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Re: Criticize My Temperament Recording [Re: Hakki] #2299282
07/06/14 08:52 PM
07/06/14 08:52 PM
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Seattle, WA USA
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Ed McMorrow, RPT Offline
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It is just like how you get to Carnegie Hall-practice, practice, practice.

Set A220 to A440 using the 3rd/10th test but lower A220 enough that the 3rd is ever so slightly slower than the 10th. Then tune your fourth above A220 to 1 beat per second. The beat rate of the 5th from E to A440 will be slowed by the exact same amount you widened the 4-2 octave. And that sounds good. Usually means the fifth is narrowed by 1.5 cent, and the fourth is at nearly two cents wide.

This is why inharmonicity is good. It lets you improve on the tempering to reduce the beat rates of the 5ths in the middle of the piano by widening the 4-2 octaves. But as you move the temperament up the compass, bring the 4-2 octaves into unison. And as you get to top, bring the 2-1 octaves nearly into unison.


In a seemingly infinite universe-infinite human creativity is-seemingly possible.
According to NASA, 93% of the earth like planets possible in the known universe have yet to be formed.
Contact: Ed@LightHammerpiano.com
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Re: Criticize My Temperament Recording [Re: Ed McMorrow, RPT] #2299359
07/07/14 12:43 AM
07/07/14 12:43 AM
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 2,499
Vancouver, Canada
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It should perhaps be mentioned that the quality of progression of the M3/M6 beatrates of this aural tuning by Hakki has not been surpassed by anyone here who posted audio samples of their tunings, ETD or aural, with the exception of Berhard Stopper, who used a customized version of his OnlyPure software.

Kees

Re: Criticize My Temperament Recording [Re: DoelKees] #2299380
07/07/14 02:49 AM
07/07/14 02:49 AM
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Seattle
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Originally Posted by DoelKees
It should perhaps be mentioned that the quality of progression of the M3/M6 beatrates of this aural tuning by Hakki has not been surpassed by anyone here who posted audio samples of their tunings, ETD or aural, with the exception of Berhard Stopper, who used a customized version of his OnlyPure software.

Kees


I think it also bears mentioning that we don't know if Hakki actually tuned this as there is absolutely no proof. All we have is recordings of intervals, some of which not with clean unisons... Certainly not horrible but also not perfect either. We also know nothing about the stability of whatever has been done here. Fussing around with a piano that has had various tinkerings with ETD's and so forth really proves nothing. We also haven't heard anything beyond the temperament octave. The rest matters just as much, if not more so. I remain as ambivalent about it as I am unimpressed.


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Re: Criticize My Temperament Recording [Re: SMHaley] #2299383
07/07/14 03:05 AM
07/07/14 03:05 AM
Joined: May 2010
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Vancouver, Canada
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Originally Posted by SMHaley
Originally Posted by DoelKees
It should perhaps be mentioned that the quality of progression of the M3/M6 beatrates of this aural tuning by Hakki has not been surpassed by anyone here who posted audio samples of their tunings, ETD or aural, with the exception of Berhard Stopper, who used a customized version of his OnlyPure software.

Kees


I think it also bears mentioning that we don't know if Hakki actually tuned this as there is absolutely no proof. All we have is recordings of intervals, some of which not with clean unisons... Certainly not horrible but also not perfect either. We also know nothing about the stability of whatever has been done here. Fussing around with a piano that has had various tinkerings with ETD's and so forth really proves nothing. We also haven't heard anything beyond the temperament octave. The rest matters just as much, if not more so. I remain as ambivalent about it as I am unimpressed.

I am impressed by your ability to detect unclean unisons from what I thought to be single string intervals, as well as imperfections that are beyond what I can measure.

I'll be happy to measure beats on your M3/M6 progression if you'd care to post them, to prove your superiority. Including a sworn statement by a notary public that you actually tuned what you posted of course.

Kees

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Re: Criticize My Temperament Recording [Re: Hakki] #2299446
07/07/14 08:48 AM
07/07/14 08:48 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 4,812
USA
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Bob Offline
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This temperament is proof that thirds can be pretty good, even though some 4ths and 5ths are a bit wild. The trick is to get all the intervals as good as possible. My ETD will often tune a temperament like that - and I fix it by ear before continuing. Having said that, for a newbie, it's a pretty good effort.




Re: Criticize My Temperament Recording [Re: Hakki] #2299468
07/07/14 09:50 AM
07/07/14 09:50 AM
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Posts: 9,230
France
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Olek Offline
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The 5ths can be progressively cleaner, that at last helps to have some coloring change between tonalities.

