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Re: Setting Pins [Re: A454.7] #2285762
06/04/14 02:40 PM
06/04/14 02:40 PM
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Posts: 1,131
Seattle
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SMHaley Offline
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Originally Posted by A443
A test-blow can be done anytime: its function is to help ascertain the piano's tuning stability. This is also important information to have before you start a tuning: if you bang on a note in the melodic area and it drops 20 cents, then you know you have some additional work to do in that area in order to create a stable tuning. <snip>


I would postulate that if this is the case the "melodic area" will already be out of tune and test blows are of absolutely no value at this point. The likelihood of something slipping just due to the tech showing up to tune and doing a test blow is less than 1% IMO.


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Re: Setting Pins [Re: curlyfries] #2285776
06/04/14 03:10 PM
06/04/14 03:10 PM
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A454.7 Offline
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Test-blows have negligible effects on the bass and middle section of the piano with regards to tuning and stability (i.e., once new strings have stretched); the melodic and descant sections of the piano, however, render frequently. In my experience, notes 'slipping due to the technician showing up to tune and doing a test-blow' happens nearly 100% of the time I wasn't the previous technician that did the tuning.

Rare is the case that a technician spends enough time to build-in stability into their tunings.

Test-blows should be used to 'know' what is going on in the system. If a string is stable, then no amount of pounding on it will change that fact. If I want to know, then I have to check. A 2 cent drop is completely different than a 20 cent drop...knowing is important.


Masters degree in piano technology, +factory(s) training, etc., blah, blah, yada, yada, yada...[uncensored break-out in song]..."it don't mean a thing, if you aint got that swing."
--Klavierbaukuenstler des Erwachens--
Email: klavierbaukuenstler@gmail.com
Re: Setting Pins [Re: curlyfries] #2285797
06/04/14 03:57 PM
06/04/14 03:57 PM
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Olek Offline
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I think also that test blows are unreliable. To know if the pin section of the indtrument is OK just putting the lever on the pin is enough. Even the noise it does is telling us if the pin is too free to move.

now for backscales only massaging or tapping at the bridge show if a large imbalance exists.



Professional of the profession.
Foo Foo specialist
I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
Re: Setting Pins [Re: Gene Nelson] #2285806
06/04/14 04:15 PM
06/04/14 04:15 PM
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ando Offline
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Originally Posted by Gene Nelson
As far as the OP question(s), "setting-the-pin" become necessary when a technician turns the pin sharp and unknowingly pulls the pin backwards (towards the pianist); there are many ways that technicians can avoid this situation, but if you don't: it is then necessary to then "set-the-pin" slightly forward into a stable position. That is the concept behind the verbiage.

Good way to point out how technique differs from person to person.
Jim Coleman Sr suggested tuning hammer position at 5 o'clock for uprights (where possible) or equivalent 11 o'clock for grands. Then when pulled sharp, the pin can be set at the same time you come to the correct pitch as well as moving the pin slightly forward into a stable position. There would then be no need to push the pin back to the flat side unless it were maybe for testing stability.


Gene,

I asked you nicely last time to please stop inserting those long continuous lines in your posts - they cause the window to become very wide and makes it very hard to read, especially to people using small screen devices. You ignored my request and you continue to put them in pretty much every thread.

I'll ask you again - please stop this! It achieves nothing in the way of communication. It hurts the forum. Next time I see it (and I have no doubt I will), I'll report it to the forum moderators.

Last edited by Ken Knapp; 06/05/14 05:12 PM.
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Re: Setting Pins [Re: curlyfries] #2285813
06/04/14 04:29 PM
06/04/14 04:29 PM
Joined: Apr 2012
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I use test-blows for their reliability/predictability: if I bang on a note--as hard as the most heavy-handed pianist ever would during the excitement of a concert--and the string does NOT displace in the slightest, then I know I've done my job and the string is stable.

It is a very simple concept: I don't ever want a pianist to bang the piano out-of-tune. I've learned to incorporate their banging into my tuning to help ensure stability. If the technician does not bang [like a pianist], then they will never know if the piano is really stable until the pianist does.

YES: there are many techniques that we can utilise to help ensure a more stable tuning--without banging as part of the technique--but, the final check should always be to bang on the note to see if it would displace during a performance. If it does, then the tuning process was not finished and the note should be corrected and made more stable.

