Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2.7 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
What's Hot!!
Mr. PianoWorld - the full interview
-------------------
European Tour for Piano Lovers
JOIN US FOR THE TOUR!
--------------------
Posting Pictures on the Forums
-------------------
Forums RULES & HELP
-------------------
ADVERTISE on Piano World
Find a Professional
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers

Advertise on Piano World

(ad)
Piano Buyer Guide
Piano Buyer Spring 2018
ad
Pierce Piano Atlas


Who's Online Now
58 registered members (Buesch, AZNpiano, alexcawley, Alex C, Balezin Dmitry, akc42, Bett, 14 invisible), 979 guests, and 6 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Quick Links to Useful Piano & Music Resources
Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano & Music Accessories
*Live Piano Venues
*Music School Listings
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Directory/Site Map
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords & Scales
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 1 of 2 1 2
Setting Pins #2285406
06/03/14 10:29 PM
06/03/14 10:29 PM
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 223
C
curlyfries Offline OP
Full Member
curlyfries  Offline OP
Full Member
C
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 223
Does setting pins mean to tune a few mm sharp and approach counter clockwise the end tuning point? Is there something else that needs to be set?



(ad 800)
PTG Convention
PTG Convention 2018 Lancaster PA
Re: Setting Pins [Re: curlyfries] #2285415
06/03/14 10:45 PM
06/03/14 10:45 PM
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 9,230
France
O
Olek Offline
9000 Post Club Member
Olek  Offline
9000 Post Club Member
O
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 9,230
France
+- but turning the pin on reverse is avoided whenever possible.
The impression when listening is that we tune "high" but it is not the case, the "tuning" is done once the bottom of the pin have reached its position, allowing only the upper parts of the pin to be untwisted and then control the tension in the NSL

the NSL have to be set.

hopefully its tension is reflected in the pin. so NSL and pin are a couple.

Hope that helps


Professional of the profession.
Foo Foo specialist
I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
Re: Setting Pins [Re: curlyfries] #2285431
06/03/14 11:19 PM
06/03/14 11:19 PM
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 3,087
Montreal, Quebec, Canada
M
Mark Cerisano Offline
3000 Post Club Member
Mark Cerisano  Offline
3000 Post Club Member
M
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 3,087
Montreal, Quebec, Canada
The string is under about 150 lbs tension.

That tension induces a bend and a twist to the pin when it is at rest.

In the process of tuning, if you leave the pin bent or twisted at a different amount, it will eventually go back to where it was when you started tuning, i.e. bent and twisted under the 150lbs tension, and that will cause the pitch to change.

Leave the pin bent and twisted the way you found it, and that is setting the pin., But it doesn't necessarily mean stability. For that, the string needs to be set as well. (Non-Speaking Length Tension = Speaking Length Tension)

Your description of sharpening, then flattening, works sometimes, but it needs to be done by the proper amount.

Also, the length of the Non-Speaking-Length (NSL) will affect how much your flattening will affect the NSL tension, among other things.
See http://howtotunepianos.com/podcast-3/

Non-Speaking Length tension = Speaking Length Tension
That is an approximate description of what you need for stability.
Concert technicians may leave NSL tension slightly higher to counteract harder playing.

Consider your Sharpen/Flatten technique.
Pin turns
NSL tension rises
NSL tension > SL tension
Tension difference breaks friction at V-bar
Pin and string move together, with a constant Tension Differential (NSL tension - SL tension)
You go past pitch
Then flatten
Flattening creates NSL Tension < SL Tension
Then, when you are finished, the pin will bounce back a tiny bit
That tiny bit must equal the difference you created when flattening.
That difference is a function of: pin block tightness, pin height, NSL, how sharp you went, etc.
If the tiny bit is too much, pitch will rise
If the tiny bit is not enough, pitch will drop.

Stability is a complicated skill needed for every kind of piano tuning technique, aural or electronic.

