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Re: Pianoteq 5 [Re: 8 Octaves] #2286455 06/06/14 04:51 AM
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Originally Posted by 8 Octaves
Originally Posted by 8 Octaves
I played something I'm learning into Pianoteq 5, saved the mid file and rendered both D4 and K2: https://soundcloud.com/8octaves

You could hear the Pianoteq 5 sound at better than 128-bit MP3 if you download the wav file. I haven't finish learning this piece, so don't be too harsh.


All right for the ultimate comparison, I have uploaded me playing the same piece as before on my grand piano (Yamaha C3X). Again I've made the WAV file available for download. This should give you a good idea of Pianoteq 5 against a good standard piano tuned less than a month ago. No edits were made in the recording, just one quick run-through. Same link as before: https://soundcloud.com/8octaves

If you guys want to hear this same thing from software sampled piano, I could upload that, but at this point I think we're all tired of me on Stözel.


They all sounded darned good to me . . . .nice and crisp, a bit better than what you`d normally get on an acoustic . . .


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Re: Pianoteq 5 [Re: scorpio] #2286533 06/06/14 09:24 AM
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Still not convinced.

And better than an acoustic? Not to my ears. I'm still not happy with its artificiality.

Re: Pianoteq 5 [Re: scorpio] #2286537 06/06/14 09:29 AM
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The live recording sounds good. How did you record the CX3?


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Re: Pianoteq 5 [Re: scorpio] #2286586 06/06/14 11:33 AM
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I am convinced.


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Re: Pianoteq 5 [Re: scorpio] #2286617 06/06/14 01:11 PM
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Depends on the point of comparison since "acoustic" covers a rather gigantic range of instrument sound/tone/feel/etc.

If you say Pianoteq D4 does not sound like a Steinway D, well of course it doesn't. It's not a Steinway D -- it's simply a computer model based on some of the characteristics.

If you say Pianoteq does not sound like any acoustic piano ever made through history, I'd be skeptical of that claim but I don't have the time to listen to pianos non-stop to try to find a match.

If you say Pianoteq sounds worse than any acoustic piano ever made throughout history, I can point to various firewood-quality practice acoustics where my kids are taking piano lessons as direct counterpoints.

Re: Pianoteq 5 [Re: MossySF] #2286629 06/06/14 01:33 PM
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Originally Posted by MossySF
Depends on the point of comparison since "acoustic" covers a rather gigantic range of instrument sound/tone/feel/etc.

If you say Pianoteq D4 does not sound like a Steinway D, well of course it doesn't. It's not a Steinway D -- it's simply a computer model based on some of the characteristics.

If you say Pianoteq does not sound like any acoustic piano ever made through history, I'd be skeptical of that claim but I don't have the time to listen to pianos non-stop to try to find a match.

If you say Pianoteq sounds worse than any acoustic piano ever made throughout history, I can point to various firewood-quality practice acoustics where my kids are taking piano lessons as direct counterpoints.


These are good points. I think many critics of Pianoteq subconsciously compare the Pianoteq sounds to the finest acoustic piano they have ever heard or imagined they have heard.

Yes, it falls short of perfection but guess what ... so do most acoustic pianos. At least, the ones I have played.



Don

Kawai MP11SE, Focal Professional CMS 40 near-field monitors, Yamaha HS8S Powered Subwoofer, SennHeiser HD 559 Headphones, Pianoteq and numerous other VSTs (Seldom Used)
Re: Pianoteq 5 [Re: toddy] #2286639 06/06/14 02:00 PM
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Originally Posted by toddy
The live recording sounds good. How did you record the CX3?


I place the Blue Yeti Pro mic 4 or 5 inches above the strings, set mic to stereo mode, gain knob at 9 o'clock and recorded to my MacBook set to 24-bit 96,000 Hz for the mic input running Audacity at 32-bit 96,000 Hz.

I deleted the dead space from the beginning and end of the recording and saved the project out to a 16-bit 44,100 Hz WAV. No leveling, no compression, took about 5 minutes total including playing.

