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Damper resonance issue on CA95... calling MP11 / MP7 owners
#2285889 06/04/14 10:50 PM
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Could people with an MP11 or MP7 possibly do me a quick favour?

With the CA95 (and presumably the CA65) there seems to be a problem with the damper resonance on some notes, which "balloon" unrealistically when the pedal is pressed. It was described originally in point 3 of this post.

Please listen to the demo (direct link): in the first track the pedal is pressed after sounding the note, and in the second, the pedal is held and the note repeated.

Could you check if this is still a problem with the MP11 or MP7? I'm going to report it to Kawai UK, but I want to know if it's been fixed already in later models featuring the HI-XL sounds. It's not too noticeable on headphones, but on the CA95 it seems to resonate with the soundboard and sounds terrible - to the extent that I'm having to avoid using the Concert Grand tone in pieces with repeated F3 notes that use the pedal (which is quite a lot...) - or turn off Damper Resonance, which reduces the sound quality.

Steps to reproduce:

1. Select the Concert Grand sound

2. Go to Virtual Technician in PIANO section and set the Damper Resonance to 7

3. Play F3 (the first F below middle C) loudly, then press the sustain pedal. Does the volume increase as in the recording? Compare to adjacent notes.

4. Hold the sustain pedal and continuously play F3 loudly. Try varying the speed. Does the sound sometimes build up a bit like a foghorn? Try the adjacent E and G: is there a difference?

Thanks!

edit: video


Last edited by lolatu; 06/05/14 09:35 AM.

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Re: Damper resonance issue on CA95... calling MP11 / MP7 owners
lolatu #2285926 06/05/14 02:52 AM
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Originally Posted by lolatu
Could people with an MP11 or MP7 possibly do me a quick favour?

With the CA95 (and presumably the CA65) there seems to be a problem with the damper resonance on some notes, which "balloon" unrealistically when the pedal is pressed. It was described originally in point 3 of this post.

Please listen to the demo (direct link): in the first track the pedal is pressed after sounding the note, and in the second, the pedal is held and the note repeated.

Could you check if this is still a problem with the MP11 or MP7? I'm going to report it to Kawai UK, but I want to know if it's been fixed already in later models featuring the HI-XL sounds. It's not too noticeable on headphones, but on the CA95 it seems to resonate with the soundboard and sounds terrible - to the extent that I'm having to avoid using the Concert Grand tone in pieces with repeated F3 notes that use the pedal (which is quite a lot...) - or turn off Damper Resonance, which reduces the sound quality.

Steps to reproduce:

1. Select the Concert Grand sound

2. Go to Virtual Technician in PIANO section and set the Damper Resonance to 7

3. Play F3 (the first F below middle C) loudly, then press the sustain pedal. Does the volume increase as in the recording? Compare to adjacent notes.

4. Hold the sustain pedal and continuously play F3 loudly. Try varying the speed. Does the sound sometimes build up a bit like a foghorn? Try the adjacent E and G: is there a difference?

Thanks!


Confirmed on newly purchased MP11 in USA, it does the weird "WooooOOOOOoooOOOOOooo" thing as soon as the pedal is pressed. and there does seem to be a particular issue with F3. Damn, that's weird. My hypothesis is that when they recorded that particular note in the sampling session they goofed when they mixed it. I don't think a firmware update can fix that, but here's hoping.

James, any thoughts on this? Also, slightly OT, but do you have a pic of the instrument they used for the MP11/CA95 sampling? Is it a Shigeru EX? laugh

Last edited by Markarian; 06/05/14 02:57 AM.

2012 NY Steinway Model B | Kawai MP11 | Nord Stage 3 Compact | Moog Sub 37 | Behringer DeepMind 12 | Sequential Circuits Prophet 6 | Korg Prologue
Re: Damper resonance issue on CA95... calling MP11 / MP7 owners
lolatu #2285930 06/05/14 03:39 AM
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I reported this exact issue more than a year ago it was ultimately the reason (one of) why I returned the piano. It is very disappointing to hear that Kawai didn't fix that and, even worse, that it is present on new MP11s, which I consider buying:-(

Re: Damper resonance issue on CA95... calling MP11 / MP7 owners
lolatu #2285932 06/05/14 03:52 AM
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Originally Posted by lolatu
Could people with an MP11 or MP7 possibly do me a quick favour?

With the CA95 (and presumably the CA65) there seems to be a problem with the damper resonance on some notes, which "balloon" unrealistically when the pedal is pressed. It was described originally in point 3 of this post.

Please listen to the demo (direct link): in the first track the pedal is pressed after sounding the note, and in the second, the pedal is held and the note repeated.

Could you check if this is still a problem with the MP11 or MP7? I'm going to report it to Kawai UK, but I want to know if it's been fixed already in later models featuring the HI-XL sounds. It's not too noticeable on headphones, but on the CA95 it seems to resonate with the soundboard and sounds terrible - to the extent that I'm having to avoid using the Concert Grand tone in pieces with repeated F3 notes that use the pedal (which is quite a lot...) - or turn off Damper Resonance, which reduces the sound quality.

Steps to reproduce:

1. Select the Concert Grand sound

2. Go to Virtual Technician in PIANO section and set the Damper Resonance to 7

3. Play F3 (the first F below middle C) loudly, then press the sustain pedal. Does the volume increase as in the recording? Compare to adjacent notes.