I am working on a complete description of forces, elastic deformation, and a series of specific techniques described in full that will hopefully help people achieve stability easier.

It is my understanding that there is not any resource out there that explains stability fully and how to achieve it, with specific descriptions.

Can other techs please give me a bibliography of good resources on the subject, resources that have qualitative descriptions using forces and elastic deformations of the tuning pin and NSL, from an engineering point of view. Too many I've read are too vague. For example: Go sharp a bit, and then flatten.



Mark Cerisano, RPT, B.Sc.(Mech.Eng), Dip.Ed.(Music)
www.howtotunepianos.com
Re: Setting Pins [Re: curlyfries] #2285439
06/03/14 11:33 PM
06/03/14 11:33 PM
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 223
C
curlyfries Offline OP
Full Member
curlyfries  Offline OP
Full Member
C
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 223
Well, I keep reading it is important to set the pins. So the string tension is adjusted by turning the pin and striking the key at the same time? Setting the pins does not require any pushing of pin or any other adjustments but those to the string by pressing keys and turning pins, sharp and then flat (to put it coursely)?



(ad)
Piano & Music Accessories
piano accessories music gifts tuning and moving equipment
Re: Setting Pins [Re: curlyfries] #2285443
06/03/14 11:58 PM
06/03/14 11:58 PM
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 2,173
Old Hangtown California
G
Gene Nelson Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Gene Nelson  Offline
2000 Post Club Member
G
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 2,173
Old Hangtown California
Whenever I approach a piano tuning I first give a test blow combined with some pressure on the tuning pin to the flat side using the hammer.
If the pitch drops it is usually a sign that the pin was not previously set.


RPT
PTG Member
Re: Setting Pins [Re: curlyfries] #2285451
06/04/14 12:31 AM
06/04/14 12:31 AM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,758
Mexico City
Gadzar Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Gadzar  Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,758
Mexico City
IMHO, stability must be tested immediatly after tuning a string, not before.

I mean test blows are to be made as we tune each string.


Last edited by Gadzar; 06/04/14 12:33 AM.

Rafael Melo
Piano Technician
rafaelmelo@afinacionpianos.com.mx

Serving Mexico City and suburbs.

http://www.afinacionpianos.com.mx
Re: Setting Pins [Re: Mark Cerisano] #2285467
06/04/14 02:02 AM
06/04/14 02:02 AM
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 1,867
Scotland
Beemer Offline
Bronze Subscriber
Beemer  Offline
Bronze Subscriber
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 1,867
Scotland
Originally Posted by Mark Cerisano, RPT
The string is under about 150 lbs tension.

That tension induces a bend and a twist to the pin when it is at rest.

In the process of tuning, if you leave the pin bent or twisted at a different amount, it will eventually go back to where it was when you started tuning, i.e. bent and twisted under the 150lbs tension, and that will cause the pitch to change.

Leave the pin bent and twisted the way you found it, and that is setting the pin., But it doesn't necessarily mean stability. For that, the string needs to be set as well. (Non-Speaking Length Tension = Speaking Length Tension)

Your description of sharpening, then flattening, works sometimes, but it needs to be done by the proper amount.

Also, the length of the Non-Speaking-Length (NSL) will affect how much your flattening will affect the NSL tension, among other things.
See http://howtotunepianos.com/podcast-3/

Non-Speaking Length tension = Speaking Length Tension
That is an approximate description of what you need for stability.
Concert technicians may leave NSL tension slightly higher to counteract harder playing.

Consider your Sharpen/Flatten technique.
Pin turns
NSL tension rises
NSL tension > SL tension
Tension difference breaks friction at V-bar
Pin and string move together, with a constant Tension Differential (NSL tension - SL tension)
You go past pitch
Then flatten
Flattening creates NSL Tension < SL Tension
Then, when you are finished, the pin will bounce back a tiny bit
That tiny bit must equal the difference you created when flattening.
That difference is a function of: pin block tightness, pin height, NSL, how sharp you went, etc.
If the tiny bit is too much, pitch will rise
If the tiny bit is not enough, pitch will drop.

