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#2290448 - 06/16/14 10:05 AM The Reign of ETD Tuners  
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Hakki Offline
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...has officially begun, after PTG's accepting the use of ETD for the aural part of the examination.

In short this means: Aural tuners OUT, ETD tuners IN!

Now, more technicians are obliged to increase their electronic device using skills, along with better understanding of computer software, hardware and mathematics.

Whether this era will last as long as the aural tuning era depends on the advent of new technologies, that will make digital pianos take over acoustic pianos altogether.

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#2290563 - 06/16/14 02:11 PM Re: The Reign of ETD Tuners [Re: Hakki]  
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David Jenson Offline
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Originally Posted by Hakki


In short this means: Aural tuners OUT, ETD tuners IN!


I think it means ETD tuners are on an equal footing as far as the test goes. The idea that aural tuners are out is a bit of a reach.


David L. Jenson
Tuning - Repairs - Refurbishing
Jenson's Piano Service
-----
#2290573 - 06/16/14 02:22 PM Re: The Reign of ETD Tuners [Re: David Jenson]  
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Hakki Offline
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Originally Posted by David Jenson
Originally Posted by Hakki


In short this means: Aural tuners OUT, ETD tuners IN!


I think it means ETD tuners are on an equal footing as far as the test goes. The idea that aural tuners are out is a bit of a reach.


You know water flows through the easy way.
Why would anybody bother with the cumbersome way in the future?

#2290590 - 06/16/14 02:50 PM Re: The Reign of ETD Tuners [Re: Hakki]  
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A454.7 Offline
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Hakki, you may want to consider that the PTG as long used ETDs to score the exam against the master tuning. Why might that be?

Like other scientific measuring devices, an ETD gives consistent measurements in terms of 'relative distance' from the intended target.

How do you know, for example, what 20C feels like? Perhaps you've learned to check your experience against the feedback of a thermostat/hygrometer?

Can you now see how this feedback could assist a student in the pedagogical process of learning aural tuning, and maybe even the technique of stability?


Masters degree in piano technology, +factory(s) training, etc., blah, blah, yada, yada, yada...[uncensored break-out in song]..."it don't mean a thing, if you aint got that swing."
--Klavierbaukuenstler des Erwachens--
Email: klavierbaukuenstler@gmail.com
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#2290591 - 06/16/14 02:50 PM Re: The Reign of ETD Tuners [Re: Hakki]  
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Every art class has more than a few sculptors who will artistically never amount to a hill of beans. But fear not, a big magnifying glass is the answer for them to better see what they cannot do.


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#2290628 - 06/16/14 04:33 PM Re: The Reign of ETD Tuners [Re: Hakki]  
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Originally Posted by Hakki
Originally Posted by David Jenson
Originally Posted by Hakki


In short this means: Aural tuners OUT, ETD tuners IN!


I think it means ETD tuners are on an equal footing as far as the test goes. The idea that aural tuners are out is a bit of a reach.


You know water flows through the easy way.
Why would anybody bother with the cumbersome way in the future?


Tuning a piano well is hard work, there is no 'easy way' to do a high-quality and stable tuning, with or without an ETD. Setting a temperament is not that big of a deal.


Tuner-Technician


#2290668 - 06/16/14 06:08 PM Re: The Reign of ETD Tuners [Re: Hakki]  
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With all due respect, Hakki, I think you are making this way bigger of a deal than it actually is.


Ben Patterson, RPT
South Jersey Piano Service, LLC
www.sjpianoservice.com
#2290681 - 06/16/14 06:28 PM Re: The Reign of ETD Tuners [Re: Hakki]  
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Bosendorff Offline
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An ETD is just a tool. It can help to tune faster and minimize interval adjustments (when not an expert), but most of the time it can't tune bass strings correctly, so you still need to use your ears anyway.

#2290732 - 06/16/14 08:10 PM Re: The Reign of ETD Tuners [Re: BenP]  
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Originally Posted by BenP
With all due respect, Hakki, I think you are making this way bigger of a deal than it actually is.

+1


David L. Jenson
Tuning - Repairs - Refurbishing
Jenson's Piano Service
-----
#2290737 - 06/16/14 08:17 PM Re: The Reign of ETD Tuners [Re: BenP]  
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Originally Posted by BenP
With all due respect, Hakki, I think you are making this way bigger of a deal than it actually is.


And I recall the number of times people went around the Mulberry bush with Mr Hakki over a related subject not all that long ago.

Aural tuners are here to stay.