You could also simply cross your fingers and hope that the pianist doesn't bang too hard...


Masters degree in piano technology, +factory(s) training, etc., blah, blah, yada, yada, yada...[uncensored break-out in song]..."it don't mean a thing, if you aint got that swing."
--Klavierbaukuenstler des Erwachens--
Email: klavierbaukuenstler@gmail.com
Re: Setting Pins [Re: ando] #2285818
06/04/14 04:34 PM
06/04/14 04:34 PM
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Originally Posted by ando
Gene,I asked you nicely last time to please stop inserting those long continuous lines in your posts - they cause the window to become very wide and makes it very hard to read, especially to people using small screen devices. You ignored my request and you continue to put them in pretty much every thread.

I'll ask you again - please stop this! It achieves nothing in the way of communication. It hurts the forum. Next time I see it (and I have no doubt I will), I'll report it to the forum moderators.
oh....that is what is going on: I wondered why my screen was so elongated and I had to swipe left/right to read what was going on.


Masters degree in piano technology, +factory(s) training, etc., blah, blah, yada, yada, yada...[uncensored break-out in song]..."it don't mean a thing, if you aint got that swing."
--Klavierbaukuenstler des Erwachens--
Email: klavierbaukuenstler@gmail.com
Re: Setting Pins [Re: curlyfries] #2285823
06/04/14 05:07 PM
06/04/14 05:07 PM
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 223
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curlyfries Offline OP
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Thanks for all the thoughts, one and all. I have to think some more about this.
I made some errors already. If you can do it in your mind then you can do it
at the piano!



Re: Setting Pins [Re: A454.7] #2285825
06/04/14 05:09 PM
06/04/14 05:09 PM
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 5,597
Melbourne, Australia
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ando Offline
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Originally Posted by A443
Originally Posted by ando
Gene,I asked you nicely last time to please stop inserting those long continuous lines in your posts - they cause the window to become very wide and makes it very hard to read, especially to people using small screen devices. You ignored my request and you continue to put them in pretty much every thread.

I'll ask you again - please stop this! It achieves nothing in the way of communication. It hurts the forum. Next time I see it (and I have no doubt I will), I'll report it to the forum moderators.
oh....that is what is going on: I wondered why my screen was so elongated and I had to swipe left/right to read what was going on.


Yes, Gene has some weird obsession with doing this. It's very annoying - and he ignores it whenever he is told to stop it.

Re: Setting Pins [Re: curlyfries] #2286217
06/05/14 03:38 PM
06/05/14 03:38 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,758
Mexico City
Gadzar Offline
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,758
Mexico City
Yes. It is very annoying.

Gene please Stop doing that.

I can not read in my phone.

Even in my desktop it is annoying to have to scroll the screen.

Maybe we have to report this to moderators, all of us at the same time.

Last edited by Gadzar; 06/05/14 03:39 PM.

Rafael Melo
Piano Technician
rafaelmelo@afinacionpianos.com.mx

Serving Mexico City and suburbs.

http://www.afinacionpianos.com.mx
Re: Setting Pins [Re: curlyfries] #2286221
06/05/14 03:46 PM
06/05/14 03:46 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,758
Mexico City
Gadzar Offline
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Mexico City
I don't see the benefits of testing stability before tuning a string. Being where it may be, stable or not, I have to move it and put it at the right place. And then, with or without testing/tuning blows, I must ensure it will stay where I left it.



Rafael Melo
Piano Technician
rafaelmelo@afinacionpianos.com.mx

Serving Mexico City and suburbs.

http://www.afinacionpianos.com.mx
Re: Setting Pins [Re: ando] #2286266
06/05/14 05:13 PM
06/05/14 05:13 PM
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,576
Pennsylvania
Ken Knapp Offline

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Originally Posted by ando


Gene,

I asked you nicely last time to please stop inserting those long continuous lines in your posts - they cause the window to become very wide and makes it very hard to read, especially to people using small screen devices. You ignored my request and you continue to put them in pretty much every thread.

I'll ask you again - please stop this! It achieves nothing in the way of communication. It hurts the forum. Next time I see it (and I have no doubt I will), I'll report it to the forum moderators.


I agree. Please stop those lines.


Ken

Hammond Organ Technician
Piano Torturer
Re: Setting Pins [Re: curlyfries] #2286272
06/05/14 05:22 PM
06/05/14 05:22 PM
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 582
Italy
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acortot Offline
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Italy
are we sure modern pins twist?

it seems strange to me.. has any scientific proof been published for this?