Stability is a complicated skill needed for every kind of piano tuning technique, aural or electronic.

I am working on a complete description of forces, elastic deformation, and a series of specific techniques described in full that will hopefully help people achieve stability easier.

It is my understanding that there is not any resource out there that explains stability fully and how to achieve it, with specific descriptions.

Can other techs please give me a bibliography of good resources on the subject, resources that have qualitative descriptions using forces and elastic deformations of the tuning pin and NSL, from an engineering point of view. Too many I've read are too vague. For example: Go sharp a bit, and then flatten.



Mark,

Metallurgy teaches us about metal creep. Have you found that pins eventually develop a permanent bend under the 150lb pressure? If it does surely it upsets the tuning process as when the pin is then turned "the bend" comes into play?

Ian


I'm all keyed up
2016 Bl├╝thner Model A
Re: Setting Pins [Re: curlyfries] #2285491
06/04/14 04:15 AM
06/04/14 04:15 AM
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 2,511
Suffolk, England
W
Withindale Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Withindale  Offline
2000 Post Club Member
W
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 2,511
Suffolk, England
Apparently creep becomes noticeable at temperatures above 30% of the melting point on an absolute scale such as Kelvin. On that basis pins might deform at over 200 C, roughly.


Ian Russell
Schiedmayer & Soehne, 1925 Model 14, 140cm
Ibach, 1905 F-IV, 235cm
Re: Setting Pins [Re: curlyfries] #2285504
06/04/14 05:37 AM
06/04/14 05:37 AM
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 3,087
Montreal, Quebec, Canada
M
Mark Cerisano Offline
3000 Post Club Member
Mark Cerisano  Offline
3000 Post Club Member
M
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 3,087
Montreal, Quebec, Canada
I have seen some bent pins, but it is rare. I always thought they were bent by a tuner using too much perpendicular force on the pin.

In the final pitch adjustment, the angle is very small, often only dealing with elastic deformation parallel to the string; a bent pin shouldn't be an issue.


Mark Cerisano, RPT, B.Sc.(Mech.Eng), Dip.Ed.(Music)
www.howtotunepianos.com
Re: Setting Pins [Re: curlyfries] #2285507
06/04/14 05:52 AM
06/04/14 05:52 AM
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 3,087
Montreal, Quebec, Canada
M
Mark Cerisano Offline
3000 Post Club Member
Mark Cerisano  Offline
3000 Post Club Member
M
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 3,087
Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Test blows are not a given. I personally don't use them for health reasons. They can cause ear, finger, hand, wrist, arm, shoulder, and neck pain.

I've had two hearing tests. One in 2000 and one in 2011; no appreciable loss.

I passed the RPT exam without using any test blows. It can be done.

The secret is After Tuning; controlling the amount of unbending and untwisting that happens to the pin after you reached your desired pitch.

You control that by controlling how much parallel bend you put into the pin during tuning. (Twisting and untwisting are a given for a particular pinblock, etc; you can't control that.)

The goal is NSL Tension = or slightly > SL Tension)

These are the techniques I use to affect where I leave NSL Tension:
Hammer Angle
Move and massage
Massage
Lean
Impact





Mark Cerisano, RPT, B.Sc.(Mech.Eng), Dip.Ed.(Music)
www.howtotunepianos.com
Re: Setting Pins [Re: curlyfries] #2285592
06/04/14 08:58 AM
06/04/14 08:58 AM
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 9,230
France
O
Olek Offline
9000 Post Club Member
Olek  Offline
9000 Post Club Member
O
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 9,230
France
A tuning lever is necessary to bend pins. the pulling force of the string does not in my opinion

I have bend a few pins in a vice and it an be done, they can be twisted also, but a lot of force is necessary even if the metal is somehow soft - easily impacted with a hammer for instance.

