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I had such an overwhelming constructive response to my other thread about learning to sight read, I thought I'd open a discussion on another topic: how to practice effectively.

I'm just looking for suggestions on a practice regime that is focused enough to address the areas I specifically want to improve on, within a short enough period of time to maintain 100% focus.

Right now, I feel I should be focusing on learning the major and minor scales with correct fingering. Having learnt to play by ear, I essentially learnt scales by trial and error then felt the "shape" of the scale and transposed it when changing tonics (with incorrect fingering, which is a major issue for me trying to unlearn now).

I don't want to repeat the mistake of acquiring bad habits!

I want to put at least 20 minutes a day into developing correct fingering. How should I structure my practice?

Eg. Major scales ONLY first; white keys only until about to pass up and down multiple octaves accurately at 60bpm. Add Bb until at 60bpm, add Db etc etc

I guess I have the kind of personality where a set structure helps me maintain focus and actually complete tasks and narrow the gap towards my goals.

Are there any workbooks with exercises and regimens I could find around or any suggestions?

Cheers!

Slower is better to start. Only play the scales as fast you can do so accurately and easily - which is to say, VERY slowly.

Start out with Major scales, chords, and arpeggios. It's my understanding that you are a relative beginner? (Sorry if I misremembered) If so, 20 minutes on this is way too long, probably. It all depends on how long it takes you to play something well, but if you spent 10 minutes per day on one key (e.g., C major) then after about a week of that you'd know it really well and could move on to G major.

Maybe do one key per week, focusing on scales, chords and arpeggios for one octave in that key. You can go around the circle of 5ths if you like, or arrange your scales according to the same fingering, or start with ergonomic scales first - the order, I believe doesn't matter much. The most important thing next to consistent fingering is to make sure you are free of excess tensions.

I don't recommend doing more than one octave to start, though, because it might be too overwhelming. If anything, you can go through a cycle of all keys in one octave, then 2 octaves, then 3, etc. Don't get into speed or metronome work until you can do the 2 octaves in all keys pretty easily.

Having said all that, fingering is not only worked on in technical work like scales. In everything that you play, strive to be consistent with your fingering. Use suggestions at least to start since you're not sure what to use (and be sure it's a good edition of sheet music with standard fingering), and then if you find they just do not work, try and figure out an alternative. Whatever you do, make sure it doesn't hinder your ability to play the passage well technically and musically, or add excess tension.

Thanks for your reply. I guess I should put a bit more information on my current skill level.

I have been playing piano on/off for over a decade. I have played in a few bands and was actually pretty successful with regular paid gigs for years. I have composed lots of music ranging from electronica to lounge. I play by ear and have very small hands, so I developed a rather bad and limiting/unscalable technique.

The lack of a foundation of correct technique and theory has lead me to the point where I'm failing to improve any more and failing to properly comprehend more complicated theory. I can quickly identify a lot of chords; like if you say Bbmaj7 I can almost instantly play it in root position and rather quickly establish multiple voicings, but ask me to play a lydian mode in the key of C and I have no idea ...

Ask me to cycle through the major scale with correct fingering over all tonics and ... I cannot.

So while you can probably communicate with me me as though I have more of an intermediate level, I really want to be treated like a beginner or sorts so that I can really lay down the foundations I lack, unlearn my bad habbits and pave the way for further improvement.

My ultimate goal is to be able to read through the jazz piano books I have and become able to improvise a LOT more freely. At the moment I feel so limited to pentatonic scales and basic chord voicings - it really makes my ability to follow songs and to solo rather bland.

Cheers!

A subject close to my heart as just a few weeks ago I finally managed to learn all twelve major and harmonic minor scales in two octaves. I had a couple of false starts in my 20 months since beginning piano which I put down to partly not being ready, and being swayed by the anti scales reading I came across.

While I had a few major scales fairly secure I had a mental barrier against the flat major scales and all the harmonic minor scales. But when the time was right I just gritted my teeth and dived in. Surprisingly, although I don’t deny scales are hard, I learned all the fingerings to the previously unknown scales within a month just through daily practice.

On a previous attempt to learn scales I set up an excel spreadsheet which count the amount of the times I play a scale. Using this all the unknown scales had a zero attempt against them and so I just concentrated on those adding one or two a day if possible. If the scale were easy it might not get any practice for a few days but if it were hard it would be included in the next day’s session. It became apparent early on that the major scales were easier than the minor scales so the minor scales were practiced more often. In the early days I might be exhausted after only three scales but after a while some became more secure and I would do four, five, six and so on until I reached my present regime. I keep a copy of the circle of fiths in front of the piano and my scale fingering book handy for reference. Every morning I do twelve scales all minor or all major. Because the minor scales are harder and some still not very secure I will do two days of minor scales then one day of major then back to minor. This system is working really well and the count of the scales is increasing which gives a sort of feedback. Speed is irrelevant at the moment on any scale I am just working on accuracy and confidence. Future work will include increased tempo, contrary motion, staccato scales and all those other tricks but for now happy to have finally gotten over this hurdle.

