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Re: Pianoteq 5 [Re: scorpio] #2287977
06/10/14 07:22 AM
06/10/14 07:22 AM
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Sydney, Australia
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sullivang Offline
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Wow - very hard to guess. I prefer the tone of 1 slightly - it sounds a bit more stereo, and some notes have a bit more variation in timbre as the notes evolve, and I like that. So, I'd say No 1 is the sampled one, given my current attitude towards Pianoteq. ;^)

Neither recording sounds excellent to me though - nothing to do with the music (which I don't like) but the tone doesn't excite me in either recording.

Greg.

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Re: Pianoteq 5 [Re: scorpio] #2287998
06/10/14 08:39 AM
06/10/14 08:39 AM
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PJ88 Offline
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Thanks to all who have responded so far. I'll reveal the details within 24 hours. Keep putting in your votes!

Normally, I'm not a big fan of Mozart sonatas, partly because I can't play them. But they serve as a acid test for software piano because they don't sound that exciting unless played extremely well on an extremely good piano in an extremely good hall. The one in the comparison also has huge dynamic contrast, which makes the testing a bit more comprehensive.




Re: Pianoteq 5 [Re: scorpio] #2288017
06/10/14 10:04 AM
06/10/14 10:04 AM
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Austria, EU
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My guess, 2nd is PT5.
The first sounds a bit muffled to me, the second much brighter, to the extend, it sometimes is ringing in my ears.

Re: Pianoteq 5 [Re: scorpio] #2288043
06/10/14 11:23 AM
06/10/14 11:23 AM
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 268
Swabia
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Cmin Offline
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"Ideal Piano" has been mentioned before. Now what would that be? One thing for sure it would be boring. Not just that we would have nothing to complain about, but it would always sound the same. And what is ideal for one is definitely not ideal for the other.

Following this thread, I noticed that a lot of "critics" aren't quite aware (or don't know) what they are looking for and contradict each other in certain points.
Firstly, if you use cheap headphones or mediocre speakers, please do not judge PT or any other piano simulation. That would be like tasting wine with a stuffed nose.
Secondly, when you use a DP please set the velocity curves in PT appropriately. It makes a world of a difference and if it is set wrong it may sound bad.
Thirdly, what are you looking for or expecting from a piano simulation? "It should sound real?" What is "real"? Should it sound like an acoustic when you sit at the keys and play it? Should it sound like a CD recording in a concert hall and you're in the audience? Should it sound as if your sitting five meters from the player?
All this makes a HUGE difference in what you're looking for.

Don't forget: Pianoteq offers not just Sound Recording and Binaural as output settings, but also plain Stereophonic and Monophonic. Sometimes these are more appropriate for certain instances.


Cheers,
Lenny

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
FP-80, synths, guitars, mics, MBP, interfaces, Voicelive 2, ableton, Pianoteq, nubert a-200
Re: Pianoteq 5 [Re: Cmin] #2288060
06/10/14 12:00 PM
06/10/14 12:00 PM
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 4,542
Pennsylvania
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Originally Posted by Cmin
Secondly, when you use a DP please set the velocity curves in PT appropriately. It makes a world of a difference and if it is set wrong it may sound bad.


And how do you know/find the "appropriate" setting for the velocity curve ?


Don

Kawai MP11SE, Edifier R1850DB Active Bookshelf Speakers, Yamaha HS8S Powered Subwoofer, SennHeiser HD 559 Headphones, Pianoteq and numerous other VSTs
Re: Pianoteq 5 [Re: Cmin] #2288066
06/10/14 12:10 PM
06/10/14 12:10 PM
Joined: Jun 2014
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PJ88 Offline
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Originally Posted by Cmin

Don't forget: Pianoteq offers not just Sound Recording and Binaural as output settings, but also plain Stereophonic and Monophonic. Sometimes these are more appropriate for certain instances.


What exactly is the difference between sound recording and stereophonic? That's something I haven't quite figured out or read about. I thought most sound recordings are stereo (except surround of course).

Re: Pianoteq 5 [Re: scorpio] #2288088
06/10/14 12:37 PM
06/10/14 12:37 PM
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dmd : I must admit it is a bit of trial and error. Using the velocity calibration gives you a pretty good starting point.

