facetious about an apostrophe error. It was perfectly obvious that the intended meaning was: "Manufacturers want to sell pianists pianos." If I, English being my third language, can understand this, then I am sure you could, too. In other words: simply a facetious response.

Originally Posted by Minnesota Marty
Pianos are built for pianists. It is that simple.

Also, the entire tuning/tech professions are totally dependent on pianists. Without us, there would be no you. It is that simple.


Just as cars are "simply" built for drivers. Does this mean that drivers should waltz into auto technicians' forums and explain to car designers and mechanics how a car works?

Oh, the hubris...

Originally Posted by Minnesota Marty
I am always totally amazed when tuners/techs start to believe that their opinions on how a piano should sound, feel, or respond should supersede the wishes and preferences of the performer.


And I am always totally amazed when you proceed to appoint yourself as arbiter of what should be written (by whom) in a technicians' forum. The mind boggles (at least, mine does).

Last edited by Mark R.; 07/12/14 03:22 AM. Reason: typo

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Re: Damper Regulation difficulty [Re: benjamink] #2301383
07/12/14 03:46 AM
07/12/14 03:46 AM
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Half-pedaling can be useful, although less so if the piano is really well tuned, but it works as evenly across the keys with dampers as possible.


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Re: Damper Regulation difficulty [Re: BDB] #2301385
07/12/14 03:50 AM
07/12/14 03:50 AM
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Posts: 2,348
London
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Originally Posted by BDB
Half-pedaling can be useful, although less so if the piano is really well tuned, but it works as evenly across the keys with dampers as possible.
Half-pedaling is where only the treble (tune bit) stays damped whilst the lower are undamped. There's no point if you even the damping throughout.

Re: Damper Regulation difficulty [Re: benjamink] #2301406
07/12/14 06:10 AM
07/12/14 06:10 AM
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France
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I think it is worth some more research

At Anton Rubinstein era, the pianos where very different from today.

The bass section by himself have not a similar extinction time as the mediums (the strings are heavy, the soundboard too, we have to brake all that motion an it is not that easy.

I would not be too surprised that a straight (visual) rise of the dampers would allow yet some half pedaling


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Re: Damper Regulation difficulty [Re: benjamink] #2301457
07/12/14 10:25 AM
07/12/14 10:25 AM
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France
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Study on half pedaling effect in the basses (Stulov) :

Half pedaling study

Last edited by Olek; 07/12/14 11:21 AM.

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Re: Damper Regulation difficulty [Re: benjamink] #2301458
07/12/14 10:25 AM
07/12/14 10:25 AM
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lotsofquestions,
I don't have a "list" of pianists that I can give you.

If I am paid to, I simply regulate the dampers to perform the way a particular pianist wants within the physical limits of what will work on a given instrument. It is that simple.


In a seemingly infinite universe-infinite human creativity is-seemingly possible.
According to NASA, 93% of the earth like planets possible in the known universe have yet to be formed.
Contact: Ed@LightHammerpiano.com
Re: Damper Regulation difficulty [Re: A454.7] #2301471
07/12/14 11:00 AM
07/12/14 11:00 AM
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Rockford, IL
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Originally Posted by A443
No, Cinnamonbear, none of this will apply to uprights.


Ooo. I sense a jab. eek Or, a misunderstanding. crazy Or, algorithms at play. smirk

In any case, just for the record, of the *grand* pianos I play regularly, one is a Steinway L, one is a Yamaha G3, one is a Yamaha C1, one is a vintage Chickering, one is a vintage Conover, and one is a vintage Haddorff that is the victim of a very poor re-stringing job. Once, I got to play a very solid Young Chang that looked like it wanted to be on stage, but was misplaced and abused by country club revelers. With all of these pianos, I have been able to find their sweet spots using dampers, the una corda, and scaling dynamics to match the room and the piano in order to make something that resembles music for the people listening. At least, that is what they tell me.

It is true, I have yet to play a Very Fine Piano.

But here is my point for lotsofquestions: I am happy you have found a beauty, and are finding out how to get it tech'd to your liking (that is something I *certainly* understand! (I have received the "There is no such thing as a perfect piano" lecture, and still pushed the envelope in the direction of "as perfect as possible" with my tech on a piano that most would say doesn't deserve that kind of attention. grin )) Something you probably already know but for some reason I feel compelled to say, is, if you are going to play for people outside of your practice space, you get the piano you are given, and all of the mapping and artistic weaving you've done during practice can quickly unravel with a recalcitrant, or simply different, instrument under your hands. Yes, get your instrument tech'd and tuned to bring you the most possible enjoyment! Absolutely, for now and evermore! But also, be prepared for the unexpected when taking the stage... wink

--Andy


I may not be fast,
but at least I'm slow.
Re: Damper Regulation difficulty [Re: Olek] #2301479
07/12/14 11:21 AM
07/12/14 11:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Olek
Study on half pedaling effect in the basses (Stulov) :

Half pedaling study


For that effect as described there, I am quite sure it is unnecessary to time the bass dampers early.

Last edited by Olek; 07/12/14 11:24 AM.

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Re: Damper Regulation difficulty [Re: Cinnamonbear] #2301488
07/12/14 11:45 AM
07/12/14 11:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Cinnamonbear
Originally Posted by A443
No, Cinnamonbear, none of this will apply to uprights.
Ooo. I sense a jab. eek Or, a misunderstanding. crazy Or, algorithms at play. smirk
No, it was not a jab. The issues literally does not apply to uprights; the mechanisms and forces at work are completely different. Since SMHaley could only point out a hammer width issue as it related to uprights, I had assumed this might have confused the issues for you.

Also, you will [typically] not have experienced the real 1/2 pedal effect on a modern Yamaha and Steinway, as they are not designed and setup for this.


Masters degree in piano technology, +factory(s) training, etc., blah, blah, yada, yada, yada...[uncensored break-out in song]..."it don't mean a thing, if you aint got that swing."
--Klavierbaukuenstler des Erwachens--
Email: klavierbaukuenstler@gmail.com
Re: Damper Regulation difficulty [Re: benjamink] #2301496
07/12/14 12:01 PM
07/12/14 12:01 PM
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Even if there were flat dampers throughout the range of the piano, half-pedal effects would be greater in the bass than in the treble, because the strings vibrate a greater distance in the bass notes than the treble notes. Half-pedaling will either have more of an effect in the bass than the treble, or the damper pedal will be very irregular. The worst area would be the transition between the wound strings and the plain strings.


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