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#2290741 - 06/16/14 08:29 PM Re: The Reign of ETD Tuners [Re: Emmery]  
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Originally Posted by Emmery
Every art class has more than a few sculptors who will artistically never amount to a hill of beans. But fear not, a big magnifying glass is the answer for them to better see what they cannot do.


I went to Art School. The only useful thing that I learned was how to see. I have found a lot of money in the streets with that skill. smile


HW


"Respond intelligently, even to unintelligent treatment."
-Lao Tzu
#2290774 - 06/16/14 10:15 PM Re: The Reign of ETD Tuners [Re: Hakki]  
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Originally Posted by Hakki
...has officially begun, after PTG's accepting the use of ETD for the aural part of the examination.

In short this means: Aural tuners OUT, ETD tuners IN!

Now, more technicians are obliged to increase their electronic device using skills, along with better understanding of computer software, hardware and mathematics.

Whether this era will last as long as the aural tuning era depends on the advent of new technologies, that will make digital pianos take over acoustic pianos altogether.


I am an ETD tuner, and I can't think of a reason why I will ever not be an ETD tuner. That said, I am learning to tune by ear. Yeah, I can honestly say that I hate it. It's hard and frustrating, but so was learning to tune unisons by ear. If you can't be bothered to even attempt to learn to tune a temperament and midrange octaves aurally, then I think that's sad. The minimum requirements that the PTG asks for in the tuning exam are very generous--too generous. I think the premise of this thread is utterly ridiculous.

#2290778 - 06/16/14 10:22 PM Re: The Reign of ETD Tuners [Re: Hakki]  
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"I think the premise of this thread is utterly ridiculous." beethoven986

You're right. It appears to be one of those types of over-the-top statements designed to stir controversy. So far the attempt has fallen pretty flat.


David L. Jenson
Tuning - Repairs - Refurbishing
Jenson's Piano Service
-----
#2290780 - 06/16/14 10:23 PM Re: The Reign of ETD Tuners [Re: David Jenson]  
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Jbyron Offline
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Originally Posted by David Jenson
"I think the premise of this thread is utterly ridiculous." beethoven986

You're right. It appears to be one of those types of over-the-top statements designed to stir controversy. So far the attempt has fallen pretty flat.


I like to call it, high-drama.


Tuner-Technician


#2290787 - 06/16/14 10:56 PM Re: The Reign of ETD Tuners [Re: Hakki]  
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This topic isn't ridiculous. It is important for aspiring piano technicians to learn to tune aurally. Yes it takes effort to learn and Yes it is worth the effort. I started out using the Sanderson accu-tuner and after two years I developed the hammer technique and listening skills to tune aurally with confidence. I never have considered turning back. Aural tuning skills are the foundation for voicing. Its wonderful to truly hear a piano.

Riding a bike is a lot more fun when you take the training wheels off.

Enjoy.


"Imagine it in all its primatic colorings, its counterpart in our souls - our souls that are great pianos whose strings, of honey and of steel, the divisions of the rainbow set twanging, loosing on the air great novels of adventure!" - William Carlos Williams
#2290799 - 06/16/14 11:41 PM Re: The Reign of ETD Tuners [Re: Dave B]  
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A454.7 Offline
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Originally Posted by Dave B
Aural tuning skills are the foundation for voicing. Its wonderful to truly hear a piano.
That is not really true...

I teach students to make small voicing adjustment (i.e., with a single string voicer), before they learn to tune unisons. From the beginning, it encourages them to actively/constantly 'listen' to tonal details while they are tuning single strings with an ETD--many technicians believe ETDs create non-thinking/listening tuners, which is not at all the case, when done properly.

Learning to tune unisons with earplugs, and [loud] noise in the environment, is VERY important. I've long advocated tandem tunings: two people on the same piano tuning, one section apart; one tuner sets the strings to the ETD and the other pulls in the unisons. This is excellent training, and great for multiple passes that get the piano stabilised (i.e., strings rendered and pins set) to a point where it is finally ready to be tuned aurally (e.g., closer than 1/2 cent).

Once a tuner can tune comfortably under the aforementioned conditions, learning to recognise/feel beat-rates to tune aurally is less of a traumatic experience. It's ideal in an institutional settings for training multiple student tuning assistants.


Masters degree in piano technology, +factory(s) training, etc., blah, blah, yada, yada, yada...[uncensored break-out in song]..."it don't mean a thing, if you aint got that swing."
--Klavierbaukuenstler des Erwachens--
Email: klavierbaukuenstler@gmail.com
#2290829 - 06/17/14 02:04 AM Re: The Reign of ETD Tuners [Re: Hakki]  
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Grandpianoman Offline
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Portland, Oregon
Here we go round the mulberry bush,
The mulberry bush,
The mulberry bush.
Here we go round the mulberry bush
On a cold and frosty morning.

