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I don't think it's as exclusionary as you think.

I like the direction its going so far. There is a lot of polyphony in Rachmaninoff's music (and I happen to working on Op 23 5).

More stormbraining: (y'all please comment yea or nay):

I want to play the arrangement by Egon Petri of the Bach Choral Prelude, "I Step Before the Throne, Lord"... (should pass muster as contrapuntal.)

I have a Manuel Ponce "Prelude and Fugue on a Theme by Handel" which is a bit more big chord and bass boomy, a la Busoni, (ergo perhaps not a winner for Poly), but it's by a less known composer who I think could merit some exposure here.

Ponce also has a Prelude and Fugue on a theme by Bach, for the Left Hand, which sounds more contrapuntal (contrapuntal harmony may occur more often in works for the left hand?). Not so big chord/bass boomy, and not as flashy as the Handel (ergo no recordings), but I think it's worth a go.

While googling found a paper: "Brahms’s Choral Music and His Journey to Contrapuntal Transcendence" by a Joseph Schubert.

http://www.calstatela.edu/sites/default/files/centers/Wagner/documents/Scubert.pdf

Very interesting history: Brahms took up a serious study of "early music" with the Schumanns in 1853 and studied counterpoint with the Schumanns and Joseph Joachim, with whom he exchanged weekly counterpoint exercises. Supposedly this influenced his later works, especially choral and chamber music. Mr. Schubert lists piano works between 1854 and 1860 which he feels have more contrapuntal flavor: the 4 ballades, Schumann variations, Piano Concerto No 1, but also says: "The use of counterpoint, particularly canonic writing, can be found in virtually all of Brahms’s instrumental compositions, and was therefore a part of his style from, at the latest, 1851." In this context, he mentions the Eb RHAPSODY (which I play). What say (Poly? ?) is this a tolerable counterpoint/fugue foil?

More brainsturming: Found this: Variationen: “Mein junges Leben hat ein End”, by Jan Pieterszon Sweelinck (1562–1621) and it is very nice. This would be a "before Bach" counterpoint, history of, etc?

Re: Rachmaninoff. He has a (newly published?) Fugue in D minor, and the Bach violin Partita arrangement (wish I could play either but would take months++). My Bb prelude is not very counterpointy, however perhaps the D major prelude # 4 is (two intertwined voices, canonical)??

So I'm thinking Bach-Petri Choral Prelude (which would be enough), maybe Ponce: one of his "Preludes and Fugues" (leaning to the Left Hand), and something late: ie Brahms, Rachmaninoff, or (please please) a Chopin Etude. Would the c# min #4 Etude Wreck the Rectal???

Interesting! I'm working on Op. 23, No. 4 and No. 6.

Regards,

Well, none of those pieces suggested are fugues or canons, except for the fugue parts of the Ponce works, so only those would qualify for my suggestion, but then again we don't have to do this my way.

If we do decide to do it my way, however, I will be happy to assemble a large collection of fugues from all time periods, to pick from at our leisure.

Great! Will you be playing them in Victoria?

I hope so.

Regards,

Ooo, can you post that list? Then people can see if anything catches their interest. Whether or not we have 2 full hours of uninterrupted fuguehood and canonization.

Heather, if we're going the Fugue/Canon route, let me claim the following:

1 Maurice Ravel Prelude and Fugue from "Le Tombeau de Couperin" (1917)

2 Paul Schoenfield Intermezzi 1 and 3 from "Three Intermezzi" (2003). These are actually a Prelude and Fugue -- IMO quite beautiful and moving.

This would cover my 15 min segment.

Sounds good, Tim, although if we're adhering strictly to my idea, only the Fugues will be eligible, not the corresponding Preludes.

Heather, I'll get back to the list in about half an hour when I have more time.

Keep in mind this is by no means an exhaustive list, although it did take me 45 minutes to write.

Pre-Bach

Sweelinck
Fantasia Contraria
Hexachord Fantasia

Buxtehude
3 Fugues, BuxWV 174-176

Bach era

Bach
Too many to list. The 48 from the WTC, for starters, and there are dozens, if not hundreds, of miscellaneous organ fugues available in piano transcriptions. Then, there's anything from the Suites - same thing for Handel. Canon-wise, there are the 14 canons on the Goldberg ground - it would be very interesting if someone did that cycle. I could do it myself, if no one else. There are also the selections from the Musical Offering - some canon, some fugue - and of course the Art of Fugue.

Scarlatti
G minor fugue, K30

Classical

Mozart
C major fugue, K394
G minor fugue, K401

Clementi
3 Fugues, Opus 5

Beethoven
We could use the Eroica fugue - not really the Diabelli fugue. I doubt anyone's going to volunteer to play the Hammerklavier fugue. There are also assorted posthumously published fugues in the Hess catalogue.

Romantic

Reicha
36 Fugues, Opus 36

Schumann
4 Fugues, Opus 72
7 Fughettas, Opus 126

Chopin
Fugue in A minor

Brahms
We could use the fugue from the Handel Variations...I'm pretty sure there are also organ fugues in piano transcription.

Reger
Fugue from the Telemann Variations
Fugue from the Bach Variations
111 Canons in Two and Three Parts (quite a bit of material there!)
Fughetta, Opus 44/8

Scriabin
Fugue in E minor
Canon in D minor

Rachmaninoff
Canon in E minor

Contemporary

Shostakovich
24 fugues from Opus 87

Barber
Finale of the Piano Sonata

Polyphonist
Fugue in B minor

And all that only scratches the surface.

What do you think?

Now that Tim and doctor S have posted these latest suggestions and armed with these extra ideas from Polyphonist I am also liking the idea of canons/fugues as an anchor for the recital, as long as it doesn't prevent other things from being played as well.

We could split the recital into two halves, one being all canons and fugues and the other being, perhaps, counterpoint-themed pieces mixed with miscellaneous. Would that make everyone happy?

And there was me thinking a good compromise leaves everyone *unhappy*
Xxx

Trust you to think something like that.

Well, if you feel like making fugues the theme, I can probably get the one in C minor from WTC I up to a listenable standard :P I remember dropping it, however, because I could never figure out when to bring out the 2nd counter-subject.

If the 4th french suite qualifies as being good counterpoint (it is sometimes canonic as well, think gavotte and gigue. Actually a lot of it is ), I'd be more than happy to work on it. As for the Rach stuff, I think it's a great idea. Lots of times the reason I love Rach is due to the polyphony and inner voices.

Yikes, fugues are the bane of my existence. I've somewhat shot myself in the foot with this one. I typically avoid fugues at any and all possible times.

Oh well, I do have to say that 2 hours of fugues and cannons is a rather ridiculous program in my opinion. Although I'm not opposed to having a program centering around fugues, cannons, and polyphonically rich music, I think great care should be given not to make a program that gives the listeners a musical stomach ache due to the richness.

I wouldn't put it quite so strongly but it seems to me that something so focused and specialized (and it is!) should be reserved for perhaps a later edition of this new feature of the site, after it's been rolling for a while and has established itself and when maybe a bit of "spice" is needed, rather than the inaugural one. But the more modest version of this that was initially discussed -- i.e. contrapuntal works alternating with others -- seems like it could work great on all counts.

Ok, lol, maybe not quite so strong. When one considers the fact that one isn't being subjected to sitting through the entire program at once, then it's feasible. I just can't imagine going to a live recital with such a program.

I do think half a program of fugues and cannons can work in this instance. I do also think that the latter idea you mentioned, Mark, is a far better one.