Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Tuner-Technicians Forum The Reign of ETD Tuners

...has officially begun, after PTG's accepting the use of ETD for the aural part of the examination.

In short this means: Aural tuners OUT, ETD tuners IN!

Now, more technicians are obliged to increase their electronic device using skills, along with better understanding of computer software, hardware and mathematics.

Whether this era will last as long as the aural tuning era depends on the advent of new technologies, that will make digital pianos take over acoustic pianos altogether.

I think it means ETD tuners are on an equal footing as far as the test goes. The idea that aural tuners are out is a bit of a reach.

You know water flows through the easy way.
Why would anybody bother with the cumbersome way in the future?

Hakki, you may want to consider that the PTG as long used ETDs to score the exam against the master tuning. Why might that be?

Like other scientific measuring devices, an ETD gives consistent measurements in terms of 'relative distance' from the intended target.

How do you know, for example, what 20C feels like? Perhaps you've learned to check your experience against the feedback of a thermostat/hygrometer?

Can you now see how this feedback could assist a student in the pedagogical process of learning aural tuning, and maybe even the technique of stability?

Every art class has more than a few sculptors who will artistically never amount to a hill of beans. But fear not, a big magnifying glass is the answer for them to better see what they cannot do.

Tuning a piano well is hard work, there is no 'easy way' to do a high-quality and stable tuning, with or without an ETD. Setting a temperament is not that big of a deal.

With all due respect, Hakki, I think you are making this way bigger of a deal than it actually is.

An ETD is just a tool. It can help to tune faster and minimize interval adjustments (when not an expert), but most of the time it can't tune bass strings correctly, so you still need to use your ears anyway.

+1

And I recall the number of times people went around the Mulberry bush with Mr Hakki over a related subject not all that long ago.

Aural tuners are here to stay.

I went to Art School. The only useful thing that I learned was how to see. I have found a lot of money in the streets with that skill.


HW

I am an ETD tuner, and I can't think of a reason why I will ever not be an ETD tuner. That said, I am learning to tune by ear. Yeah, I can honestly say that I hate it. It's hard and frustrating, but so was learning to tune unisons by ear. If you can't be bothered to even attempt to learn to tune a temperament and midrange octaves aurally, then I think that's sad. The minimum requirements that the PTG asks for in the tuning exam are very generous--too generous. I think the premise of this thread is utterly ridiculous.

"I think the premise of this thread is utterly ridiculous." beethoven986

You're right. It appears to be one of those types of over-the-top statements designed to stir controversy. So far the attempt has fallen pretty flat.

I like to call it, high-drama.

This topic isn't ridiculous. It is important for aspiring piano technicians to learn to tune aurally. Yes it takes effort to learn and Yes it is worth the effort. I started out using the Sanderson accu-tuner and after two years I developed the hammer technique and listening skills to tune aurally with confidence. I never have considered turning back. Aural tuning skills are the foundation for voicing. Its wonderful to truly hear a piano.

Riding a bike is a lot more fun when you take the training wheels off.

Enjoy.

That is not really true...

I teach students to make small voicing adjustment (i.e., with a single string voicer), before they learn to tune unisons. From the beginning, it encourages them to actively/constantly 'listen' to tonal details while they are tuning single strings with an ETD--many technicians believe ETDs create non-thinking/listening tuners, which is not at all the case, when done properly.

Learning to tune unisons with earplugs, and [loud] noise in the environment, is VERY important. I've long advocated tandem tunings: two people on the same piano tuning, one section apart; one tuner sets the strings to the ETD and the other pulls in the unisons. This is excellent training, and great for multiple passes that get the piano stabilised (i.e., strings rendered and pins set) to a point where it is finally ready to be tuned aurally (e.g., closer than 1/2 cent).

Once a tuner can tune comfortably under the aforementioned conditions, learning to recognise/feel beat-rates to tune aurally is less of a traumatic experience. It's ideal in an institutional settings for training multiple student tuning assistants.

Here we go round the mulberry bush,
The mulberry bush,
The mulberry bush.
Here we go round the mulberry bush
On a cold and frosty morning.

Here we go round the mulberry bush,
The mulberry bush,
The mulberry bush.
Here we go round the mulberry bush
So early in the morning.

Here we go round the peeaaanoo
The peeaaanoo,
The peeaaanoo,
Here we round the peeaaanoo,
Again n again n again

Guys,

If anyone has been following Hakki's posts, you will remember that he lamented over not being able to convince two university tuners to do aural tunings, presumably because he felt the ETD tunings done by those tuners were lacking.

Now he posts this controversial thread.

He's just not to be taken seriously, IMHO.

Great, why not. I only pretend that looking at an ETD slows the ear, unless you tune first look later, the listening mode changes. The eyes are way less fast that the ear, and the ETD is faster than the ears, or seem to be. What would be useful is if the ET showed a time graph of pitch and volume ,not "real time" we cannot really be sure what is shown as it does not relate well to what we hear.

You hardly can tune an immediate tone with ETD's, usually one wait until the display is quiet, so the justness is attained by a late tone.

I think that even on experienced tuners, the way the ETD modify your way of listening is very subtle and pass unnoticed.

Then there are some listening modes the ear/brain are not using at all, it turns to a precision work vs the ETD, some of the "spirit" of tuning is lost, an I have seen lost of interest for tuning due to abuse of ETD (up to a colleague that stopped concert tuning as he find it annoying, the way it goes).

What I did not get is that we are then sticking to an ET model, and quieten a lot the piano's own resonances, so in the en the "in tune" sensation reflects more the model than the instrument. At some point there is a dissociation.

+1