Here we go round the mulberry bush,
The mulberry bush,
The mulberry bush.
Here we go round the mulberry bush
So early in the morning.

Here we go round the peeaaanoo
The peeaaanoo,
The peeaaanoo,
Here we round the peeaaanoo,
Again n again n again


Last edited by Grandpianoman; 06/17/14 02:07 AM.
#2290865 - 06/17/14 05:52 AM Re: The Reign of ETD Tuners [Re: Hakki]  
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Mark Cerisano Offline
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Guys,

If anyone has been following Hakki's posts, you will remember that he lamented over not being able to convince two university tuners to do aural tunings, presumably because he felt the ETD tunings done by those tuners were lacking.

Now he posts this controversial thread.

He's just not to be taken seriously, IMHO.


Mark Cerisano, RPT, B.Sc.(Mech.Eng), Dip.Ed.(Music)
www.howtotunepianos.com
#2290871 - 06/17/14 06:17 AM Re: The Reign of ETD Tuners [Re: A454.7]  
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France
Originally Posted by A443
Originally Posted by Dave B
Aural tuning skills are the foundation for voicing. Its wonderful to truly hear a piano.
That is not really true...

I teach students to make small voicing adjustment (i.e., with a single string voicer), before they learn to tune unisons. From the beginning, it encourages them to actively/constantly 'listen' to tonal details while they are tuning single strings with an ETD--many technicians believe ETDs create non-thinking/listening tuners, which is not at all the case, when done properly.


Great, why not. I only pretend that looking at an ETD slows the ear, unless you tune first look later, the listening mode changes. The eyes are way less fast that the ear, and the ETD is faster than the ears, or seem to be. What would be useful is if the ET showed a time graph of pitch and volume ,not "real time" we cannot really be sure what is shown as it does not relate well to what we hear.

You hardly can tune an immediate tone with ETD's, usually one wait until the display is quiet, so the justness is attained by a late tone.

I think that even on experienced tuners, the way the ETD modify your way of listening is very subtle and pass unnoticed.

Then there are some listening modes the ear/brain are not using at all, it turns to a precision work vs the ETD, some of the "spirit" of tuning is lost, an I have seen lost of interest for tuning due to abuse of ETD (up to a colleague that stopped concert tuning as he find it annoying, the way it goes).

What I did not get is that we are then sticking to an ET model, and quieten a lot the piano's own resonances, so in the en the "in tune" sensation reflects more the model than the instrument. At some point there is a dissociation.









Professional of the profession.
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I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
#2290874 - 06/17/14 06:23 AM Re: The Reign of ETD Tuners [Re: Mark Cerisano]  
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Originally Posted by Mark Cerisano, RPT
Guys,

If anyone has been following Hakki's posts, you will remember that he lamented over not being able to convince two university tuners to do aural tunings, presumably because he felt the ETD tunings done by those tuners were lacking.

Now he posts this controversial thread.

He's just not to be taken seriously, IMHO.

+1


David L. Jenson
Tuning - Repairs - Refurbishing
Jenson's Piano Service
-----
#2290880 - 06/17/14 06:49 AM Re: The Reign of ETD Tuners [Re: beethoven986]  
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Originally Posted by beethoven986
I am an ETD tuner, and I can't think of a reason why I will ever not be an ETD tuner. That said, I am learning to tune by ear. Yeah, I can honestly say that I hate it. It's hard and frustrating, but so was learning to tune unisons by ear. If you can't be bothered to even attempt to learn to tune a temperament and midrange octaves aurally, then I think that's sad.

Beethoven, I commend you. Your attitude is why some go from being a good tuner to a great tuner.

Good on ya!


Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.
#2290887 - 06/17/14 07:10 AM Re: The Reign of ETD Tuners [Re: Hakki]  
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As an aural tuner I tried several ETD devices. I really couldn't get interested in them. Using them involved to much fiddling, extra equipment and expense. There are tools in the catalogs that I don't buy, and ETD stuff is solidly in that category.


David L. Jenson
Tuning - Repairs - Refurbishing
Jenson's Piano Service
-----
#2290890 - 06/17/14 07:13 AM Re: The Reign of ETD Tuners [Re: beethoven986]  
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Olek Offline
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Originally Posted by beethoven986
Originally Posted by Hakki
...has officially begun, after PTG's accepting the use of ETD for the aural part of the examination.

In short this means: Aural tuners OUT, ETD tuners IN!