Re: Pianoteq 5 [Re: scorpio] #2286645 06/06/14 02:14 PM
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Originally Posted by scorpio
I am convinced.

Same for me.
Listened MP3, then downloaded WAV, and checked again.
It is very close and realistic for me (starting to worry about my own earing ability after some very doubtful comments).
Other opinions ?

Last edited by zack!; 06/06/14 02:47 PM.
Re: Pianoteq 5 [Re: dmd] #2286652 06/06/14 02:25 PM
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I assume this is true ...
Originally Posted by dmd
I think many critics of Pianoteq subconsciously compare the Pianoteq sounds to the finest acoustic piano they have ever heard or imagined they have heard.
But I don't count myself among those. I'm comparing Pianoteq with my (many) other software pianos. And I like the latter much more.

There are plenty of poor-sounding sampled pianos, but those that I use are among the better ones: Vintage D, Ivory Steinway/Bosendorfer/Fazioli, and Kawai EX Pro. These sound more real to me because they are just that: real recorded pianos.

Pianoteq still can't compare. Maybe someday ...

Re: Pianoteq 5 [Re: MacMacMac] #2286688 06/06/14 03:52 PM
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Originally Posted by MacMacMac
I'm comparing Pianoteq with my (many) other software pianos. And I like the latter much more.


I do agree with that.

However, it is getting much closer ... to the point where if I were in to a special type of piano sound (i.e. honky-tonk, ragtime, etc ..) there may be a place for the Pianoteq sound.

Actually, and I have indicate this in other threads ...

I do not find either (sampled or modeled) sounds good enough to stand as my only piano sound. I have to blend my ES7 Concert Grand with it to give the sound a sense of coming from inside my piano.


Don

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Re: Pianoteq 5 [Re: 8 Octaves] #2286725 06/06/14 05:29 PM
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Originally Posted by 8 Octaves
Originally Posted by toddy
The live recording sounds good. How did you record the CX3?


I place the Blue Yeti Pro mic 4 or 5 inches above the strings, set mic to stereo mode, gain knob at 9 o'clock and recorded to my MacBook set to 24-bit 96,000 Hz for the mic input running Audacity at 32-bit 96,000 Hz.

I deleted the dead space from the beginning and end of the recording and saved the project out to a 16-bit 44,100 Hz WAV. No leveling, no compression, took about 5 minutes total including playing.


Very informative, thanks 8 Octaves. The Blue Yeti Pro seems very versatile indeed - stereo/ mono, various patterns, analogue and digital output. And it's worked really well with your piano.

PT 5 also sounds great - but lacking a certain subtlety of character. Good for blending, I think. Their tines and reed selection is the best I've heard, I must say (though the likes of Nord and the best stage pianos may be as good).


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Re: Pianoteq 5 [Re: MacMacMac] #2286874 06/07/14 03:35 AM
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Originally Posted by MacMacMac
There are plenty of poor-sounding sampled pianos, but those that I use are among the better ones: Vintage D, Ivory Steinway/Bosendorfer/Fazioli, and Kawai EX Pro. These sound more real to me because they are just that: real recorded pianos.


That's a perfectly OK stance to take. You want the exact tone of XYZ piano so samples will do that the best. However, "match" would then be the more accurate word instead of "real". Vintage D matches the tone of a Steinway D much better than Pianoteq D4 -- no way anybody can argue with that.

That's because the word "real" implies something beyond matching just the tone where every nuance of a specific physical piano is reproduced. At this time, nothing digital comes close -- tone for modelled pianos, response for sampled (see DPBSD thread where only Pianoteq & V-Piano passed all the tests).

For me, the top goal is practice for me and my kids. Pianoteq feels harder to play well -- especially the new PT5 K2 model. I'm constantly hitting bad notes with Pianoteq -- pressing too hard (random sharp notes), pressing too soft (no sound), not pressing all chord keys with the same velocity, etc. It's especially noticeable trying to get a consistent sound when repeating passages where sympathetic resonance should ring out. In this sense, Pianoteq matches reality better because the typical sample-based DP is easier to play well compared to an acoustic. I don't yet have the years of muscle memory so the direct response I get from Pianoteq on poor playing is very helpful.