In fact, when the 5ths are good, the M3 will, hence the interest and difficulty to learn 5ths . I find also they help for octaves.

Yes it looks as an ETD result


Last edited by Olek; 07/07/14 09:51 AM.

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Re: Criticize My Temperament Recording [Re: DoelKees] #2299474
07/07/14 10:21 AM
07/07/14 10:21 AM
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Seattle
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Originally Posted by DoelKees

I am impressed by your ability to detect unclean unisons from what I thought to be single string intervals, as well as imperfections that are beyond what I can measure.

I'll be happy to measure beats on your M3/M6 progression if you'd care to post them, to prove your superiority. Including a sworn statement by a notary public that you actually tuned what you posted of course.

Kees


If you listen carefully to the "Hamburg Sequence" at 0:21 - 0:29 the tenor C below is quite obviously out of unison and not muted to a single string. I'm surprised your sophisticated equipment didn't catch that, but for some reason my aural tuning ears did. Apparently, despite all the talk, Mr. Hakki didn't catch what is usually the first annoyance of most pianists, or just didn't bother to continue beyond the temperament. Such a thing, is really quite pointless.

After all the input given in the PTG thread on tuning I'm surprised one would be so bold to submit such a thing and then convince us it was aurally tuned and give absolutely no evidence what so ever that it was. I remain as skeptical as always.


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Re: Criticize My Temperament Recording [Re: Hakki] #2299512
07/07/14 12:17 PM
07/07/14 12:17 PM
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France
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Olek Offline
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Well, whatever, the result is what matters and it is not really bad


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Re: Criticize My Temperament Recording [Re: Hakki] #2299522
07/07/14 12:45 PM
07/07/14 12:45 PM
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Hakki Offline OP
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After tinkering with the a3-a4 temperament yesterday, and before that with the e3-e4, today when I came back from work, I found that the pitch has dropped by itself.

It is obvious that I am certainly not using the hammer correctly, and I won't be tinkering with the temperament octave anymore. Wish I had a cheap practice piano to try these things out more, but I can't risk my RX-2.

Anyway it was worth the experience. Be it 99% rookie's luck, now I can better understand why aural tuners might have more satisfaction with their work. It is really a very great feeling to know that one has accomplished a difficult task.

Re: Criticize My Temperament Recording [Re: Olek] #2299563
07/07/14 02:33 PM
07/07/14 02:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Olek
Well, whatever, the result is what matters and it is not really bad


Yes and certainly that must be acknowledged. I think you may be right Isaac about the ETD part. It seems, with very few exceptions, that most who start out with doing an aural equal temperament make the 4ths and 5ths too pure, and it takes a great deal of practice to let go of that in favor of properly progressing 3rds and placing the other intervals in proper relationship. So if Hakki did indeed do this "from scratch" with out any pre-existing foundation for the temperament (unlikely) that is indeed some remarkable beginners luck.

But here is an admission as well...
Originally Posted by Hakki
...today when I came back from work, I found that the pitch has dropped by itself.
I think these results would be more interesting to me to hear than what was originally provided.

I think on my score card I would give a B- for the temperament, and well, subject to further evidence, a D on stability. A temperament that moves isn't very useful.

Originally Posted by Hakki
Wish I had a cheap practice piano to try these things out more, but I can't risk my RX-2.
That's probably a good idea. It's suffered enough.


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Re: Criticize My Temperament Recording [Re: Hakki] #2299598
07/07/14 04:06 PM
07/07/14 04:06 PM
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I'm copying a reply probably ignored in the Aural temp requirement of the PTG exams. Again, it doesn't matter if one has the best ears in the world or a $5000 ETD if the tuning isn't stable.

Originally Posted by Bosendorff
Originally Posted by Hakki
This is totally irrelevant.

What on earth does stability have to do with tuning aurally or with an ETD?


An ETD is a reference tool. One can tune a piano without or with an ETD and the strings can go out of tune after a few hours (heck a few forte blows on the keys).

Tuning stability has little to do with what you use as a reference (ears or ETD). It depends on how you use the hammer and move and place the strings and pins when you tune. You are giving the ETD way too much credit.

Re: Criticize My Temperament Recording [Re: SMHaley] #2299604
07/07/14 04:23 PM
07/07/14 04:23 PM
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Posts: 1,563
Canberra, ACT, Australia
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Chris Leslie Offline
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Originally Posted by SMHaley
Originally Posted by DoelKees

I am impressed by your ability to detect unclean unisons from what I thought to be single string intervals, as well as imperfections that are beyond what I can measure.