This is a link to what my spreadsheet looks like.

What is your primary learning objective?

Are you trying to learn the scales and fingering so that when you encounter them in music, you are able to instinctively execute the patterns without calculation/thought?

OR

Are you trying to learn the different contour/shape of each key area on the piano, so that you instinctively know the 'feeling' [and slight sound difference] of each key area--including automatically 'knowing/feeling' all of the tonic-subdominant-dominat relationships among the keys?

OR, maybe something else entirely?

BTW, can you quickly answer [hypothetically] how many accidentals are in every key area, including the other way around (e.g., 5 flats = what key area)?

Check out this thread:
https://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubb...ndamentals_of_piano_practice.html#UNREAD

As a classical guitarist, I was taught to use scale practice to develop tone quality through careful listening.

I guess fingering comes along with that too.

Thanks for the input. Sounds good to me! I find the fingering of the scales starting on sharp/flats the hardest to get to stick. My hands kind of instinctively predict the notes in the other tonics based on the physical shape of the pattern. I guess I should learn ALL the major scales before starting to practice minors, then do something similar to you every day.

Hi, thanks for chiming in. I guess more option 2: given that I have learnt by playing by ear so far, my ability to learn scales based on fingering pattern/shape and SOUND will allow me to learn a lot faster than with a view to reading music. I'm trying to learn to read music as a side venture at the moment.

No, I cannot answer how many accidentals are in every key area quickly. Although I do understand the question. I will study the circle of fifths more intently once I have the practical underlying skills. Also, because I've managed to avoid the black noted scales so far, I haven't memorised all the notes within them and I understand that the high number of flat/sharp notes in the major scale are mostly from black note roots.

I could tell you how many are in the white note roots though B has 5!

Is there some particular reference I should read to strengthen this knowledge and to better understand why this information is beneficial?

If you plan on improvisation at all, here is a quick tip on learning scales. Don't just learn finger numbers, etc. Learn the scale degrees. For example, you need to know that E is the 3rd note in the C major scale. This gets very important over time. In fact, in real world music, it is probably more important than fingering. Here is an article discussing this more: http://greghowlett.com/blog/free-lessons/a-new-way-of-looking-at-scales.aspx

Thanks for the link, Greg. I understand the degrees based on major or minor keys, but the order of my thoughts goes more like this:

Fmaj: Ok so F is obviously the Root, then my hand "feels" the shape of the typical root triad F A C OR my mind can map the shape metaphysically and subsequently process the notes in isolation. I understand that A is the third and C the fith. I know how to add the 7th etc.

But my THINKING always seems to be based on building upon the root, then reverse engineering after my muscle memory creates the shape of the major scale.

Is there a better way? And how do you re-learn it?

Think/do this:
FM (1 flat): scale degrees 1(F), 4(B-flat), 5(C). The standard 1-3-5 hand shape/feel produces automatically I (F,A,C), IV (B-flat, D, F), and V (C,E,G).

Don't build up from the root: know the standard hand shape, and set your thumb on the scale degree that you intend.

Once you have your I, IV, and V, feel, you can expand it to the more functionally accurate I, ii6, V7. Then expand your hand shape repertoire to include first and second inversions. Not what they look like on the music or on the keyboard--what they feel like. <----this allows you to then play the same patterns in EVERY key, and not have to rethink, relearn, and rememorise relationships that simply happen to start on different tonal centres.

Thanks, A443! I have kind of memorised the 3rd and 5ths already, but not from scales, but from root position major chords. I'll try to be mindful of the notes I'm hitting in scales too!

I have severely neglected my left hand in my self-teaching, so I'm trying to learn the scales equally on left and right hands and ... wow I'm bad.

The asymmetrical fingering increments really mess with my head. And I'm having a lot of difficulty with the larger thumb tuck when descending a left handed scale. Ie tucking under finger 4 to place the thumb back on the root tonic.

I have really short stumpy fingers, so I may need coaching to work with my unique hand shape. What keeps happening is my thumb lands on the same note that the 4th finger has depressed and can't quite make it one note further to the left. The fact that the key is depressed is probably like a point of resistance for it to tuck into or something.

