Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2.5 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!


SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
(ad)
Virtual Sheet Music
Download Sheet Music Instantly
Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads
Sheet Music...
(ad)
Accu-Tuner
Sanderson Accu-Tuner
(125ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad)
Modern Piano Moving
Modern Piano Moving
(ad)
Piano Buyer Guide
Piano Buyer Spring 2017
(ad)
Lindeblad Piano
Lindeblad Piano Restorations and sales
Who's Online Now
147 registered members (aliao, anotherscott, ando, accordeur, ajames, Almaviva, 34 invisible), 1,649 guests, and 10 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Quick Links to Useful Piano & Music Resources
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers

Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano & Music Accessories
*Live Piano Venues
*Music School Listings
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Directory/Site Map
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords & Scales
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
#2295342 - 06/26/14 02:10 PM Bach invention no. 13 fingering  
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 51
JanVan Offline
Full Member
JanVan  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 51
Hello,

I have looked at editions by Willard Palmer (Alfred), Griepenkerl (Peters), and also Busoni but the fingering suggestions are very sparse and I am really left in the dark as to what fingering to use for the many broken chord figurations.

I am considering buying the Henle edition with fingering but would like to know how abundant (and how good) their fingering suggestions are compared to the editions I mentioned above.

Which editions of the Bach inventions do you prefer and do you also find the invention in A minor much more difficult than the other ones?

Last edited by JanVan; 06/26/14 02:43 PM.
(ad)
Piano & Music Accessories
piano accessories music gifts tuning and moving equipment
#2295359 - 06/26/14 02:53 PM Re: Bach invention no. 13 fingering [Re: JanVan]  
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 29
MysteryMusic Offline
Full Member
MysteryMusic  Offline
Full Member

Joined: May 2014
Posts: 29
North Carolina
I am working on this invention now as well, and I have the Wiener Urtext edition. The fingerings in that edition for this invention are bizarre in places and make no sense to my hands. I finally had to sit down and try a bunch of fingering progressions as well as discuss it with my teacher to settle on something that works for my hands.

After getting the fingering down, I am not finding it more difficult than the other two-voice inventions that I have learned...


Walter W190
#2295375 - 06/26/14 03:30 PM Re: Bach invention no. 13 fingering [Re: JanVan]  
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 3,990
ShiroKuro Offline
3000 Post Club Member
ShiroKuro  Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 3,990
not in Japan anymore
JanVan, it's been a long time since I worked on Inventions, but at the time, I used the Henle edition on the recommendation of my teacher. I also have the Busoni one, but as I recall, I never used it and relied completely on the Henle. However, any fingering issues I discussed with my teacher at the time, so I don't really remember whether I found Henle lacking in terms of fingering guidance.

I take it you're not working with a teacher? If you are, of course ask him/her. But if you're working on your own (and can't or don't want to get a teacher) I would recommend the following:

1) get the Henle edition, it's well regarded.
2) compare fingering in Henle, Palmer and Busoni (by compare I mean of course try them out at the keyboard)
3) if you can't settle on a fingering you're comfortable with, take photos of specific measures, post them here and ask others which fingering they use or would recommend.

Also, you might do a web search for "piano fingering" or similar terms and see if you can find some advice and general guidelines, that might help you as well. Fingering is a huge issue, I really benefited from working with my teacher and getting both advice on fingering for specific pieces and general ideas. I'm much better at choosing fingering on my own these days, but I still bring fingering-related questions to my teacher, so it really is one of the big factors of piano playing.

Good luck!!


