Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2.7 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
(ad)
Best of Piano Buyer
 Best of Piano Buyer
(ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
Find a Professional
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers

Advertise on Piano World

(ad)
Accu-Tuner
Sanderson Accu-Tuner
Who's Online Now
78 registered members (7uturu, Beakybird, Animisha, Cheshire Chris, 21 invisible), 1,131 guests, and 4 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Quick Links to Useful Piano & Music Resources
Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano & Music Accessories
*Live Piano Venues
*Music School Listings
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Directory/Site Map
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords & Scales
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 1 of 2 1 2
How difficult is Chopin op 25 no2? #2296473
06/29/14 09:17 AM
06/29/14 09:17 AM
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 159
Mexico
rov Offline OP
Full Member
rov  Offline OP
Full Member

Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 159
Mexico
Hi, how difficult is this etude played at the suggested tempo of a half note=112 bpm?

Last edited by rov; 06/29/14 09:19 AM.

Piamo
Piano & Music Gifts & Accessories (570)
Piano accessories and music gift items
Re: How difficult is Chopin op 25 no2? [Re: rov] #2296480
06/29/14 09:45 AM
06/29/14 09:45 AM
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 26
V
Veronika333 Offline
Full Member
Veronika333  Offline
Full Member
V

Joined: May 2014
Posts: 26
It's one of easier etudes, but not easy.
Don't think about speed so much, play it how you feel comfortable. Nobody in audience will be measuring your tempo.
I was playing it for audition and it went well, try to make it nicest not fastest. Many people don't play Chopin etudes at prescribed speed, because it is impossible for them..
Good luck smile

Re: How difficult is Chopin op 25 no2? [Re: rov] #2296495
06/29/14 10:36 AM
06/29/14 10:36 AM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 2,654
San Jose, CA
J
jeffreyjones Offline
2000 Post Club Member
jeffreyjones  Offline
2000 Post Club Member
J

Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 2,654
San Jose, CA
It's the easiest of the 24, similar difficulty to the Trois Nouvelles Etudes, but it is marked presto so that is why the writing is a little leaner. Light fingers and good shaping in the left hand.

Re: How difficult is Chopin op 25 no2? [Re: Veronika333] #2296506
06/29/14 11:06 AM
06/29/14 11:06 AM
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 22,341
New York
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Mark_C  Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 22,341
New York
No, not really.

Perhaps see this thread.
(edit: Actually I see that Veronika did say it's not easy.) smile

If it's that easy, how come hardly anyone meets the main challenge? Unless you don't think that's part of the piece (and I guess Jeffrey doesn't, since he mentioned a couple of things but not that). If you agree it is, then it's very, very hard -- at any speed.

If we're talking only about "playing the notes," well in that case....

Last edited by Mark_C; 06/29/14 11:58 AM.
Re: How difficult is Chopin op 25 no2? [Re: Mark_C] #2296614
06/29/14 03:00 PM
06/29/14 03:00 PM
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 26
V
Veronika333 Offline
Full Member
Veronika333  Offline
Full Member
V

Joined: May 2014
Posts: 26
I don't think it's easy, I spend so much time on this etude before auditions, but in comparison with other Chopin etudes, it was easier and I did feel quite comfortable performing it. But I agree with you, it's hard, both musically and technically...

Re: How difficult is Chopin op 25 no2? [Re: rov] #2296632
06/29/14 03:46 PM
06/29/14 03:46 PM
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 452
F
Francisco Scalco Offline
Full Member
Francisco Scalco  Offline
Full Member
F

Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 452
Veronika, do you play the triplets as written?

Re: How difficult is Chopin op 25 no2? [Re: Mark_C] #2296716
06/29/14 08:24 PM
06/29/14 08:24 PM
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 1,485
Albany, NY, USA
Ridicolosamente Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Ridicolosamente  Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 1,485
Albany, NY, USA
Originally Posted by Mark_C
No, not really.

Perhaps see this thread....
I am laughing so hard.


Currently working on:
-Poulenc Trois pi├Ęces
-Liszt Harmonies du Soir
-Bach/Brahms Chaconne for Left Hand
Re: How difficult is Chopin op 25 no2? [Re: Mark_C] #2296803
06/30/14 01:48 AM
06/30/14 01:48 AM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 2,654
San Jose, CA
J
jeffreyjones Offline
2000 Post Club Member
jeffreyjones  Offline
2000 Post Club Member
J

Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 2,654
San Jose, CA
Originally Posted by Mark_C
No, not really.

