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Re: Criticize My Temperament Recording [Re: Hakki] #2299598
07/07/14 05:06 PM
07/07/14 05:06 PM
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 876
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Bosendorff Offline
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I'm copying a reply probably ignored in the Aural temp requirement of the PTG exams. Again, it doesn't matter if one has the best ears in the world or a $5000 ETD if the tuning isn't stable.

Originally Posted by Bosendorff
Originally Posted by Hakki
This is totally irrelevant.

What on earth does stability have to do with tuning aurally or with an ETD?


An ETD is a reference tool. One can tune a piano without or with an ETD and the strings can go out of tune after a few hours (heck a few forte blows on the keys).

Tuning stability has little to do with what you use as a reference (ears or ETD). It depends on how you use the hammer and move and place the strings and pins when you tune. You are giving the ETD way too much credit.

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Re: Criticize My Temperament Recording [Re: SMHaley] #2299604
07/07/14 05:23 PM
07/07/14 05:23 PM
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 1,603
Canberra, ACT, Australia
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Chris Leslie Offline
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Chris Leslie  Offline
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Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 1,603
Canberra, ACT, Australia
Originally Posted by SMHaley
Originally Posted by DoelKees

I am impressed by your ability to detect unclean unisons from what I thought to be single string intervals, as well as imperfections that are beyond what I can measure.

I'll be happy to measure beats on your M3/M6 progression if you'd care to post them, to prove your superiority. Including a sworn statement by a notary public that you actually tuned what you posted of course.

Kees


If you listen carefully to the "Hamburg Sequence" at 0:21 - 0:29 the tenor C below is quite obviously out of unison and not muted to a single string. I'm surprised your sophisticated equipment didn't catch that, but for some reason my aural tuning ears did. Apparently, despite all the talk, Mr. Hakki didn't catch what is usually the first annoyance of most pianists, or just didn't bother to continue beyond the temperament. Such a thing, is really quite pointless.

After all the input given in the PTG thread on tuning I'm surprised one would be so bold to submit such a thing and then convince us it was aurally tuned and give absolutely no evidence what so ever that it was. I remain as skeptical as always.


It is only a test note for the E3-E4 octave. It probably was next to the strut and was only muted on one side.

Last edited by Chris Leslie; 07/07/14 05:31 PM.

Chris Leslie ARPT
Piano technician
http://www.chrisleslie.com.au
Re: Criticize My Temperament Recording [Re: Hakki] #2299637
07/07/14 07:47 PM
07/07/14 07:47 PM
Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 878
Hong Kong
Weiyan Offline
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Weiyan  Offline
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Hong Kong
Originally Posted by Hakki
..........

Anyway it was worth the experience. Be it 99% rookie's luck, now I can better understand why aural tuners might have more satisfaction with their work. It is really a very great feeling to know that one has accomplished a difficult task.


Do you think aural tuners make simple task difficult, enjoy the over complicated process? As a tuner, I enjoy the process as well as the result. You haven't tune a piano, no matter aural or by ETD. How could you come to this conclusion? Here is a lot of comment regarding your aural tuning, that's sufficient for you to improve and take a second trial. If you just want to know if your tuning is OK, just play major chord progression, you can hear the unevenness. I suppose a pianist should have this minimum aural skill.


Working on:\

J.S.Bach Prelude in C Min: No. 2 from Six Preludes fur Anfanger auf dem
Am Abend No. 2 from Stimmungsbilder, Op. 88
60s Swing No. 1 from Swinging Rhythms
http://weiyanwo.wordpress.com
Re: Criticize My Temperament Recording [Re: Chris Leslie] #2299661
07/07/14 09:21 PM
07/07/14 09:21 PM
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 1,131
Seattle
S
SMHaley Offline
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SMHaley  Offline
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Joined: May 2013
Posts: 1,131
Seattle
Originally Posted by Chris Leslie

It is only a test note for the E3-E4 octave. It probably was next to the strut and was only muted on one side.