Started piano June 1999. My recordings at Box.Net:
https://app.box.com/s/j4rgyhn72uvluemg1m6u

[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
#2295568 - 06/26/14 11:06 PM Re: Bach invention no. 13 fingering [Re: JanVan]  
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 338
zillybug Offline
Full Member
zillybug  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 338
upstate NY
Hi
I did this invention last year. I have the Henle Urtext edition. The urtext edition has very little fingering written in. I worked with my teacher to figure out the fingering that worked best for me and then wrote almost every finger in the score in the beginning. With Bach you really have to be consistent with your fingering. I did find that invention harder than the ones I did previously (one and eight) and number 14 that I am working on now. god luck with it. I do like the sound of it.
Judy


[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]
(ad ) MusicNotes.com
sheet music search
#2295577 - 06/26/14 11:30 PM Re: Bach invention no. 13 fingering [Re: JanVan]  
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 15,677
Morodiene Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Morodiene  Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 15,677
Boynton Beach, FL
Baroque keyboard music in general is awkward to play. That is due to the highly contrapuntal nature of the style. This results in fingering that may not make a lot of sense for that particular note or set of notes, but it sets you up for what is to come. There are times when there's very few other options, and even a few when there's only one way to do it.

Which passages are troubling you? If you can post pictures of those measures and the fingering that you are using that isn't working, we can offer alternatives. In the end, it's totally up to you as to what works best.


private piano/voice teacher FT

[Linked Image][Linked Image][Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
#2295923 - 06/27/14 07:47 PM Re: Bach invention no. 13 fingering [Re: JanVan]  
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 362
stumbler Offline
Full Member
stumbler  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 362
Toronto
I have two editions of the two part inventions.

1. old beat up Edito Musica Budapest
- I haven't used it in a long time, but I remember disliking the fingering choices.

2. Wilhelm Hanson edition (Edwin Fischer)
- I used this recently (a year ago) for Inv 13
- In some cases I initially used fingering different from that suggested, but changed back to the suggested ones in several cases as on reflection the suggested fingerings seemed to relect deeper understanding of phrasing.
- One drawback of this edition is that copious interpretive footnotes yield awkward page breaks in some cases (though Inv 13 is fine).

As to difficulty, it is certainly more difficult than Inv 1, learning Inv 13 required more thought about hand position. Some of the other inventions seem more difficult that 13 and I so far have avoided trying to master them.



Roland RD-700NX

[Linked Image]
#2296058 - 06/28/14 05:06 AM Re: Bach invention no. 13 fingering [Re: JanVan]  
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 51
JanVan Offline
Full Member
JanVan  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 51
Thank you for sharing your thoughts.

My first question is about the opening motif in bar 1 (RH and LH) and bar 6 (LH):

[Linked Image]

The fingering with no background is what most editions agree on while the fingerings with a colored background are where there is divergence.

I have tried out the different suggestions at the piano and found that each one has their own merits what makes it all the more difficult to commit to one or another.

What I am looking for is a fingering solution that allows fast play while at the same time minimizing the build-up of tension.

I would love to know which fingering you prefer (and why) for these different passages.

To avoid any confusion, please answer the following questions by indicating the background color of your preferred fingering or by indicating your own fingering solution (e.g. 1-2-3-4-5).

1. Bar 1, RH (blue, green or other)?
2. Bar 1, LH (blue, green or other)?
3. Bar 6, LH (blue, green, yellow or other)?

I hope this thread may be of interest to all those working on this very beautiful and popular invention.

#2296062 - 06/28/14 05:42 AM Re: Bach invention no. 13 fingering [Re: JanVan]  
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 2,968
outo Offline
2000 Post Club Member
outo  Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 2,968
Finland
I still remember this piece as one of the most unpleasant I have ever worked with. Bach in general does not suit my hands at all. One reason is the frequent 1-2 streches in the right hand. My right thumb does not extend normally, so it gets sore from practicing pieces like this. I also have little strech between my 4-5. I only have a very long hypermobile 3rd finger...

But this is what we came up with, yet I am not sure it was the best option...I haven't returned to the piece for about a year now.

Measure 1: RH 1354135 45 25
LH 51 3 2531 2521

Measure 6 LH 35 3121 5212 1521

So as you see there are differences extending the options you gave. One needs to look at the whole phrase usually in such music to make it work.