PJ88 : Sound recording gives you the opportunity to position up to 5 microphones in a virtual room in stereo or up to 5 outputs (surround).
Stereophonic uses no microphones and outputs a plain stereo signal.
Binaural simulates the actual hearing position of a virtual listener in stereo.

Last edited by Cmin; 06/10/14 12:41 PM.

Cheers,
Lenny

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
FP-80, synths, guitars, mics, MBP, interfaces, Voicelive 2, ableton, Pianoteq, nubert a-200
Re: Pianoteq 5 [Re: scorpio] #2288096
06/10/14 12:49 PM
06/10/14 12:49 PM
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PJ88 Offline
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I think Modartt is shooting themselves in the foot by not including properly tuned presets with the demo. Everything sounds so bad right out of the box. I have recorded a Steinway D (as a recordist, not a player) before and it sounded much better than PianoTeq's D4.

Having said that, I have to admit that after fiddling with mic positions and mic types and various other parameters, I was able to get a sound that I now find much more palatable. I'm sure I can get a sound that is workable for my purpose which is scoring for films.

Since I can only afford to buy one software piano at the moment, I probably will end up just getting PianoTeq for its tweakability and the various other cool sounds it can make. Its harpsichord is rather sweet.

Re: Pianoteq 5 [Re: Macy] #2288097
06/10/14 12:49 PM
06/10/14 12:49 PM
Joined: May 2014
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Originally Posted by Macy

The common myth that a sampled piano can't produce 127 (the MIDI resolution) unique loudness/timbre combinations is ignorance and/or marketing speak. Sample interpolation is present in all sampled pianos, it is only a matter of the quality of the execution.

Most of the claims cited above are just marketing. State-of- ......


Hey Macy. You make an excellent point. There is a lot of modeling that goes on in the sampled pianos as well.

I hear from some on this forum that P5 doesn't sound real. Some prefer the sampled pianos. Others have the privilege of owning expensive grand pianos. That's fine.

I've been A/B ing Pianoteq 5 and Ivory II American Steinway D all week, and Pianoteq sounds more real or at least feels more real to me.

I play pop music, and I took the Bluethner Daily preset and brightened it up just a little, and I'm so thrilled with how it sounds and how it feels. The K2 sometimes lacks depth in the midrange, and the D4 is very good, but I don't like it as much as the Bluethner now.

With Ivory II, I wasn't truly feeling it. I thought maybe there's limitations to how real a piano is going to sound through headphones (I have Sennheiser HD650s), and I have KRK Rokit 5 G3 monitors that I got on a Black Friday special for $100 each. I thought, maybe my speakers aren't good enough.

I bought Pianoteq 4.5 a few months ago, and I was kind of mad at myself, because it did sound artificial when I played chords with the damper down.

So I guess that you have to play the product and make a decision based on that and not on theories of why the sampled piano is better because of more GB's and the modeled piano is better because of more complex algorithms.


Roland FP-90; Pianoteq 6 + many add-ons; 2 Yamaha HS8s; ATH-M50X and Samson SR850 headphones; Xenyx Q802USB interface. 2; I make a living playing a Yamaha PSR-S970 with FBT Maxx 2a's, Crowne Headset Mic. I also play guitar.
Re: Pianoteq 5 [Re: dmd] #2288111
06/10/14 01:28 PM
06/10/14 01:28 PM
Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 246
france
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france
Originally Posted by dmd
Originally Posted by Cmin
Secondly, when you use a DP please set the velocity curves in PT appropriately. It makes a world of a difference and if it is set wrong it may sound bad.


And how do you know/find the "appropriate" setting for the velocity curve ?


I don't use PTQ, but I have seen that :

There is a "keyboard velocity curves" forum section :
http://www.forum-pianoteq.com/viewforum.php?id=10
People discuss this tuning, and you find some consensus proposal by keyboard kind (roland, kawai, yamaha, casio, etc).

I think, I have seen in the dPTQ emo, a tutorial/tool that capture your outputs from you playing on instruction on your keyboard (strike the more pianissimo you can, then the more fortissimo, etc).