Perhaps but I don't consider a reference or test note that isn't in tune to be all the useful,IMO. Since I tend to use a C-f temperament (scale permitting), it would be something I catch quickly. Muted or not it may suggest that for the recording provided it wasn't important or necessary to be in tune and casts a suspicious light.


PTG Associate
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Chief Instrument Technician, Director, Chancel Arts
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AA Music Arts 2001, BM Organ, Choral 2005


Baldwin F 1960 (146256)
Zuckermann Flemish Single
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Re: Criticize My Temperament Recording [Re: Weiyan] #2299911
07/08/14 03:24 PM
07/08/14 03:24 PM
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 3,863
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Hakki Online content OP
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Hakki  Online Content OP
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Originally Posted by Weiyan
Here is a lot of comment regarding your aural tuning, that's sufficient for you to improve and take a second trial.


I don't think I might improve over this tuning. It is obviously a beginner's luck situation. I tried the a3-a4 temperament too, which I find more difficult to tune.

That said, there is also the other side of the coin, ETD tuners might not find aural tuning as rewarding.

Re: Criticize My Temperament Recording [Re: Hakki] #2299999
07/08/14 08:24 PM
07/08/14 08:24 PM
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 1,131
Seattle
S
SMHaley Offline
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SMHaley  Offline
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Joined: May 2013
Posts: 1,131
Seattle
Originally Posted by Hakki
Originally Posted by Weiyan
Here is a lot of comment regarding your aural tuning, that's sufficient for you to improve and take a second trial.


I don't think I might improve over this tuning. It is obviously a beginner's luck situation. I tried the a3-a4 temperament too, which I find more difficult to tune.

That said, there is also the other side of the coin, ETD tuners might not find aural tuning as rewarding.


Hmmm... how unfortunate. Hakki do you not feel that you be lucky twice in a row? Since you admit that the pitch dropped after you returned from work who is going to put it back where it should be?


PTG Associate
AIO Regular Member
ASCAP
Pipe Organ Builder
Chief Instrument Technician, Director, Chancel Arts
Church Music Professional
AA Music Arts 2001, BM Organ, Choral 2005


Baldwin F 1960 (146256)
Zuckermann Flemish Single
Re: Criticize My Temperament Recording [Re: Hakki] #2300170
07/09/14 09:18 AM
07/09/14 09:18 AM
Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 878
Hong Kong
Weiyan Offline
500 Post Club Member
Weiyan  Offline
500 Post Club Member

Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 878
Hong Kong
Originally Posted by Hakki
Originally Posted by Weiyan
Here is a lot of comment regarding your aural tuning, that's sufficient for you to improve and take a second trial.


I don't think I might improve over this tuning. It is obviously a beginner's luck situation. I tried the a3-a4 temperament too, which I find more difficult to tune.

That said, there is also the other side of the coin, ETD tuners might not find aural tuning as rewarding.


I am bicycle tuner. I ride bike to tune piano. Its ridiculous to label oneself by the tool used.


Working on:\

J.S.Bach Prelude in C Min: No. 2 from Six Preludes fur Anfanger auf dem
Am Abend No. 2 from Stimmungsbilder, Op. 88
60s Swing No. 1 from Swinging Rhythms
http://weiyanwo.wordpress.com
Re: Criticize My Temperament Recording [Re: Weiyan] #2300254
07/09/14 01:22 PM
07/09/14 01:22 PM
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 3,863
H
Hakki Online content OP
3000 Post Club Member
Hakki  Online Content OP
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Joined: May 2001
Posts: 3,863
Originally Posted by Weiyan
I am bicycle tuner. I ride bike to tune piano. Its ridiculous to label oneself by the tool used.


Ridiculous or not. But it is the reality. There is a clear discrimination between ETD and aural tuners both here and on the PTG forum.