Perhaps it is the pin setting in the wood, which is much softer and prone to 'settling' after all that we must 'set' when tuning?

not sure.. I usually tune very old pianos where twisting may very well be a factor but the tuning pins used up until 1880 or so were very soft compared to the stuff I see today.. which seems incredibly hard by comparison


rhythm must be inborn - Alfred Cortot

An Article on the unusual makeup of original Pleyel hammers, during Chopin's lifetime:

http://acortot.blogspot.it/2012/07/pleyel-hammers-in-chopin-era-i-martelli.html

Max DiMario
Re: Setting Pins [Re: curlyfries] #2286279
06/05/14 05:36 PM
06/05/14 05:36 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,758
Mexico City
Gadzar Offline
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Mexico City
Of course they twist. Steel is elastic. Springs, which main function is to twist or flex are made of steel. Piano strings are made of steel, and they can vibrate because of steel's elasticity.



Rafael Melo
Piano Technician
rafaelmelo@afinacionpianos.com.mx

Serving Mexico City and suburbs.

http://www.afinacionpianos.com.mx
Re: Setting Pins [Re: curlyfries] #2286280
06/05/14 05:39 PM
06/05/14 05:39 PM
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 9,230
France
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Olek Offline
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if you use a vice and a dynamometer, a 70Kg force twist a Klinke pin pin 1.5 +- (in fact the dynanometer I have is of trigger type, so I can regulate the force applied) The lever of the dynamo-meter even turned more than 1.5 I lowered the number.

The holding in a block is also different as the pin is allowed to twist much more.

But the force is applied by a sort of tuning lever tip, not on one side as with a string.(I am may be wrong on that but I suppose the string coil is stuck on the pin - may be there is some elongation of wire around the pin when tuning but I doubt of that)



The twist is very small but perceived, and allows the force coming from the wire to be better distributed in the hole.

Old pins where in iron, they also can be twisted (I did) but this can be dangerous due to the type of metal and how it was made (by folding). Also old instruments that need to be tuned often due to iron strings and other things, do not really benefit of a super strong "pin setting" The tone is made cleaner and stronger, stability is way better, but when you need to tune again the manipulations are less easy than with a lighter pin setting.

As it you attained a very firm pin setting with a harpsichord, unlocking the pin is a loss of time, an I suggest that if the pin is stronger set, the less it is unlocked/re-locked the best it is.stronger setting mean some force involved.

It is mostly worth doing because the tone is really more present.


I did not notice iron pins where soft, possibly what you feel is more the block than the pin (the difference is difficult to perceive)

Modern stainless steel pins are soft (no much elasticity) but the ones I use are in steel somehow soft in fact, but they are springy enough when under stress.


Last edited by Olek; 06/06/14 02:03 AM.

Professional of the profession.
Foo Foo specialist
I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
Re: Setting Pins [Re: Olek] #2286294
06/05/14 06:08 PM
06/05/14 06:08 PM
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 5,597
Melbourne, Australia
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ando Offline
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Originally Posted by Olek

Modern stainless steel pins are soft (no much elasticity) but the ones I use are in steel somehow soft in fact, but they are springy enough when under stress.



That's tensile strength you are talking about. The soft pins would not be ideal because they would deform over time. Too-high tensile steel isn't good either because it can break. The pins you use must be quite high tensile, but not brittle - the best combination of strength, resilience and flexibility.

Re: Setting Pins [Re: curlyfries] #2286348
06/05/14 08:43 PM
06/05/14 08:43 PM
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Gene Nelson Offline
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No problem
Cannot recall any previous requests however.
Glad I read to the end of this thread or I would have missed it again.
A personal email could have had a bit less gratification but would have been more effective.
Hey Ken, its just connected dashes - plain text.
Are you certain it is the cause of stated screen issues?
I don't see it on my pc.


RPT
PTG Member
Re: Setting Pins [Re: Gene Nelson] #2286350
06/05/14 09:00 PM
06/05/14 09:00 PM
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,576
Pennsylvania
Ken Knapp Offline

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Originally Posted by Gene Nelson

Hey Ken, its just connected dashes - plain text.
Are you certain it is the cause of stated screen issues?
I don't see it on my pc.