I only tested with Klinke or Biene pins, not the Japanese ones, an you will not see Chinese pins in my place. I only use accurate and good quality parts (pay them 30% more usually)- miking gives really very few pins that are not the expected diameter.


I appreciate the fact that what you do not state or experiment is simply dismissed as useless.

each pin quality have its level of torque, bend and elasticity. that couple with the type of block.

The same all along a given piano - more tense strings are creating more pressure and torque, it is perceived, but what is necessary is the appreciation of the balance of forces between the pin, pinblock and NSL.

Twisting purposely the pin allow to understand the amount of twist that can stay put, which is not that large.
That is how one can learn the very precise sensation of a "set" pin, a really secured setup. Checking the amount of bowing and torque is necessary to avoid too much torque reserve in the pin.
Another very important result is that you work then directly with the resistance and the elasticity of the string nsl and pin pinblock couple.
Having the pin twisted makes it rigid to the max, and you are then feeling the wire very precisely.(the sensation is the one of a direct manipulation of the sounding lenght without any intermediate zone damping or absorbing part of the tension.
Then tuning is as moving a micrometric knob. and you can easily brake or free the pin to control the motion at its bottom.


Indeed twist is not the most important thing to learn but it allows a stronger braking than if mostly the upper part of the pin is bowed in direction of the string, as often done to provide the upper tension in NSL. What need to be learned is the amount of twist induced by the wire, an when left in a "natural posture" allowing that twist to be just a bit high is keeping the pin tense at its max without resorting to strong bowing.

SO the block is absolutely protected from wear with that setup and tuning method.

When using bow only, the tuner tend to turn the pin while keeping it is a constrained/bowed posture, then on release this ad the wanted upper tension for the NSL.
That way of doing is often seen on Yamahas , I notice that technique used (strongly, apparently unless the large motion is due to the length of the lever) in the C lever video of Dan Levitan.

Absolutely valid for efficiency, but crushing the block is better avoided and can be replaced by using the pin twist.



Regards


Last edited by Olek; 06/04/14 09:49 AM.

Professional of the profession.
Foo Foo specialist
I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
Re: Setting Pins [Re: curlyfries] #2285644
06/04/14 11:33 AM
06/04/14 11:33 AM
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 2,173
Old Hangtown California
G
Gene Nelson Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Gene Nelson  Offline
2000 Post Club Member
G
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 2,173
Old Hangtown California
IMHO, stability must be tested immediatly after tuning a string, not before.

I mean test blows are to be made as we tune each string.


Hey Rafael,
I agree.
However - I have learned to use tuning hammer pressure and test blow prior to tuning for the reason to gather information about what I have to work with - it helps me with later pin setting.


RPT
PTG Member
Re: Setting Pins [Re: curlyfries] #2285650
06/04/14 11:53 AM
06/04/14 11:53 AM
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 9,230
France
O
Olek Offline
9000 Post Club Member
Olek  Offline
9000 Post Club Member
O
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 9,230
France
I would like to call them "tuning blows" as their intention is to trigger the string motion , be it for tuning or to see if the string is stable.

They are not really an efficient process to set the pin, it is better to learn to do so by other means.



Professional of the profession.
Foo Foo specialist
I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
Re: Setting Pins [Re: curlyfries] #2285661
06/04/14 12:18 PM
06/04/14 12:18 PM
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 1,577
Manywheres
A
A454.7 Offline
1000 Post Club Member
A454.7  Offline
1000 Post Club Member
A
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 1,577
Manywheres
A test-blow can be done anytime: its function is to help ascertain the piano's tuning stability. This is also important information to have before you start a tuning: if you bang on a note in the melodic area and it drops 20 cents, then you know you have some additional work to do in that area in order to create a stable tuning.

If you learn how to strike a key properly (i.e., via gravity, not tension, with all your parts in proper alignment), then physical issues are of no concern. The ears issues are always problematic, even at lower dynamics, so learn to ware earplugs...it takes some adjustment, but it's not a big deal.