Perhaps see this thread.
(edit: Actually I see that Veronika did say it's not easy.) smile

If it's that easy, how come hardly anyone meets the main challenge? Unless you don't think that's part of the piece (and I guess Jeffrey doesn't, since he mentioned a couple of things but not that). If you agree it is, then it's very, very hard -- at any speed.

If we're talking only about "playing the notes," well in that case....


The triplet groupings give the piece a different character than what you get from traditional interpretations. A little smoother and more pleading instead of ticklish. I don't find it more difficult to play it that way, but it hardly even sounds like the same piece.

Re: How difficult is Chopin op 25 no2? [Re: jeffreyjones] #2296811
06/30/14 02:16 AM
06/30/14 02:16 AM
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 22,341
New York
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Mark_C  Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 22,341
New York
Originally Posted by jeffreyjones
....I don't find it more difficult to play it that way....

Great for you! For most people, it seems basically impossible.

BTW, I wonder if we'd really hear that you're doing it that way. That's the usual problem when people try to do it.

Re: How difficult is Chopin op 25 no2? [Re: Francisco Scalco] #2296987
06/30/14 02:32 PM
06/30/14 02:32 PM
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,701
RonaldSteinway Offline
1000 Post Club Member
RonaldSteinway  Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,701
Originally Posted by Francisco Scalco
Veronika, do you play the triplets as written?


If we put the a little bit of accent on the 1st note, and do not put any accent in any other notes, we will get what you want.

To play this etude fast is not easy. Most people can do well up to the 90, over 100, the problem will start appearing.

Re: How difficult is Chopin op 25 no2? [Re: RonaldSteinway] #2297078
06/30/14 08:08 PM
06/30/14 08:08 PM
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 452
F
Francisco Scalco Offline
Full Member
Francisco Scalco  Offline
Full Member
F

Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 452
Originally Posted by RonaldSteinway
Originally Posted by Francisco Scalco
Veronika, do you play the triplets as written?


If we put the a little bit of accent on the 1st note, and do not put any accent in any other notes, we will get what you want.

To play this etude fast is not easy. Most people can do well up to the 90, over 100, the problem will start appearing.


You do realize this is a rhythmic issue, right? It's not just accenting the note, but really playing it as a triplet. There's a 2-3 going on there, I think. I haven't played it in a long time, but the problem is coordinating the two hands to play that polyrhythm. Normally this isn't an issue, but in this etude it sort of pulls you to a 2-4 rhythm. It's actually VERY hard to play this as written, as Mark_C already pointed out.

Re: How difficult is Chopin op 25 no2? [Re: Francisco Scalco] #2297211
07/01/14 07:31 AM
07/01/14 07:31 AM
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,701
RonaldSteinway Offline
1000 Post Club Member
RonaldSteinway  Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,701
Originally Posted by Francisco Scalco
Originally Posted by RonaldSteinway
Originally Posted by Francisco Scalco
Veronika, do you play the triplets as written?


If we put the a little bit of accent on the 1st note, and do not put any accent in any other notes, we will get what you want.

To play this etude fast is not easy. Most people can do well up to the 90, over 100, the problem will start appearing.


You do realize this is a rhythmic issue, right? It's not just accenting the note, but really playing it as a triplet. There's a 2-3 going on there, I think. I haven't played it in a long time, but the problem is coordinating the two hands to play that polyrhythm. Normally this isn't an issue, but in this etude it sort of pulls you to a 2-4 rhythm. It's actually VERY hard to play this as written, as Mark_C already pointed out.


It is not a polyrhythm. Because there are 12 notes on the right hand and 6 on the left hand, for one left hand you play two right hand. It is not like 3 LH and 4 RH.
The problem is that many people add accent incorrectly so that it does not sound like triplets. If you have this problem, just accented on the first and the seventh note. The faster you play, the less obvious that 2-4 rhythm problem.

Re: How difficult is Chopin op 25 no2? [Re: RonaldSteinway] #2297260
07/01/14 10:20 AM
07/01/14 10:20 AM
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 22,291
Victoria, BC
BruceD Offline
Gold Subscriber
BruceD  Offline
Gold Subscriber

Joined: May 2001
Posts: 22,291
Victoria, BC
Originally Posted by RonaldSteinway
[...] just accented on the first and the seventh note. [...]