Last edited by MossySF; 06/07/14 03:37 AM.
Re: Pianoteq 5 [Re: MossySF] #2286922 06/07/14 08:46 AM
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Actually, I don't need the exact tone of XYZ piano. I just want something that sounds good to me.
Originally Posted by MossySF
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
There are plenty of poor-sounding sampled pianos, but those that I use are among the better ones: Vintage D, Ivory Steinway/Bosendorfer/Fazioli, and Kawai EX Pro. These sound more real to me because they are just that: real recorded pianos.
You want the exact tone of XYZ piano so samples will do that the best.
Quote
However, "match" would then be the more accurate word instead of "real".
Match has nothing to do with it.

Re: Pianoteq 5 [Re: 8 Octaves] #2286924 06/07/14 08:57 AM
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Originally Posted by 8 Octaves
Originally Posted by toddy
The live recording sounds good. How did you record the CX3?


I place the Blue Yeti Pro mic 4 or 5 inches above the strings, . . .


And I suppose that`s the best listening position for an acoustic piano? That'd be really funny to see!

And this I think is where the whole argument crashes. Now, anybody here should easily be able to understand where those two mics are to be placed.

Firmly attached to the player`s ears! Now who`s gonna be first?


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Re: Pianoteq 5 [Re: peterws] #2286928 06/07/14 09:16 AM
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Originally Posted by peterws
Firmly attached to the player`s ears! Now who`s gonna be first?


Done it! My 1981 biaural experiments. Must have been large GPO elastic bands - or white knicker elestic, maybe. The results were uncannily good, but you wouldn't want to record a piano that way, normally. Life is just not that simple.

Last edited by toddy; 06/07/14 09:18 AM.

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Re: Pianoteq 5 [Re: MacMacMac] #2287022 06/07/14 02:39 PM
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Originally Posted by MacMacMac
I assume this is true ...
Originally Posted by dmd
I think many critics of Pianoteq subconsciously compare the Pianoteq sounds to the finest acoustic piano they have ever heard or imagined they have heard.
But I don't count myself among those. I'm comparing Pianoteq with my (many) other software pianos. And I like the latter much more.

There are plenty of poor-sounding sampled pianos, but those that I use are among the better ones: Vintage D, Ivory Steinway/Bosendorfer/Fazioli, and Kawai EX Pro. These sound more real to me because they are just that: real recorded pianos.

Pianoteq still can't compare. Maybe someday ...


Huh ?
"These sound more real to me because they are just that: real recorded pianos."
That (to ME) sounds like it is your knowledge that they ARE recorded physical pianos that has convinced you of their "reality".

Where I think the modeled piano has the "opportunity" to succeed is as a closer approach to the IDEAL Steinway/Bosendorfer/Fazioli/Whatever i.e. not as a mere recording of a particular instance of brand/model X/Y but as what that designer and builder TRIED to achieve.
I know, I know, this devolves into - "we have come to love the artifacts (shortcomings) of each individual piano as its individual "character" and we KNOW that they are all different... on and on.

I am not arguing that Pianoteq is "there" yet, just that the modeling approach has the opportunity to get there.
IOW there is a there for modeled pianos to get to that is WAY BEYOND sampled pianos.

Re: Pianoteq 5 [Re: scorpio] #2287066 06/07/14 04:51 PM
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I think quite the opposite. Sampling starts with a real piano. Modeling tries to imitate a real piano. So the "opportunity" for modeling that you speak of lies merely in trying to be as good as the alternatives.

Right now the gap is substantial ... so in that sense there's lots of room for improvement. But there's no way to know whether the gap can be closed.

