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Joined: Jun 2014
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What an overwhelming response! Thanks everyone.
It's good to see a variety of outlooks; gives me more options.
I think note naming games is the way to go for me. I am adjusting the settings to focus on 2 octaves within the Treble Clef only. I've already noticed some notes taking shape in my "muscle memory".
The suggestion to isolate a few notes to learn at a time seems to be a good idea for me. I started using mnemonics at the very beginning to give myself at least a platform upon which to expand my memory, but I am finding that individual notes are standing out before my brain needs to access the mnemonic crutch.
I downloaded an app that is similar to the "namethatnote" game linked above, so I have the ability to make use of those free moments. A 1 minute game here and there every day and I should be able to memorise the Treble clef within a month. I guess I'll just add the Bass clef after that, then start exposing myself to entry level sheet music every day.
Thanks a lot!
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My teacher used a combination of guide notes and intervals for me, and it worked pretty well.
If you look at the treble staff, that fancy treble clef sign on it is really just a g, and it circles the line of the treble staff that G is on so that's the first guide note for the treble staff and how I remembered it.
The same is true of the bass staff, the bass clef is really just an F and the line between the two dots is an F, and so that was my first guide note on that staff.
The second guide notes we used were the top line of the treble staff, which is an F, and the bottome line of the bass staff which is a G.. they're opposite the first guide note so that's how I remembered them.
Then you memorize middle C and with some experience you learn what the intervals look like, and 2nds/3rds/4ths/5ths are all pretty easily distinguishable at a glance so with a little bit of practice and those 5 guide notes you've got the entire grand staff and 2 ledger lines above/below it.
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Some people can just remember what the 4th line is, but what if you can't? What do you do to figure it out? Count up from a note you know? How many steps does that take? This is always an interesting discussion, how to approach note reading. Just knowing from memory all of the notes seems an impossible task. I'm not trying to start an argument, but here's how I see it. 1. What's the 5th letter of the alphabet? (and were you singing the song?) 2. What's the letter before G? Which took longer to answer? If you know where a few key notes are, you can associate all of the other notes around them. Just my 2 cents.
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Reading takes time. I had to spend a few minutes everyday on it. 15 - 20 minutes per day is plenty. Read one phrase at a time, one hand at a time, then try to play hands together. Progress seems slow at first but will pick up and surprise you.
Enjoy
"Imagine it in all its primatic colorings, its counterpart in our souls - our souls that are great pianos whose strings, of honey and of steel, the divisions of the rainbow set twanging, loosing on the air great novels of adventure!" - William Carlos Williams
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Just knowing from memory all of the notes seems an impossible task. Really? I know all the notes to three ledger lines above and below both treble and bass clefs, immediately, both location on the piano and note names. When I was playing flute regularly, I recognized the notes above the treble clef to five ledger lines + a space (high high C). And it would be useful to know at least one more ledger line cold on piano at each of the four extremes. I haven't yet put in the time to practice that, but I'm sure I can do it if I decide to focus on it. I wouldn't expect someone starting out reading to know these all right away, and I gather that for many people intervallic and guide notes seem to work better for getting started reading. But I don't think knowing all the notes in and of themselves rather than solely by reference is an impossible goal, even if the initial learning is via a matrix of guide notes and intervallic reading. But I'm not a teacher, so I don't know what most students experience. Am I really so unusual in knowing individual notes?
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Personally I don't think memorization or mnemonics work. I think that's why it takes people forever to learn how to read music and it frustrates them. You have to say the whole saying for a note on the top of the staff. And which saying goes with which staff again? Plus, it doesn't address ledger lines. I know it's the way it's always been done, but I don't teach it and often speak out against that method of learning. +1 Since music is based on patterns and relationships, one can come up with tricks and methods to result in quick answers--tricks, however, don't encourage the learning how the system actually functions!!! Lines and spaces do not equal specific note names. If one learns this way, then ledger lines, alternate clefs, and transpositions become exponentially more difficult. The staff system is unit of visual measurement/distance similar to a ruler (e.g., inches vs. mm). The clef indicates a few reference notes, as too does the key signature--which is one of the many reasons why knowing key signatures and constantly referring to it is important. Side note: one should always know what key [area] you are in, and where the 1st (tonic), 4th (subdominant), and 5th (dominant) scale degrees and chord are...always! Note reading should be judged by intervallic relationships, not by line/space 'names' (i.e., it should not be: first line is an E, third line is a B); when train properly, 'seeing' what a 5th looks like--as well as what the shape of the hand feels like--happens instantaneously, without having to process each note name first. In fact, you can practice by eliminating the staff altogether, and still read the music without major difficulties (i.e., no lines or spaces, just notes properly spaced). Lines are really only necessary for judging jumps of 8va or more.