That does not solve the problem. Within each beat (counting in two, because it's in cut time) there are six notes in the right against three in the left. The problem comes when the third note in the right hand (the last note of the first triplet) coincides with the second note of the left. Some are inclined to accent that third right-hand note because it is played with the left hand. They then lose the sense of right-hand triplets.

For practice purposes, one must accent the first, fourth, seventh, and tenth notes in the right hand, not just the first and seventh. If you accent just the first and seventh then you run the risk of playing the first six notes as three groups of two notes (lining up with the left hand) rather than two groups of three notes.

That's the whole point that Marc_C was making.

Eventually, of course, it is the first and seventh notes that will be (slightly) accented, but it must not be at the risk of turning the group of six notes into three groups of two.

Regards,


BruceD
- - - - -
Estonia 190
Re: How difficult is Chopin op 25 no2? [Re: RonaldSteinway] #2297335
07/01/14 01:31 PM
07/01/14 01:31 PM
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 22,341
New York
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Mark_C  Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 22,341
New York
Originally Posted by RonaldSteinway
It is not a polyrhythm.

It is.
I can't tell from your post if it's that you have a different concept of the term or that you don't really get what's going on there.

Although, this part makes it seem like you do know it:

Quote
The problem is that many people add accent incorrectly so that it does not sound like triplets....

But it's not enough just to avoid "incorrect accents." If you just avoid incorrect accents, the piece won't sound how it's written; it'll sound essentially as though you're doing incorrect accents (in the right hand), because of what's going on in the left hand -- unless you take very special care of what you do with the left hand too.

Last edited by Mark_C; 07/02/14 12:57 AM.
Re: How difficult is Chopin op 25 no2? [Re: rov] #2297354
07/01/14 02:13 PM
07/01/14 02:13 PM
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 216
V
Verbum mirabilis Offline
Full Member
Verbum mirabilis  Offline
Full Member
V

Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 216
Hmmm... to me playing the triplets as triplets was immediately obvious. I've had issues with keeping the hands in sync, though. One of the practise methods my teacher introduced me to was playing the triplets as groups of two. One really "just" has to feel (and listen to!) the two lines (the LH and the RH) and treat them as independent melodies.


Working on

Chopin: op. 25 no. 11
Haydn: Sonata in in Eb Hob XVI/52
Schumann: Piano concerto 1st movement
Rachmaninoff: op. 39 no. 8

Re: How difficult is Chopin op 25 no2? [Re: Verbum mirabilis] #2297360
07/01/14 02:33 PM
07/01/14 02:33 PM
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 452
F
Francisco Scalco Offline
Full Member
Francisco Scalco  Offline
Full Member
F

Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 452
Originally Posted by Verbum mirabilis
One really "just" has to feel (and listen to!) the two lines (the LH and the RH) and treat them as independent melodies.


Yes... "Just" that.

By the way, does anyone have any performance to post where we can actually hear the triplets?

Re: How difficult is Chopin op 25 no2? [Re: rov] #2297411
07/01/14 05:51 PM
07/01/14 05:51 PM
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,701
RonaldSteinway Offline
1000 Post Club Member
RonaldSteinway  Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,701
Why I said it is not polyrhythm, because the LH and RH notes do not interlace each other (timing wise). Fantasy Impromptu is polyrhythm, Debussy's Arabesque No. 1 is polyrhythm. Chopin Etude Op. 25 No. 2 is not.

The right hand is triplet (we agree on this).
The left hand also triplet but double the duration. Therefore, one note of the left hand will be matched with two notes on the right hand. The notes do not interlace each other.


I agree with BruceD, most of the time people play the 3rd, 5th, 9th and 11th notes with accent (louder).
If we keep everything the same, except the 1st and the 7th, the triplet feeling/sound will appear automatically.