I also have very inflexible fingers due to arthritic joints. I know I don't sound like the best candidate for playing piano haha I tend to make up for my disadvantaged reach (I can only JUST reach an octave) by using clever inversions and relying on dexterity moreso than flexibility.

Any tips? Should this be a new thread? Cheers!

I believe any movements even if it may seems strange can be learned by very slow practice. As previously mentioned I have just recently finished learning major and minor scales in two octaves. While majors seem a little more instinctive some of the minors are like brain teasers. But a daily slow practice session on these scales is working wonders.

If you want to learn all the major and harmonic minor scales, you could try working around the circle of fifths for the major scales, and learning each related minor as you come across each major.

So, first scale is C major(no sharps or flats), then its related minor: A harmonic minor (notice it is the same notes as C major except the seventh note is raised). Next major is G (with F sharp - it is the same as C also, with the seventh raised), and G's related minor is E (same as G major but with the seventh raised), next major is D (F sharp and C sharp - same as G, but with the seventh raised), and its related minor is B (same as D major but with seventh raised) and so on, all the way around.

This method is also very good for learning to recognise keys and key signatures.

All scales use the two group pattern [1,2,3] [1,2,3,4] (RH rising, LH falling) with modifications at the extremities. Correct fingering for scales means finding out where the 4th finger goes as it's only used once per octave. Passing the thumb under the 4th finger is harder than under the 3rd so it's ergonomically easier if the 4th finger is raised on a black key.

The natural (ergonomic) rule for the major keys and their relative minors is that RH 4th finger 'belongs' on Bb in the flat keys or the last sharp in the key signature where it's not used. In C Major it's usually used on B (fifth finger on the tonic).

The LH 4th finger 'belongs' on F# for the sharp keys or on the last flat in the key signature where it's not used. In C Major it's usually used on D (fifth finger on the tonic).

This is in contrast to the (Hanon?) method of trying to use C Major fingering as a default.

B Major is the easiest key for RH, physically, and D flat the easiest key for LH. These are the keys to learn first (and C Major last) if you're focussing on fingering or comfort.

ZigZiglar, experiment with allowing your arm and elbow and wrist and angle to the keyboard to be flexible. You may be trying to hold everything at a 90-degree angle to the keyboard which I think will make the thumb-passing harder. Do this hands separate at first until you've found a healthy and useful motion.

Experiment with going the other way: observing what happens when you pass the hand over the thumb to make a 1-4 transition. That's RH descending, LH ascending. Do this hands separate. Do you have similar problems as with the 4-1 transition? If not, figure out what the motions are for the working 1-4 transition, and see if you can reverse them for a 4-1 transition. If you do have problems, you still may find it easier to find a solution in the 4-1 transition first.

None of this is guaranteed, and you have to be careful not to end up with hurtful motions, which I'm not qualified to give any particular advice on. But these are things that I have found helped me over time in working on my own to achieve more facility and more comfort in scales and arpeggios.

For example, when I first started practicing arpeggios, I quickly found that I was hurting myself; I backed off of them and then over the course of several months found better ways of moving. Not all of that time was spent working on the arpeggios; some of it I think was that I found better ways of moving overall, and more ideas about flexible touch and motion, and when I started trying arpeggios again I had more ideas than when I first tried them.

I am working on scales, too. I have a really hard time knowing when to use 4 or 1 ascending, and the when descending, same thing, can't consistently remember when to switch and whether I should be trading 1 for 3 or 1 for 4 in the right hand. And all these same issues on the left, though the fingering isn't the same.

Is there a good way to remember this? I'm using a scale book that has the fingering for a two octave scale and if I'm not looking at the book I typically mangle it up, mostly on the descent, but sometimes on the ascent.

Also, is a particular note always played by the same finger on both theascent and the descent, for any key? Is the pattern used when playing contrary motion any different? My book doesn't show contrary motion.

I'm trying to identify rules and patterns that I can apply, so I don't have to rely on the book for fingering.

I think it is relatively easy to memorise fingering, as you only really need to remember one note; this is the note where your finger 1 (thumb) creates a pivot point.

There is a similar pattern that emerges when transcending multiple octaves, you simply pivot a note earlier in compensation for the 8th note.

If I were you, I'd focus on repeating one key across one octave in both hands by following the fingering in the book. You will soon enough memorise it and develop an understanding of the fingering.

Then the next step would be identifying which keys have altered fingering and slowly adding them into your repertoire. Like Fmaj, for example; it only has one difference, 1234,123 instead of 123,1234 and the inverse on the pass back. That would be the first irregular fingering major scale I'd learn next.

Thanks! I had not thought about it that way - just remembering the pivot note. I will give that a try!