"Setting the pin" means ensuring that the pin is not tilted backwards towards the pianist (i.e., the pin is set forward in a stable position)--twists and turns are not involved in said verbiage.


Masters degree in piano technology, +factory(s) training, etc., blah, blah, yada, yada, yada...[uncensored break-out in song]..."it don't mean a thing, if you aint got that swing."
--Klavierbaukuenstler des Erwachens--
Email: klavierbaukuenstler@gmail.com
Re: Setting Pins [Re: curlyfries] #2285673
06/04/14 12:29 PM
06/04/14 12:29 PM
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 9,230
France
O
Olek Offline
9000 Post Club Member
Olek  Offline
9000 Post Club Member
O
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 9,230
France
And one more that simply do not knows what he talk about.

I had a few doubts. Now I know ...

i think I'm gonna use my time elsewhere.

Have a great day


Professional of the profession.
Foo Foo specialist
I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
Re: Setting Pins [Re: curlyfries] #2285676
06/04/14 12:30 PM
06/04/14 12:30 PM
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 9,230
France
O
Olek Offline
9000 Post Club Member
Olek  Offline
9000 Post Club Member
O
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 9,230
France
And one more that simply do not knows what he talk about.

I had a few doubts. Now I know ...

i think I'm gonna use my time elsewhere.

Have a great day


Professional of the profession.
Foo Foo specialist
I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
Re: Setting Pins [Re: curlyfries] #2285682
06/04/14 12:42 PM
06/04/14 12:42 PM
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 2,173
Old Hangtown California
G
Gene Nelson Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Gene Nelson  Offline
2000 Post Club Member
G
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 2,173
Old Hangtown California
I would like to call them "tuning blows" as their intention is to trigger the string motion , be it for tuning or to see if the string is stable.

They are not really an efficient process to set the pin, it is better to learn to do so by other means.

Careful about making up rules.
Pin setting and fine tuning happen simultaneous.
What happens before is our personal technique - and likely all are different.

Last edited by Ken Knapp; 06/05/14 06:11 PM.
Re: Setting Pins [Re: curlyfries] #2285721
06/04/14 01:54 PM
06/04/14 01:54 PM
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 1,577
Manywheres
A
A454.7 Offline
1000 Post Club Member
A454.7  Offline
1000 Post Club Member
A
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 1,577
Manywheres
I don't think of "test-blows" as "tuning-blows." Tuning implies to me listening--listening at higher dynamics distorts the outcome of the tuning, so I don't listen to my test-blows, only to the consequence (i.e., did they stay or go where intended). Hence the term test-blow make more sense to me.

Tuning-blows are a viable technique as well, but it encourages newer-listeners to ignore the sound of the loud attack in order to tune the decay/sustain portion of the sound envelope. Well-rounded technicians need also to be able to tune via the attack/hold--this is important in noisy environments or when ensuring DOA unisons (dead-on-attack). As a general rule, when newer-technicians learn to listen through earplugs, they generally tend to focused more on the attack, as the decay/sustain is harder to hear. I find that that creates a more balanced pallet of technique from which to draw in the future.

As far as the OP question(s), "setting-the-pin" become necessary when a technician turns the pin sharp and unknowingly pulls the pin backwards (towards the pianist); there are many ways that technicians can avoid this situation, but if you don't: it is then necessary to then "set-the-pin" slightly forward into a stable position. That is the concept behind the verbiage.


Masters degree in piano technology, +factory(s) training, etc., blah, blah, yada, yada, yada...[uncensored break-out in song]..."it don't mean a thing, if you aint got that swing."
--Klavierbaukuenstler des Erwachens--
Email: klavierbaukuenstler@gmail.com
Re: Setting Pins [Re: curlyfries] #2285730
06/04/14 02:15 PM
06/04/14 02:15 PM
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 2,173
Old Hangtown California
G
Gene Nelson Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Gene Nelson  Offline
2000 Post Club Member
G
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 2,173
Old Hangtown California
As far as the OP question(s), "setting-the-pin" become necessary when a technician turns the pin sharp and unknowingly pulls the pin backwards (towards the pianist); there are many ways that technicians can avoid this situation, but if you don't: it is then necessary to then "set-the-pin" slightly forward into a stable position. That is the concept behind the verbiage.