Re: Criticize My Temperament Recording [Re: Hakki] #2300341
07/09/14 04:43 PM
07/09/14 04:43 PM
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 3,087
Montreal, Quebec, Canada
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Mark Cerisano Offline
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Mark Cerisano  Offline
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Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 3,087
Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Tune A3A4 this way:

F3A3 < F3A4 (Proves a wide 4:2)
A3C4 > C4A4 (Proves a narrow 6:3)

Now the octave is a wide 4:2 and a narrow 6:3.

Big deal right? Who cares?

Here is the real test:

Tune your F3A3 = F3A4 pure 4:2 octave, and listen to A3A4. Listen to the entire harmonic content. Listen to the treble area for colour.

Then tweak down A3 so that A3A4 is within the 4:2/6:3 window.

Now re-listen to the A3A4 octave.

That's why I tune mid octaves within that window.

Note: if the window is really small, i.e. you can't hear F3A3<F3A4 and A3C4>C4A4, but only seem to be able to hear F3A3=F3A4 and A3C4=C4A4, that's ok. It just means that piano has a narrow 4:2/6:3 window, and you can feel confident tuning 4:2 octaves in the midrange.

Cool, eh?



Mark Cerisano, RPT, B.Sc.(Mech.Eng), Dip.Ed.(Music)
www.howtotunepianos.com
Re: Criticize My Temperament Recording [Re: Hakki] #2300407
07/09/14 08:10 PM
07/09/14 08:10 PM
Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 878
Hong Kong
Weiyan Offline
500 Post Club Member
Weiyan  Offline
500 Post Club Member

Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 878
Hong Kong
Originally Posted by Hakki
Originally Posted by Weiyan
I am bicycle tuner. I ride bike to tune piano. Its ridiculous to label oneself by the tool used.


Ridiculous or not. But it is the reality. There is a clear discrimination between ETD and aural tuners both here and on the PTG forum.


Are you Steinway pianist? Yamaha? Kawai? Estonia? Chopin? Mozart?

A tuner should use any tool to make the result better and higher efficiency.


Working on:\

J.S.Bach Prelude in C Min: No. 2 from Six Preludes fur Anfanger auf dem
Am Abend No. 2 from Stimmungsbilder, Op. 88
60s Swing No. 1 from Swinging Rhythms
http://weiyanwo.wordpress.com
Re: Criticize My Temperament Recording [Re: Hakki] #2300498
07/09/14 11:41 PM
07/09/14 11:41 PM
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 3,863
H
Hakki Online content OP
3000 Post Club Member
Hakki  Online Content OP
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Joined: May 2001
Posts: 3,863
You might think so. And you might be right according to yourself.
But if you have followed the recent threads about the aural part of the PTG exam, you will see that there are RPTs who say that you are wrong, and that a tuner MUST know how to setup a temperament aurally. I am just transferring that information. Otherwise I agree with you. OTOH, if I were a tuner, I would learn how to tune auraly regardless of whether I use an ETD or not in my daily work.

Re: Criticize My Temperament Recording [Re: Hakki] #2300543
07/10/14 01:42 AM
07/10/14 01:42 AM
Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 878
Hong Kong
Weiyan Offline
500 Post Club Member
Weiyan  Offline
500 Post Club Member

Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 878
Hong Kong
Agree what you said. Aural skill imorove qyality and efficiency even though using etd. Its generally agreed that etd can set temperament, but not so secure about low bass and high treble Aural octave stress skill seems more important than temperament

For exam have two basic purpose: guarantee minimum skill level and prestige. I had asked what's minumum skill for OK tuning, no one reply. The relevance of test is suspwctable.


Working on:\

J.S.Bach Prelude in C Min: No. 2 from Six Preludes fur Anfanger auf dem
Am Abend No. 2 from Stimmungsbilder, Op. 88
60s Swing No. 1 from Swinging Rhythms
http://weiyanwo.wordpress.com
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