I'll be happy to measure beats on your M3/M6 progression if you'd care to post them, to prove your superiority. Including a sworn statement by a notary public that you actually tuned what you posted of course.

Kees


If you listen carefully to the "Hamburg Sequence" at 0:21 - 0:29 the tenor C below is quite obviously out of unison and not muted to a single string. I'm surprised your sophisticated equipment didn't catch that, but for some reason my aural tuning ears did. Apparently, despite all the talk, Mr. Hakki didn't catch what is usually the first annoyance of most pianists, or just didn't bother to continue beyond the temperament. Such a thing, is really quite pointless.

After all the input given in the PTG thread on tuning I'm surprised one would be so bold to submit such a thing and then convince us it was aurally tuned and give absolutely no evidence what so ever that it was. I remain as skeptical as always.


It is only a test note for the E3-E4 octave. It probably was next to the strut and was only muted on one side.

Last edited by Chris Leslie; 07/07/14 04:31 PM.

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Re: Criticize My Temperament Recording [Re: Hakki] #2299637
07/07/14 06:47 PM
07/07/14 06:47 PM
Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 878
Hong Kong
Weiyan Offline
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Originally Posted by Hakki
..........

Anyway it was worth the experience. Be it 99% rookie's luck, now I can better understand why aural tuners might have more satisfaction with their work. It is really a very great feeling to know that one has accomplished a difficult task.


Do you think aural tuners make simple task difficult, enjoy the over complicated process? As a tuner, I enjoy the process as well as the result. You haven't tune a piano, no matter aural or by ETD. How could you come to this conclusion? Here is a lot of comment regarding your aural tuning, that's sufficient for you to improve and take a second trial. If you just want to know if your tuning is OK, just play major chord progression, you can hear the unevenness. I suppose a pianist should have this minimum aural skill.


Working on:\

J.S.Bach Prelude in C Min: No. 2 from Six Preludes fur Anfanger auf dem
Am Abend No. 2 from Stimmungsbilder, Op. 88
60s Swing No. 1 from Swinging Rhythms
http://weiyanwo.wordpress.com
Re: Criticize My Temperament Recording [Re: Chris Leslie] #2299661
07/07/14 08:21 PM
07/07/14 08:21 PM
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Posts: 1,131
Seattle
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SMHaley Offline
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Originally Posted by Chris Leslie

It is only a test note for the E3-E4 octave. It probably was next to the strut and was only muted on one side.


Perhaps but I don't consider a reference or test note that isn't in tune to be all the useful,IMO. Since I tend to use a C-f temperament (scale permitting), it would be something I catch quickly. Muted or not it may suggest that for the recording provided it wasn't important or necessary to be in tune and casts a suspicious light.


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Re: Criticize My Temperament Recording [Re: Weiyan] #2299911
07/08/14 02:24 PM
07/08/14 02:24 PM
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Hakki Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Weiyan
Here is a lot of comment regarding your aural tuning, that's sufficient for you to improve and take a second trial.


I don't think I might improve over this tuning. It is obviously a beginner's luck situation. I tried the a3-a4 temperament too, which I find more difficult to tune.

That said, there is also the other side of the coin, ETD tuners might not find aural tuning as rewarding.

Re: Criticize My Temperament Recording [Re: Hakki] #2299999
07/08/14 07:24 PM
07/08/14 07:24 PM
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Seattle
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SMHaley Offline
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Originally Posted by Hakki
Originally Posted by Weiyan
Here is a lot of comment regarding your aural tuning, that's sufficient for you to improve and take a second trial.


I don't think I might improve over this tuning. It is obviously a beginner's luck situation. I tried the a3-a4 temperament too, which I find more difficult to tune.

That said, there is also the other side of the coin, ETD tuners might not find aural tuning as rewarding.


Hmmm... how unfortunate. Hakki do you not feel that you be lucky twice in a row? Since you admit that the pitch dropped after you returned from work who is going to put it back where it should be?


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Re: Criticize My Temperament Recording [Re: Hakki] #2300170
07/09/14 08:18 AM
07/09/14 08:18 AM
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Hong Kong
Weiyan Offline
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Originally Posted by Hakki
Originally Posted by Weiyan
Here is a lot of comment regarding your aural tuning, that's sufficient for you to improve and take a second trial.