But a more advanced user can correct me if I mistake...

Re: Pianoteq 5 [Re: Cmin] #2288114
06/10/14 01:34 PM
06/10/14 01:34 PM
Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 246
france
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zack! Offline
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france
Originally Posted by Cmin
"Ideal Piano" has been mentioned before. Now what would that be? One thing for sure it would be boring. Not just that we would have nothing to complain about, but it would always sound the same. And what is ideal for one is definitely not ideal for the other.

Following this thread, I noticed that a lot of "critics" aren't quite aware (or don't know) what they are looking for and contradict each other in certain points.
Firstly, if you use cheap headphones or mediocre speakers, please do not judge PT or any other piano simulation. That would be like tasting wine with a stuffed nose.
Secondly, when you use a DP please set the velocity curves in PT appropriately. It makes a world of a difference and if it is set wrong it may sound bad.
Thirdly, what are you looking for or expecting from a piano simulation? "It should sound real?" What is "real"? Should it sound like an acoustic when you sit at the keys and play it? Should it sound like a CD recording in a concert hall and you're in the audience? Should it sound as if your sitting five meters from the player?
All this makes a HUGE difference in what you're looking for.

Don't forget: Pianoteq offers not just Sound Recording and Binaural as output settings, but also plain Stereophonic and Monophonic. Sometimes these are more appropriate for certain instances.

Yes, I think this is really an important feature (with room reverb), and making recordings position something you can tune, is really great. I don't have real experience of this, but frome a theoritical point of view, always thought it was key and really helping to give "liveliness" and "spatial presence" to synthetic sound.
Edit : something that is really an issue with entry/mid level DP (with default recording position and basic looped samples with "broken" stereophonic pan).

Last edited by zack!; 06/10/14 01:41 PM.
Re: Pianoteq 5 [Re: Cmin] #2288120
06/10/14 02:02 PM
06/10/14 02:02 PM
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 297
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stamkorg Offline
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Originally Posted by Cmin
"Ideal Piano" has been mentioned before. Now what would that be? One thing for sure it would be boring. Not just that we would have nothing to complain about, but it would always sound the same. And what is ideal for one is definitely not ideal for the other.


That is why I proposed on the Pianoteq forum that the team works on an option that intoduces a minimal detuning each day, day after day, to lead to a clearly bad tuning after +/- 1 year, as it is on a real piano. You could be able to "retune" the piano with one click to its initial state when you hear that it is too out of tune for you.
But that has make a lot of people laugh there help


Last edited by stamkorg; 06/10/14 02:08 PM.
Re: Pianoteq 5 [Re: stamkorg] #2288145
06/10/14 03:17 PM
06/10/14 03:17 PM
Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 246
france
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france
Originally Posted by stamkorg

That is why I proposed on the Pianoteq forum that the team works on an option that intoduces a minimal detuning each day, day after day, to lead to a clearly bad tuning after +/- 1 year, as it is on a real piano. You could be able to "retune" the piano with one click to its initial state when you hear that it is too out of tune for you.
But that has make a lot of people laugh there help


Did you notice the "condition" slider [Mint .. Worn] above the PTQ keyboard ? And also the "random" button customization ?

Re: Pianoteq 5 [Re: zack!] #2288158
06/10/14 03:40 PM
06/10/14 03:40 PM
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Posts: 297
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Hello, no I only have the Stage version.
But then again, if I am not wrong the condition and random levels are fix.

Re: Pianoteq 5 [Re: stamkorg] #2288199
06/10/14 05:33 PM
06/10/14 05:33 PM
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 4,909
Richmond, BC, Canada
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Charles Cohen Offline
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Originally Posted by stamkorg
. . .

That is why I proposed on the Pianoteq forum that the team works on an option that intoduces a minimal detuning each day, day after day, to lead to a clearly bad tuning after +/- 1 year, as it is on a real piano. You could be able to "retune" the piano with one click to its initial state when you hear that it is too out of tune for you.
But that has make a lot of people laugh there help



One more step:

. . . Before you click the "reset" button,
. . . you must pay Pianoteq for a tuning !!! <g>

_That_ would be realistic.<g>

The "Stage" version _does_ have the "Condition" slider. Very interesting for honky-tonk blues.