Last edited by outo; 06/28/14 05:46 AM.
#2296152 - 06/28/14 12:44 PM Re: Bach invention no. 13 fingering [Re: JanVan]  
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 1,590
jdw Offline
1000 Post Club Member
jdw  Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 1,590
Philadelphia, PA
I loved learning this piece. It's not easy, though!

Different things work for different hands, but for me:
Bar 1 RH, blue
Bar 1 LH, blue
Bar 6 LH, yellow


1989 Baldwin R
Currently working on:
Haydn, Sonata Hob. XVI: 19
Chopin, Waltz in E minor (op. posth.)
Schubert, Op. 90 no. 2
#2296387 - 06/29/14 12:48 AM Re: Bach invention no. 13 fingering [Re: JanVan]  
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 3,156
hreichgott Offline
3000 Post Club Member
hreichgott  Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 3,156
western MA, USA
Here's what I think the different fingerings are getting at.

Bar 1 RH:
GREEN: allows hand to close more at the top of the phrase, enabling more freedom of the arm which makes it easier to shape the melody. Disadvantage: have to be careful to avoid unwanted thumb accent on the G#.
BLUE: maintains hand in the E-E octave position and uses the 4 on the C which is really familiar and easy if you play a lot of 4-note blocked chord exercises. Allows 2 on G#. Disadvantage: less freedom of arm, and 4-5 on C-E might be too stretchy for small hands or for people who don't play a lot of those exercises.

Bar 1 LH:
Just a choice of which inconvenience you want to avoid more: switching from 2 on A to 3 on A with only a 16th note in between, or switching from 2 on A to 2 on B with only a 16th note in between.
For what it's worth, I prefer this because it makes it easier for me to show where the theme begins in the left hand: from the beginning of the measure, 5-1-2-1-5-3-1-2-5-2-1.

Bar 6 LH:
BLUE: Makes crossing over the thumb easy. Might make it difficult to show that the phrase begins on the G.
GREEN: Makes phrasing easier (at least it does for me), replaces crossing-over with a long reach (10th). So if you do have a tendency to become tense to begin with, then maybe don't use this one.
YELLOW: This avoids large reaches altogether, and is the same as the blue fingering in measure 1 on the same melodic idea, but creates a lot of extra work for fingers 1 and 2 because finger 3 isn't used at all.

Last edited by hreichgott; 06/29/14 12:50 AM.

Heather W. Reichgott, piano http://heatherwreichgott.blogspot.com

Working on:
Beethoven, Diabelli Variations
Barber, Souvenirs
Mozart, Magic Flute (piano/celesta part)

I love Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven and new music

Moderated by  BB Player, casinitaly 

Piano Acc. & Gift Items in
Piano World's Online Store
In PianoSupplies.com ,(a division of Piano World) our online store for piano and music gifts and accessories, party goods, tuning equipment, piano moving equipment, benches, lamps Caster Cups and more.


Free Shipping on Jansen Artist Piano Benches
ad
Pierce Piano Atlas


(ad)
Pianoteq
Grotrian Concert
Royal
for Pianoteq out now
(ad)
A. Geyer Pianos
A. Geyer Pianos
What's Hot!!
Why Do You Play The Piano?
-------------------
Posting Pictures on the Forums
-------------------
Forums RULES & HELP
-------------------
ADVERTISE on Piano World
-------------------
Piano Classified Ads
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Casio GP 300vs400vs500
by Nordomus. 05/22/17 01:54 PM
Adding sounds to a church organ through midi
by Bellyman. 05/22/17 12:18 PM
thorough technician didn't comment on sound
by pmarc. 05/22/17 11:33 AM
Happy Buy A Musical Instrument Day
by Duke of Dunning. 05/22/17 11:17 AM
Greatest few minutes in music...your choice(s)
by pianoloverus. 05/22/17 10:42 AM
(ad)
Sheet Music Plus
Sheet Music Plus Featured Sale
Forum Statistics
Forums44
Topics179,814
Posts2,628,712
Members87,835
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
Report Problems With New Forums
Report Problems with New Forums Here!
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter |


copyright 1997 - 2017 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.0