I don't think I might improve over this tuning. It is obviously a beginner's luck situation. I tried the a3-a4 temperament too, which I find more difficult to tune.

That said, there is also the other side of the coin, ETD tuners might not find aural tuning as rewarding.


I am bicycle tuner. I ride bike to tune piano. Its ridiculous to label oneself by the tool used.


Working on:\

J.S.Bach Prelude in C Min: No. 2 from Six Preludes fur Anfanger auf dem
Am Abend No. 2 from Stimmungsbilder, Op. 88
60s Swing No. 1 from Swinging Rhythms
http://weiyanwo.wordpress.com
Re: Criticize My Temperament Recording [Re: Weiyan] #2300254
07/09/14 12:22 PM
07/09/14 12:22 PM
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Hakki Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Weiyan
I am bicycle tuner. I ride bike to tune piano. Its ridiculous to label oneself by the tool used.


Ridiculous or not. But it is the reality. There is a clear discrimination between ETD and aural tuners both here and on the PTG forum.

Re: Criticize My Temperament Recording [Re: Hakki] #2300341
07/09/14 03:43 PM
07/09/14 03:43 PM
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Montreal, Quebec, Canada
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Mark Cerisano Offline
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Tune A3A4 this way:

F3A3 < F3A4 (Proves a wide 4:2)
A3C4 > C4A4 (Proves a narrow 6:3)

Now the octave is a wide 4:2 and a narrow 6:3.

Big deal right? Who cares?

Here is the real test:

Tune your F3A3 = F3A4 pure 4:2 octave, and listen to A3A4. Listen to the entire harmonic content. Listen to the treble area for colour.

Then tweak down A3 so that A3A4 is within the 4:2/6:3 window.

Now re-listen to the A3A4 octave.

That's why I tune mid octaves within that window.

Note: if the window is really small, i.e. you can't hear F3A3<F3A4 and A3C4>C4A4, but only seem to be able to hear F3A3=F3A4 and A3C4=C4A4, that's ok. It just means that piano has a narrow 4:2/6:3 window, and you can feel confident tuning 4:2 octaves in the midrange.

Cool, eh?



Mark Cerisano, RPT, B.Sc.(Mech.Eng), Dip.Ed.(Music)
www.howtotunepianos.com
Re: Criticize My Temperament Recording [Re: Hakki] #2300407
07/09/14 07:10 PM
07/09/14 07:10 PM
Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 878
Hong Kong
Weiyan Offline
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Originally Posted by Hakki
Originally Posted by Weiyan
I am bicycle tuner. I ride bike to tune piano. Its ridiculous to label oneself by the tool used.


Ridiculous or not. But it is the reality. There is a clear discrimination between ETD and aural tuners both here and on the PTG forum.


Are you Steinway pianist? Yamaha? Kawai? Estonia? Chopin? Mozart?

A tuner should use any tool to make the result better and higher efficiency.


Working on:\

J.S.Bach Prelude in C Min: No. 2 from Six Preludes fur Anfanger auf dem
Am Abend No. 2 from Stimmungsbilder, Op. 88
60s Swing No. 1 from Swinging Rhythms
http://weiyanwo.wordpress.com
Re: Criticize My Temperament Recording [Re: Hakki] #2300498
07/09/14 10:41 PM
07/09/14 10:41 PM
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Hakki Offline OP
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You might think so. And you might be right according to yourself.
But if you have followed the recent threads about the aural part of the PTG exam, you will see that there are RPTs who say that you are wrong, and that a tuner MUST know how to setup a temperament aurally. I am just transferring that information. Otherwise I agree with you. OTOH, if I were a tuner, I would learn how to tune auraly regardless of whether I use an ETD or not in my daily work.

Re: Criticize My Temperament Recording [Re: Hakki] #2300543
07/10/14 12:42 AM
07/10/14 12:42 AM
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Weiyan Offline
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Agree what you said. Aural skill imorove qyality and efficiency even though using etd. Its generally agreed that etd can set temperament, but not so secure about low bass and high treble Aural octave stress skill seems more important than temperament

For exam have two basic purpose: guarantee minimum skill level and prestige. I had asked what's minumum skill for OK tuning, no one reply. The relevance of test is suspwctable.


Working on:\

J.S.Bach Prelude in C Min: No. 2 from Six Preludes fur Anfanger auf dem
Am Abend No. 2 from Stimmungsbilder, Op. 88
60s Swing No. 1 from Swinging Rhythms
http://weiyanwo.wordpress.com
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