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Just knowing from memory all of the notes seems an impossible task. Really? I know all the notes to three ledger lines above and below both treble and bass clefs, immediately, both location on the piano and note names. When I was playing flute regularly, I recognized the notes above the treble clef to five ledger lines + a space (high high C). And it would be useful to know at least one more ledger line cold on piano at each of the four extremes. I haven't yet put in the time to practice that, but I'm sure I can do it if I decide to focus on it. I wouldn't expect someone starting out reading to know these all right away, and I gather that for many people intervallic and guide notes seem to work better for getting started reading. But I don't think knowing all the notes in and of themselves rather than solely by reference is an impossible goal, even if the initial learning is via a matrix of guide notes and intervallic reading. But I'm not a teacher, so I don't know what most students experience. Am I really so unusual in knowing individual notes? I meant for a beginner. The more you play, yes, you'l recognize notes faster. I'd bet based on your flute playing that your very high ledger line reading is better than mine, just because you've read there more often. Maybe impossible was the wrong word. How long did it take you to become proficient in reading that well, memorizing every note? Years? Most people should be able to recognize all the notes from a few ledger lines below the bass clef to a few lines above the treble in a month, 2 tops. I'm talking about seeing one note and playing it correctly, flash card style. Speed and reading multiple notes in rhythm effectively is another story and would require lots of practice to speed up the recognition.
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I wouldn't say I "memorized" every note. I just learned them over time. I don't know how long it took me. I started when I was eight, when we moved from an apartment to a house and got my mother's piano out of storage and I started teaching myself to read music and play piano from her old method books. I didn't have any sense of time or impatience to achieve a certain level of achievement. I learned the notes using mnemonics, and I never had any trouble remembering the mnemonics or which went with which clef, or which was for spaces and which was for lines. I also didn't stay stuck with the mnemonics, always having to count up from the bottom. I just over time learned to know the note, without having to do the counting. (Same as how I know that E is the fifth letter of the alphabet, and Q the seventeenth... they've just come up as useful facts often enough that eventually they lodged in my memory.) The notes above and below the staff I learned one by one, as they started to appear more. I never used flash cards or note spelling drills. When I read about people either teaching or learning to read music, all of this seems atypical for the approaches people typically take nowadays.
Where I think I would benefit from practicing more intervallically and by shape is in reading chords. I've gotten good at triads, and certain patterns involving fifths (do-sol-do chord), but I could do a lot more practicing this way than I currently do.
I don't necessarily recommend this to others as the way to learn; it's just the path for how things worked out for me.
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[...] (Same as how I know that E is the fifth letter of the alphabet, and Q the seventeenth... they've just come up as useful facts often enough that eventually they lodged in my memory.) That is oddly impressive...
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Here is my tuppence worth. When I was in primary school, the whole class had to chant out their times table and the old English pence table every morning before lessons began. Consequently, I can tell you immediately what 8 x 12 or 7 x 8 amounts to. I feel that sight reading is similar to that learning curve. Like any other part of learning to play the piano, it all takes time and effort, there are no short cuts.
Phil
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Some people can just remember what the 4th line is, but what if you can't? What do you do to figure it out? Count up from a note you know? How many steps does that take? This is always an interesting discussion, how to approach note reading. Just knowing from memory all of the notes seems an impossible task. I'm not trying to start an argument, but here's how I see it. 1. What's the 5th letter of the alphabet? (and were you singing the song?) 2. What's the letter before G? Which took longer to answer? If you know where a few key notes are, you can associate all of the other notes around them. Just my 2 cents. And I'm not disagreeing with you at all. I've just had some adult students where I taught guide notes but it didn't work for them and when I gave them mnemonic devices that helped. So I think it's important to have as many tools available to us in the beginning stages to assist in learning to read. As a side note: how else would you determine the 5th note of the alphabet except by starting from the beginning? Or have you memorized the position of each letter? If the latter, that is simply amazing and I cannot do that! My point is simply that your questions may not necessarily be a true analogy to note reading. In your 2nd question, of course, you are referring to intervallic reading which I agree with 100%. In fact, I think I do more interval reading than note-naming when I play, and so that is my focus when I teach as well. This is a good discussion and I think it's great to challenge for the sake of learning more and exploring, so I don't see this as an argument.
private piano/voice teacher FT
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On knowing what comes before G vs. knowing the count of where E comes in the alphabet: I think that either of those facts only comes because of practice and focus. For example, I know instantly that the letter before G is F, but that's only because I've practiced that because of music. If instead you asked me what comes before U (for example), I can only answer that after running through a section of the alphabet forwards to find out. On the other hand, I know instantly that T is the 20th letter of the alphabet because I had some reason to work that out many years ago (I forget why) and I think it's a pretty fact, so it lodged in my memory.
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Reply to Morodiene. Nope! What I mean is: look at your piece and determine which note on the piano is the first note which you will play; put what looks to you to be a good finger for that note on that note. Keep the finger there whilst you determine which is the next note and find a finger for that. Now you may have to be left handed for the next step! Take a pencil and write in above those two notes the NUMBER of the fingers which you will use to play it ! Do this for say bar at a time and learn that bar looking at the music. Even after about learning three bars you will know which line or space corresponds to the physical key on the piano. I think it is more or less given that any person starting off will have to learn the names of the notes, BUT the trick to me to regonise instantly the connection between a ledger line/space and the the denominated key of the piano. I also suppose as a "sine qua non" that any teacher will have given their pupil some simple finger exercises as their first experience of the piano - it certainly was mine!
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Piano
by Gino2 - 04/17/24 02:34 PM
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Piano
by Gino2 - 04/17/24 02:23 PM
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