Now, more technicians are obliged to increase their electronic device using skills, along with better understanding of computer software, hardware and mathematics.

Whether this era will last as long as the aural tuning era depends on the advent of new technologies, that will make digital pianos take over acoustic pianos altogether.


I am an ETD tuner, and I can't think of a reason why I will ever not be an ETD tuner. That said, I am learning to tune by ear. Yeah, I can honestly say that I hate it. It's hard and frustrating, but so was learning to tune unisons by ear. If you can't be bothered to even attempt to learn to tune a temperament and midrange octaves aurally, then I think that's sad. The minimum requirements that the PTG asks for in the tuning exam are very generous--too generous. I think the premise of this thread is utterly ridiculous.


Hi ! Listening with an ETD and listening for tuning are 2 different things, ask Raphael, who have good ears and the experience, if you do not trust me.


Try to do that : tweaking unison , no mutes, strong radio/music noise in background :

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6GjQDkF_AMQb19hSWUydG1IYjQ/edit?usp=sharing

If you can do so you should have no trouble to listen to whatever interval activity.

If when learning tuning one is properly shown how to listen and what to listen for, the listening part of the job can soon be apprehended (then refined with experience )

The ones that defend the use of ETD for the exam because they use it, possibly have forget that they have first learned to tune before using the ETD.
I think it is a disservice to younger persons that want to enter the trade.

That said I dont know what is the basic level with the RPT diploma, I have seen a colleague that was initially RPT , in nee of some lessons to understand how to obtain a pleasing tone. When he worked here he realized he was doing things differently an ha to learn local ways (may I say international ways as the instructor was a Yamaha tech)

Here also whatever the exam is, the way practical learning have been conducted determines the quality of the technician, I mean, where is he working when not at school, on what class of instruments, for which type of customer.

Regards



Last edited by Olek; 06/17/14 07:16 AM.

Professional of the profession.
Foo Foo specialist
I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
#2290923 - 06/17/14 08:23 AM Re: The Reign of ETD Tuners [Re: Hakki]  
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Those who have not foreseen PTG's move should better take this SERIOUSLY and consider revising their business model.

#2290933 - 06/17/14 08:40 AM Re: The Reign of ETD Tuners [Re: Hakki]  
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Omaha, NE
Hakki, as an outsider to the field, I don't really think you are in a position to be counseling other technicians about the writing on the wall.


Adam Schulte-Bukowinski, RPT
ASB Piano Service
Omaha, NE
#2290941 - 06/17/14 08:46 AM Re: The Reign of ETD Tuners [Re: Hakki]  
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Hakki Offline
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Read my signature.

edit: And it won't take long for PTG to allow the use of ETD in any part of the exam (unisons etc.)

Last edited by Hakki; 06/17/14 09:21 AM.
#2290974 - 06/17/14 09:37 AM Re: The Reign of ETD Tuners [Re: Hakki]  
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Me,me,me,me,me,I,I,I,I,I,me,me,me. That one?


Tuner-Technician


#2290977 - 06/17/14 09:43 AM Re: The Reign of ETD Tuners [Re: Jbyron]  
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Hakki Offline
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Originally Posted by Jbyron
Me,me,me,me,me,I,I,I,I,I,me,me,me. That one?


No.

The O,o,o,o,o,o,t,t,t,t,t,o,o,o,o one.

#2290978 - 06/17/14 09:54 AM Re: The Reign of ETD Tuners [Re: Dave B]  
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Conway, AR USA
Originally Posted by Dave B
...
Aural tuning skills are the foundation for voicing.


This is a good point, Dave, definite article excepted. One voicing seminar in particular has a reputation for leaving techs with AHS (Aching hand syndrome wink )


Bob W.
Piano Technician (Retired since 2006)
Conway, Arkansas
www.pianotechno.blogspot.com
#2290980 - 06/17/14 10:00 AM Re: The Reign of ETD Tuners [Re: Minnesota Marty]  
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Originally Posted by Minnesota Marty
Originally Posted by beethoven986
I am an ETD tuner, and I can't think of a reason why I will ever not be an ETD tuner. That said, I am learning to tune by ear. Yeah, I can honestly say that I hate it. It's hard and frustrating, but so was learning to tune unisons by ear. If you can't be bothered to even attempt to learn to tune a temperament and midrange octaves aurally, then I think that's sad.

Beethoven, I commend you. Your attitude is why some go from being a good tuner to a great tuner.

Good on ya!


Ditto smile


Bob W.
Piano Technician (Retired since 2006)
Conway, Arkansas
www.pianotechno.blogspot.com
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