The slider is quite sensitive. It goes quickly from "perfect" to "my dog is howling". Somewhere in-between is a nice "old piano" sound.

. Charles




. Charles
---------------------------
PX-350 / microKorg XL+ / Pianoteq / Lounge Lizard / Korg Wavedrum / EV ZXA1 speaker
Re: Pianoteq 5 [Re: Cmin] #2288209
06/10/14 05:54 PM
06/10/14 05:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Cmin
"Ideal Piano" has been mentioned before. Now what would that be? One thing for sure it would be boring. Not just that we would have nothing to complain about, but it would always sound the same. And what is ideal for one is definitely not ideal for the other.


"Ideal" as in "DESIGN IDEAL" i.e. what the designer INTENDED the builder to actually "Build" - not what they finished up with as a result of material inconsistencies, manufacturing tolerances and compromises.
THOSE are why no two pianos of brand/model X/Y are the same.
However hard they try manufacturers can NOT build the design ideal - though they DO TRY.

There is no reason to believe that it would be "dull" or in any way boring.


Last edited by R_B; 06/10/14 08:13 PM.
Re: Pianoteq 5 [Re: Charles Cohen] #2288218
06/10/14 06:18 PM
06/10/14 06:18 PM
Joined: Sep 2011
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Portugal
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toddy Offline
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Originally Posted by Charles Cohen
[
The "Stage" version _does_ have the "Condition" slider. Very interesting for honky-tonk blues.

The slider is quite sensitive. It goes quickly from "perfect" to "my dog is howling". Somewhere in-between is a nice "old piano" sound.

. Charles


Thanks for reminding us about this parameter - it's one of the most intriguing on Pianoteq. I agree it's very sensitive, but I'd also say it's a great deal more subtle than the usual honky-tonk procedure - which is a detune or delay-line of a common and primative type. This mint-worn slider, on the other hand, really does seem to bring on an attack of mildew and eventually warps the frame out of shape. Great stuff!


Roland HP 302 / Samson Graphite 49 / Akai EWI

Reaper / Native Instruments K9 ult / ESQL MOR2 Symph Orchestra & Choirs / Lucato & Parravicini , trumpets & saxes / Garritan CFX lite / Production Voices C7 & Steinway D compact

Focusrite Saffire 24 / W7, i7 4770, 16GB / MXL V67g / Yamaha HS7s / HD598
Re: Pianoteq 5 [Re: PJ88] #2288371
06/11/14 05:47 AM
06/11/14 05:47 AM
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Originally Posted by PJ88
I made a couple of demos. One using a cheap Steinway D sample. The other is PT 5 D4 Player Clean. Added the same kind and same amount of reverb. Could you tell which one is the PT 5?

Mozart excerpts

EDIT: Not my playing. Just renders of a MIDI file from http://www.piano-midi.de/mozart.htm


Mozart 1 was Steinway D that comes with GarageBand latest version. I didn't know until yesterday that the piano in GarageBand is actually quite usable.

Mozart 2 was PT5. I think the giveaway other than the sound was the missing C# in the right hand because if the demo restrictions.

To my ears, both sounded fake at different places. The narrow stereo in PT5 is really bad microphone setting and stereo width value.

Re: Pianoteq 5 [Re: scorpio] #2325504
09/08/14 07:57 PM
09/08/14 07:57 PM
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I've recently purchased P5 , I did have EWQL GOLD but trying to get the software working drives me crazy . Don't forget you also need a decent PC rig to run it properly . But the sound is fantastic nonetheless .

What I really like about P5 is thatís its extremely simple to use , basic interface , software takes up hardly any space . In regards to the sound , I think itís good enough for what I need . Then again I haven't tested any other apart from EWQL

I'd really like to give Ivory 2 ago but thereís no demo , and I really don't want to fork out several hundred dollars just to try.
Wish more piano VST companies have demoís available like P5 .


Casio PX850
Re: Pianoteq 5 [Re: scorpio] #2355746
11/28/14 10:24 AM
11/28/14 10:24 AM
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Hmmm.... 30% off upgrades, e.g. stage to standard, standard to pro - black Friday "deal".

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