Good way to point out how technique differs from person to person.
Jim Coleman Sr suggested tuning hammer position at 5 o'clock for uprights (where possible) or equivalent 11 o'clock for grands. Then when pulled sharp, the pin can be set at the same time you come to the correct pitch as well as moving the pin slightly forward into a stable position. There would then be no need to push the pin back to the flat side unless it were maybe for testing stability.

Last edited by Ken Knapp; 06/05/14 06:11 PM.

RPT
PTG Member
Re: Setting Pins [Re: curlyfries] #2285733
06/04/14 02:22 PM
06/04/14 02:22 PM
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 9,230
France
O
Olek Offline
9000 Post Club Member
Olek  Offline
9000 Post Club Member
O
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 9,230
France
tuning blows can be light or stronger depending of the need. they allow to tune the attack but as they are repeated the ear is less tired as the volume level is kept consistent.

Test blows are then +- useless, as you have to stop listening and control, I only use them if unsure, usually I know the string will not move from where I leave it.

Trading bending for a mix of bow and twist is an advanced technique, that ask for some training. Basically just to get conscious of how much the string is "torquing" the pin.


Professional of the profession.
Foo Foo specialist
I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
Re: Setting Pins [Re: A454.7] #2285762
06/04/14 03:40 PM
06/04/14 03:40 PM
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 1,131
Seattle
S
SMHaley Offline
1000 Post Club Member
SMHaley  Offline
1000 Post Club Member
S
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 1,131
Seattle
Originally Posted by A443
A test-blow can be done anytime: its function is to help ascertain the piano's tuning stability. This is also important information to have before you start a tuning: if you bang on a note in the melodic area and it drops 20 cents, then you know you have some additional work to do in that area in order to create a stable tuning. <snip>


I would postulate that if this is the case the "melodic area" will already be out of tune and test blows are of absolutely no value at this point. The likelihood of something slipping just due to the tech showing up to tune and doing a test blow is less than 1% IMO.


PTG Associate
AIO Regular Member
ASCAP
Pipe Organ Builder
Chief Instrument Technician, Director, Chancel Arts
Church Music Professional
AA Music Arts 2001, BM Organ, Choral 2005


Baldwin F 1960 (146256)
Zuckermann Flemish Single
Re: Setting Pins [Re: curlyfries] #2285776
06/04/14 04:10 PM
06/04/14 04:10 PM
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 1,577
Manywheres
A
A454.7 Offline
1000 Post Club Member
A454.7  Offline
1000 Post Club Member
A
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 1,577
Manywheres
Test-blows have negligible effects on the bass and middle section of the piano with regards to tuning and stability (i.e., once new strings have stretched); the melodic and descant sections of the piano, however, render frequently. In my experience, notes 'slipping due to the technician showing up to tune and doing a test-blow' happens nearly 100% of the time I wasn't the previous technician that did the tuning.

Rare is the case that a technician spends enough time to build-in stability into their tunings.

Test-blows should be used to 'know' what is going on in the system. If a string is stable, then no amount of pounding on it will change that fact. If I want to know, then I have to check. A 2 cent drop is completely different than a 20 cent drop...knowing is important.


Masters degree in piano technology, +factory(s) training, etc., blah, blah, yada, yada, yada...[uncensored break-out in song]..."it don't mean a thing, if you aint got that swing."
--Klavierbaukuenstler des Erwachens--
Email: klavierbaukuenstler@gmail.com
Re: Setting Pins [Re: curlyfries] #2285797
06/04/14 04:57 PM
06/04/14 04:57 PM
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 9,230
France
O
Olek Offline
9000 Post Club Member
Olek  Offline
9000 Post Club Member
O
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 9,230
France
I think also that test blows are unreliable. To know if the pin section of the indtrument is OK just putting the lever on the pin is enough. Even the noise it does is telling us if the pin is too free to move.

now for backscales only massaging or tapping at the bridge show if a large imbalance exists.