Re: Pianoteq 5 [Re: R_B] #2287073 06/07/14 05:20 PM
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Originally Posted by R_B
Where I think the modeled piano has the "opportunity" to succeed is as a closer approach to the IDEAL Steinway/Bosendorfer/Fazioli/Whatever i.e. not as a mere recording of a particular instance of brand/model X/Y but as what that designer and builder TRIED to achieve.
I know, I know, this devolves into - "we have come to love the artifacts (shortcomings) of each individual piano as its individual "character" and we KNOW that they are all different... on and on.


While I think it's true that modelling has the potential to go beyond what sampled pianos do, or are going to do in the foreseeable future, I'm wondering about the idea of an IDEAL piano.

The only possible ideal piano is one that already exists, isn't it? I'm just thinking that going all platonic about pianos and digital pianos might not get us far in practice. Pianos are as they are because of the real restraints and specific conditions throughout the ages. It's a magnificent achievement and a beautiful one, but tempered out of demands of the circumstances, and not built by aspiring to an ideal blueprint.

...which all seems to support Macmacmac's position. But I still think we can go farther with modelling than sampling....I think.


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Re: Pianoteq 5 [Re: toddy] #2287075 06/07/14 05:40 PM
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Originally Posted by toddy
Originally Posted by R_B
Where I think the modeled piano has the "opportunity" to succeed is as a closer approach to the IDEAL Steinway/Bosendorfer/Fazioli/Whatever i.e. not as a mere recording of a particular instance of brand/model X/Y but as what that designer and builder TRIED to achieve.
I know, I know, this devolves into - "we have come to love the artifacts (shortcomings) of each individual piano as its individual "character" and we KNOW that they are all different... on and on.


While I think it's true that modelling has the potential to go beyond what sampled pianos do, or are going to do in the foreseeable future, I'm wondering about the idea of an IDEAL piano.

The only possible ideal piano is one that already exists, isn't it? I'm just thinking that going all platonic about pianos and digital pianos might not get us far in practice. Pianos are as they are because of the real restraints and specific conditions throughout the ages. It's a magnificent achievement and a beautiful one, but tempered out of demands of the circumstances, and not built by aspiring to an ideal blueprint.

...which all seems to support Macmacmac's position. But I still think we can go farther with modelling than sampling....I think.


I had meant it in the design & manufacture sense, i.e. what it would be IF built EXACTLY to the design - each part EXACTLY matching the spec, with ZERO variation between parts (dimensions, weights, friction, whatever_all_else, etc.).
That would EXCEED the physical piano, since the latter is limited by material variability and manufacturing tolerances.

From what (little) I understand a LOT of work goes into matching/balancing parts to minimize variation.
In the model of the IDEAL piano there is no variation to take out, all keys have the same playing weight & friction, ALL hammers weigh EXACTLY what the design spec says, they strike at EXACTLY the correct velocity at EXACTLY the right strike point on the strings.
Too perfect ? too "sterile" ? OK, randomize in some variation.

As the old joke goes Wood and leather are OK and with a LOT of work you can make them look almost as good as plastics.
If you didn't KNOW they were only wood and leather you could ALMOST believe that they ARE plastic.

Last edited by R_B; 06/07/14 05:43 PM.
Re: Pianoteq 5 [Re: toddy] #2287079 06/07/14 05:50 PM
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Originally Posted by toddy
The only possible ideal piano is one that already exists, isn't it? I'm just thinking that going all platonic about pianos and digital pianos might not get us far in practice.


I don't think so... Take Supernatural, it's a piano that doesn't have a physical equivalent (some speculate it's a Yahama, others that it's a Steinway, maybe it's a blend, the fact is that there is no exact equivalent) and it's a pretty nice one, at least through headphones (and headphones that suit it...)
Concerning acoustic pianos, so far I have come to the conclusion that the ones I like best are Steinway D (and I seem to be not alone...), followed by Fazioli. If they manage to create a new and better one, I'll be very happy to make it my favorite piano.
I do think that modelling has a lot of potential (see pianoteq 5, v-piano and physis piano) and I hope pianoteq will get better than any sampled piano, so that I can save disk space....
Until then however I'll keep playing Ivory II most of the time...


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