Yes, I'm certain. I edited your posts and the problem went away.


Ken

Hammond Organ Technician
Piano Torturer
Re: Setting Pins [Re: Gene Nelson] #2286371
06/05/14 09:57 PM
06/05/14 09:57 PM
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 5,597
Melbourne, Australia
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ando Offline
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Originally Posted by Gene Nelson
No problem
Cannot recall any previous requests however.
Glad I read to the end of this thread or I would have missed it again.
A personal email could have had a bit less gratification but would have been more effective.
Hey Ken, its just connected dashes - plain text.
Are you certain it is the cause of stated screen issues?
I don't see it on my pc.


Gene, the attempts to point this out to you were "gratification" free. They were very polite and non-confrontational. I made 2 previous attempts, and others made attempts also. The fact that you fail to read posts which are addressed to you, quoting your name, in threads that you were actively participating in, should not be made into a short-coming of others. Of course people will respond to your posts on a forum - we had every right to expect you would see our posts addressing you. In any case, I'm glad the message has finally got through and my small screen won't be having headaches in future. No hard feelings, Gene.

Re: Setting Pins [Re: ando] #2286424
06/06/14 02:07 AM
06/06/14 02:07 AM
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 9,230
France
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Olek Offline
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Originally Posted by ando
Originally Posted by Olek

Modern stainless steel pins are soft (no much elasticity) but the ones I use are in steel somehow soft in fact, but they are springy enough when under stress.



That's tensile strength you are talking about. The soft pins would not be ideal because they would deform over time. Too-high tensile steel isn't good either because it can break. The pins you use must be quite high tensile, but not brittle - the best combination of strength, resilience and flexibility.


yes I wonder if that creep happens with some type of pins (stainless steel) as some Japanese ones, that are cheaper.

Cutting thru the pin show a much brilliant metal as stainless, it is just my deduction we do not really know what is the material used but they are too soft, I still have the box I bought once !


Professional of the profession.
Foo Foo specialist
I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
Re: Setting Pins [Re: curlyfries] #2286492
06/06/14 07:40 AM
06/06/14 07:40 AM
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 2,071
Conway, AR USA
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Joined: Mar 2009
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Originally Posted by LindaR
Does setting pins mean to tune a few mm sharp and approach counter clockwise the end tuning point? Is there something else that needs to be set?


Piano Tuning 101

Steel (of which tuning pins are made) is a
very elastic material. Though the pins are
embedded as deep as 11/ 4" in the pinblock
and have some support from the plate bushings,
they can bend enough to affect the
pitch of a string, and the torsion (which
could be termed "internal wind-up") can also
affect the pitch. You must learn to rotate the
pin, feeling the amount of twisting and bending
as you manipulate the lever. Any twisting
or bending is only temporary, and a string
that you tune by flexing the pin will go out
of tune as soon as the pin springs back to its
natural position. Because of the tight grip of
the pinblock and the slight flexing of the
pins, you must first turn each pin a little too
far and then ease it back to the position
where it will stay. Tuners call this procedure
setting the pins.


You must also learn how to set the same
amount of tension along the entire length of
the string. Each string passes from the tuning
pin across several bearing points. There is
friction at each bearing point. As you raise
the pitch of a string, you add tension to one
end. Imagine stretching a rubber band over a
small box and pulling on one end. That end
has much more tension than the center section,
because of the friction at the bearing
point at the edge of the box. The friction in
the rubber band example is greatly exaggerated,
but the same effect does occur to a
lesser extent in a piano. If you raise the pitch
of a string by turning the tuning pin in a single
motion, the string segment nearest the
tuning pin will have more tension than the
speaking segment. When you play the string
loudly, the hammer blow will equalize the
tension a little, causing the string to go
sharp. Conversely, if you lower the string
tension by turning the pin in one motion,
the segment nearest the tuning pin will have
less tension, and the string will go flat.
Therefore, you must play each note loudly
during each movement of the lever, to try to
equalize the string tension. Tune and play,
with increasingly smaller movements of the
lever, until the string remains in tune after
you play it loudly. Tuners call this procedure
setting the strings.

Excerpt from:

Piano servicing, tuning, and rebuilding for the professional, the student,
and the hobbyist
p219, by Arthur A. Reblitz


Bob W.
Piano Technician (Retired since 2006)
Conway, Arkansas
www.pianotechno.blogspot.com
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