Professional of the profession.
Foo Foo specialist
I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
Re: Setting Pins [Re: Gene Nelson] #2285806
06/04/14 05:15 PM
06/04/14 05:15 PM
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 5,488
Melbourne, Australia
A
ando Offline
5000 Post Club Member
ando  Offline
5000 Post Club Member
A
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 5,488
Melbourne, Australia
Originally Posted by Gene Nelson
As far as the OP question(s), "setting-the-pin" become necessary when a technician turns the pin sharp and unknowingly pulls the pin backwards (towards the pianist); there are many ways that technicians can avoid this situation, but if you don't: it is then necessary to then "set-the-pin" slightly forward into a stable position. That is the concept behind the verbiage.

Good way to point out how technique differs from person to person.
Jim Coleman Sr suggested tuning hammer position at 5 o'clock for uprights (where possible) or equivalent 11 o'clock for grands. Then when pulled sharp, the pin can be set at the same time you come to the correct pitch as well as moving the pin slightly forward into a stable position. There would then be no need to push the pin back to the flat side unless it were maybe for testing stability.


Gene,

I asked you nicely last time to please stop inserting those long continuous lines in your posts - they cause the window to become very wide and makes it very hard to read, especially to people using small screen devices. You ignored my request and you continue to put them in pretty much every thread.

I'll ask you again - please stop this! It achieves nothing in the way of communication. It hurts the forum. Next time I see it (and I have no doubt I will), I'll report it to the forum moderators.

Last edited by Ken Knapp; 06/05/14 06:12 PM.
Re: Setting Pins [Re: curlyfries] #2285813
06/04/14 05:29 PM
06/04/14 05:29 PM
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 1,577
Manywheres
A
A454.7 Offline
1000 Post Club Member
A454.7  Offline
1000 Post Club Member
A
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 1,577
Manywheres
I use test-blows for their reliability/predictability: if I bang on a note--as hard as the most heavy-handed pianist ever would during the excitement of a concert--and the string does NOT displace in the slightest, then I know I've done my job and the string is stable.

It is a very simple concept: I don't ever want a pianist to bang the piano out-of-tune. I've learned to incorporate their banging into my tuning to help ensure stability. If the technician does not bang [like a pianist], then they will never know if the piano is really stable until the pianist does.

YES: there are many techniques that we can utilise to help ensure a more stable tuning--without banging as part of the technique--but, the final check should always be to bang on the note to see if it would displace during a performance. If it does, then the tuning process was not finished and the note should be corrected and made more stable.

You could also simply cross your fingers and hope that the pianist doesn't bang too hard...


Masters degree in piano technology, +factory(s) training, etc., blah, blah, yada, yada, yada...[uncensored break-out in song]..."it don't mean a thing, if you aint got that swing."
--Klavierbaukuenstler des Erwachens--
Email: klavierbaukuenstler@gmail.com
Re: Setting Pins [Re: ando] #2285818
06/04/14 05:34 PM
06/04/14 05:34 PM
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 1,577
Manywheres
A
A454.7 Offline
1000 Post Club Member
A454.7  Offline
1000 Post Club Member
A
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 1,577
Manywheres
Originally Posted by ando
Gene,I asked you nicely last time to please stop inserting those long continuous lines in your posts - they cause the window to become very wide and makes it very hard to read, especially to people using small screen devices. You ignored my request and you continue to put them in pretty much every thread.

I'll ask you again - please stop this! It achieves nothing in the way of communication. It hurts the forum. Next time I see it (and I have no doubt I will), I'll report it to the forum moderators.
oh....that is what is going on: I wondered why my screen was so elongated and I had to swipe left/right to read what was going on.