Last edited by RonaldSteinway; 07/01/14 08:27 PM.
Re: How difficult is Chopin op 25 no2? [Re: rov] #2297416
07/01/14 06:03 PM
07/01/14 06:03 PM
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 3,993
Gaithersburg, MD (Washington D...
K
Keith D Kerman Online content
3000 Post Club Member
Keith D Kerman  Online Content
3000 Post Club Member
K

Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 3,993
Gaithersburg, MD (Washington D...
There is a speed at which I can no longer hear or express the feeling of triplets in the RH. Same goes for when I am listening to someone else play this. That point is far below the speed at which this etude needs to be played.
Some of the figures better lend themselves to a triplet feel, but even then, I wonder if I would hear or feel that at speed if I didn't know how it was written and agonize over trying to project a triplet feel in the RH at speed.

With all that, I hear people all the time saying this etude is not that hard, and like so many of the other Chopin Etudes, it is not hard to play the notes up to about 75% speed. Getting it to a real presto with absolute control is incredibly difficult.


Keith D Kerman
PianoCraft
Rebuilding & Sales - vintage and used Steinway, Mason & Hamlin
New Steingraeber, Estonia, Baldwin
www.pianocraft.net
check out http://sitkadoc.com/
www.twitter.com/pianocraft https://www.youtube.com/user/pianocraftchannel

keith@pianocraft.net 888-840-5460
Re: How difficult is Chopin op 25 no2? [Re: rov] #2297417
07/01/14 06:06 PM
07/01/14 06:06 PM
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,701
RonaldSteinway Offline
1000 Post Club Member
RonaldSteinway  Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,701
I do not know how to add picture to show my thought...Therefore, I will use word.

LH has 6 notes, each LH equal to 2 notes on the RH. The duration of LH note=2x of the RH.
The first two notes of right hand will not be a problem, but the 3rd note is usually the problem, because it will be matched with the second note of the LH. We will have a tendency to make louder. Because of this, we ruin the triplet feeling of the piece. This will happen again at the 5th, 9th and the 11th notes. If we do not play those notes louder, we will be able to keep the triplet feeling.

Hope this makes sense.

Re: How difficult is Chopin op 25 no2? [Re: Keith D Kerman] #2297419
07/01/14 06:09 PM
07/01/14 06:09 PM
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,701
RonaldSteinway Offline
1000 Post Club Member
RonaldSteinway  Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,701
Originally Posted by Keith D Kerman
There is a speed at which I can no longer hear or express the feeling of triplets in the RH. Same goes for when I am listening to someone else play this. That point is far below the speed at which this etude needs to be played.
Some of the figures better lend themselves to a triplet feel, but even then, I wonder if I would hear or feel that at speed if I didn't know how it was written and agonize over trying to project a triplet feel in the RH at speed.

With all that, I hear people all the time saying this etude is not that hard, and like so many of the other Chopin Etudes, it is not hard to play the notes up to about 75% speed. Getting it to a real presto with absolute control is incredibly difficult.


I agree with what you say. At the beg, I had that triplet problem, but when we play over 90 beat, that problem will disappear. My teacher who said this...that when I play fast, he does not hear the triplet problem.

I also agree with 75% speed is not difficult, but over 75% is different story.

Page 1 of 2 1 2

Moderated by  Brendan, Kreisler 

Shop Our Online Store!
Shop Our Store Online
Shop PianoSupplies.com

Did you know Piano World has an online store, and that it's loaded with goodies pianists and music lovers want?
Check it out and place your order.

Special Purchase!
Keyboard and Roses Piano Bench Cushion Keyboard & Roses 14"x30" piano bench cushions Regularly sold for $79 to $100, now only $39. (while supplies last)

(ad)
Pianoteq
PianoTeq Bechstein
(ad)
Faust Harrison Pianos
Faust Harrison 100+ Steinways
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Piano marvel vs playground sessions?
by chongjasmine. 03/26/19 05:50 AM
Lifting the CA98
by iLogic. 03/26/19 02:58 AM
How much is this piano worth
by humble_pianist. 03/25/19 05:49 PM
What's Hot!!
PIANO TEACHERS Please read this!
-------------------
European Tour for Piano Lovers
JOIN US FOR THE TOUR!
--------------------
Posting Pictures on the Forums
-------------------
Forums RULES & HELP
-------------------
ADVERTISE on Piano World
Forum Statistics
Forums41
Topics191,131
Posts2,810,925
Members92,879
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
Please Support Our Advertisers
Faust Harrison 100+ Steinways

Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver

Sweetwater

 Best of Piano Buyer

PianoTeq Bechstein
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers


 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter |


copyright 1997 - 2019 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.2