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+1

Maybe another thread to be closed. It seems a shame when it could be so interesting.

I wonder how many newcomers are put off by this kind of thing.

I am not a moderator, and so not in a position to be making this statement -- but I will make it anyway.

Michaelha, your relentless tirade against the Ritmuller specifically, and Chinese pianos in general, is getting exteremely tiring. Please stop it. I have owned a Rit GH170 for a couple of years. Its a lovely piano. If they were not to your taste -- that's perfectly understandable. Its perfectly fine to say that you did not think much of them. But stating them like an absolute truth at every opportunity, and in a way that's derogatory to people or dealers who like them -- that's tiring, and not necessarily providing useful information to the people looking for information.

Apologies everyone, seriously. I'll ignore master88er and hopefully he'll ignore me.

rllinkt, sorry for offending you and the piano you own. I'll use more diplomatic language but at the same time I think novice shoppers who come here looking for others' opinions are better served if we tell them what we think whether it's good, bad, ugly...

Either way, I'll turn it down so this thread doesn't get locked

Thank you!

After hearing a youtube clip on each, I would perhaps go for the Yamaha, it seems very balanced, and refined to me.
You don't need a sostenuto pedal to play classical by the way.

Could you explain your reasoning on this?

Do you suggest an 8 year old would be in trouble for having no sostenuto pedal?

Well, she won't be 8 forever. If a student continues with classical piano, it will be needed.

You are a connoisseur of course, yet most classical players will never use it.

Sure we aren't mixing up the sostenuto and the sustain pedal? Otherwise most uprights would be useless because they typically don't have a sostenuto pedal

Currently I would probably go for the Essex, since the sound is perhaps more large and pleasant.
You can actually recognise the Steinway signature.

Wim - Those are grands.

Just to see if I understand correctly:
It's missing this middle pedal right?

So it has a sustain/damper pedal and a soft pedal?

According to the info provided by Rich Galassini, yes (sort of).

The middle pedal on an upright is designed to do a number of different things, like a "practice pedal" which lowers a felt strip between the hammers and the strings, or a "bass sustain" which acts like a damper pedal for the bass section only. I am sure there are other specific uses available from various manufacturers in different eras.

A few of the very high-end builders offer a true sostenuto on a vertical. Very expensive pianos, to say the least.

What I'm not sure is if the piano Rich referenced, has two or three pedals. It may be that there are three pedals, but the middle pedal does not function as a true "sostenuto."

A sostenuto pedal is not all that important. I would love it if more concert artists used it--for artistic reasons--but on the typical american concert grand it is so unreliable, that most never even consider it as an option...unless they have to use it, which is compositely extremely rare.

Regardless of the girl's current age, she could go on to the finest music schools in the world and finish a doctorate in piano performance without ever touching the sostenuto pedal once. That is how important the sostenuto pedal is.

I, however, use it all the time--as a tuner--but that is a completely different issue altogether.

I'm sorry, but a pianist who gets to the level of a DMA in piano performance wouldn't have gotten there without extensive study of Ravel and Debussy. If one is taught correctly from the beginning, the use of the sostenuto will be employed throughout the literature.

Ya gotta start somewhere.

An extensive study of Ravel and Debussy does not require the use of the sostenuto pedal, neither does a DMA in piano performance.

Again: I think it should be used, and I have tried to encourage concert pianists to use it almost ever chance I get (i.e., I see sooooo many extended uses for it), but übermajority of pianists simply do not want anything to do with that pedal. It is unreliable in concert, especially if the piano is of american design.

I just can't accept these grand sweeping pronouncements which have no basis in fact.

You disagree, you've stated your opinion, with no fact or experiences to support your statements, and you've already started to dismiss my experiences. I can, and am willing to discuss facts with you, but this--in the past--has lead to further insults and personal attacks from you. I want to avoid that. So, lets just drop it...