Masters degree in piano technology, +factory(s) training, etc., blah, blah, yada, yada, yada...[uncensored break-out in song]..."it don't mean a thing, if you aint got that swing."
--Klavierbaukuenstler des Erwachens--
Email: klavierbaukuenstler@gmail.com
Re: Setting Pins [Re: curlyfries] #2285823
06/04/14 06:07 PM
06/04/14 06:07 PM
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 223
C
curlyfries Offline OP
Full Member
curlyfries  Offline OP
Full Member
C
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 223
Thanks for all the thoughts, one and all. I have to think some more about this.
I made some errors already. If you can do it in your mind then you can do it
at the piano!



Re: Setting Pins [Re: A454.7] #2285825
06/04/14 06:09 PM
06/04/14 06:09 PM
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 5,488
Melbourne, Australia
A
ando Offline
5000 Post Club Member
ando  Offline
5000 Post Club Member
A
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 5,488
Melbourne, Australia
Originally Posted by A443
Originally Posted by ando
Gene,I asked you nicely last time to please stop inserting those long continuous lines in your posts - they cause the window to become very wide and makes it very hard to read, especially to people using small screen devices. You ignored my request and you continue to put them in pretty much every thread.

I'll ask you again - please stop this! It achieves nothing in the way of communication. It hurts the forum. Next time I see it (and I have no doubt I will), I'll report it to the forum moderators.
oh....that is what is going on: I wondered why my screen was so elongated and I had to swipe left/right to read what was going on.


Yes, Gene has some weird obsession with doing this. It's very annoying - and he ignores it whenever he is told to stop it.

Re: Setting Pins [Re: curlyfries] #2286217
06/05/14 04:38 PM
06/05/14 04:38 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,758
Mexico City
Gadzar Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Gadzar  Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,758
Mexico City
Yes. It is very annoying.

Gene please Stop doing that.

I can not read in my phone.

Even in my desktop it is annoying to have to scroll the screen.

Maybe we have to report this to moderators, all of us at the same time.

Last edited by Gadzar; 06/05/14 04:39 PM.

Rafael Melo
Piano Technician
rafaelmelo@afinacionpianos.com.mx

Serving Mexico City and suburbs.

http://www.afinacionpianos.com.mx
Re: Setting Pins [Re: curlyfries] #2286221
06/05/14 04:46 PM
06/05/14 04:46 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,758
Mexico City
Gadzar Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Gadzar  Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,758
Mexico City
I don't see the benefits of testing stability before tuning a string. Being where it may be, stable or not, I have to move it and put it at the right place. And then, with or without testing/tuning blows, I must ensure it will stay where I left it.



Rafael Melo
Piano Technician
rafaelmelo@afinacionpianos.com.mx

Serving Mexico City and suburbs.

http://www.afinacionpianos.com.mx
Page 1 of 2 1 2

Moderated by  Piano World 

Check Out Our Newsletter!
Our August 2018 Free Newsletter for Piano Enthusiasts is here now, check it out!
Piano World Newsletter
(ad)
Pianoforall
PianoForAll
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Midi based sight reading software suggestions
by dmcgeown. 08/17/18 05:12 AM
Korg SP-250 sounds only coming from headphones
by Chadley99. 08/16/18 10:33 PM
ABRSM piano guides
by alexcawley. 08/16/18 07:40 PM
Is my teacher pacing lessons to quickly?
by Avid. 08/16/18 05:55 PM
Baldwin SF-10 search & other info
by mypianos4evr. 08/16/18 05:52 PM
(ad)
Pianoteq
PianoTeq Steingraeber
(125ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
Forum Statistics
Forums40
Topics186,926
Posts2,739,294
Members90,786
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
(ad)
Accu-Tuner
Sanderson Accu-Tuner
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers


 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter |


copyright 1997 - 2018 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.1.1