4. Hold the sustain pedal and continuously play F3 loudly. Try varying the speed. Does the sound sometimes build up a bit like a foghorn? Try the adjacent E and G: is there a difference?

Thanks!


I just listened to your recording and did the test according to your instructions on my MP11 (running OS v. 1.062) and I am not able to repeat the issue. I am certainly not getting that distinct "swell" that is plainly evident in your recording. Nor is there any distinguishable difference between F3, F#3, or G3. However, I did notice that E3 seems a little weaker by comparison with the other surrounding notes -- not any big issue though.

I should note that I did my test in headphones -- it's late at night here. I'll try to do the test again tomorrow in the daytime through the my monitor speakers.

Re: Damper resonance issue on CA95... calling MP11 / MP7 owners
lolatu #2285935 06/05/14 04:15 AM
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Comparing this what I heard with my returned MP7, I also hear this disturbing ringing noise at the higher F tone in Hookxs' sound samples.

My hypothesis would be a grave software bug, arising from an under powered processor and too many features implemented too quickly, which leads to odd side effects. I have seen similar things in real time programming projects. On the other hand, none of the acoustic pianos (including two Kawais),which I recently tested, had anything close to those strange sounds.

From what I know about hardware and software, there is always a possibility to fix it, either via an huge update file, or by exchanging one of the electronics boards on the inside. Both wouldn't cost the world, in relation to the damage to the reputation accumulating. Probably they also sacked the leading software engineer or reduced his work force, in order to save money.




Re: Damper resonance issue on CA95... calling MP11 / MP7 owners
Markarian #2285944 06/05/14 04:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Markarian
James, any thoughts on this?


Yes, I can hear an increase in resonance when the damper pedal is pressed.

Originally Posted by Markarian
Also, slightly OT, but do you have a pic of the instrument they used for the MP11/CA95 sampling?


I will have to check with my colleagues who oversaw the recordings - I do not currently have any images from that session.

The concert grand used for the core CA95/CA65/MP11/MP7 sound was not a Shigeru Kawai SK-EX, but a Kawai EX:

[Linked Image]

Kind regards,
James
x


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 & occasional rare groove player.

"I agree that the User Manual is very good." - arc7urus, March 2019
Re: Damper resonance issue on CA95... calling MP11 / MP7 owners
lophiomys #2285948 06/05/14 04:55 AM
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Originally Posted by lophiomys
Probably they also sacked the leading software engineer or reduced his work force, in order to save money.


May I ask if you are a software engineer?
If so, would this happen in the company you work for?

Kind regards,
James
x


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 & occasional rare groove player.

"I agree that the User Manual is very good." - arc7urus, March 2019
Re: Damper resonance issue on CA95... calling MP11 / MP7 owners
Kawai James #2285953 06/05/14 05:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Kawai James
Originally Posted by lophiomys
Probably they also sacked the leading software engineer or reduced his work force, in order to save money.

May I ask if you are a software engineer?
If so, would this happen in the company you work for?
x

Hello James,
I am more the man, who is called upon, to fix things again, after the hinted at mess was created. If it really hurts, reasonable remunerations are paid after all, even for software. smile

But it would be more interesting to know from you, if I would have touched a nerve with my conjectures.

All the Best,
Lo PHi

Re: Damper resonance issue on CA95... calling MP11 / MP7 owners
lophiomys #2285957 06/05/14 06:03 AM
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Originally Posted by lophiomys
I am more the man, who is called upon, to fix things again, after the hinted at mess was created.


But you are not a software engineer?

Originally Posted by lophiomys
But it would be more interesting to know from you, if I would have touched a nerve with my conjectures.


Yes, a little, but I think I will be okay. wink

Life is too short to worry about an increase in resonance on one note, caused by "a grave software bug, arising from an under powered processor and too many features implemented too quickly, which leads to odd side effects".

That being said, I've raised lolatu's concerns with some of my colleagues, so I expect they will look into the F3 characteristic and take the appropriate action.

Kind regards,
James
x


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 & occasional rare groove player.

"I agree that the User Manual is very good." - arc7urus, March 2019
Re: Damper resonance issue on CA95... calling MP11 / MP7 owners
Kawai James #2285958 06/05/14 06:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Kawai James

Life is too short to worry about an increase in resonance on one note, caused by "a grave software bug, arising from an under powered processor and too many features implemented too quickly, which leads to odd side effects".

That being said, I've raised lolatu's concerns with some of my colleagues, so I expect they will look into the F3 characteristic and take the appropriate action.

Kind regards,
James
x


All due respect James, but piano with this bug is unplayable, you brace yourself every time you see F in the sheet music because you know what is coming and then E# gets you unprepared. I refused to play for my friends because I was ashamed of my piano more than of my playing. Like I said, I had to return the piano because I simply couldn't convince myself to sit down and play it again. Life is indeed too short.

I honestly whished you had raised concerns while MP11 was still in the making.

Edited to add: I absolutely mean no ill will, but just want to point out that it is indeed a serious flaw that deserves appropriate attention. I'd gladly take the AC 'issues' RD800 has than this.

Last edited by Hookxs; 06/05/14 06:35 AM.
Re: Damper resonance issue on CA95... calling MP11 / MP7 owners
lolatu #2285966 06/05/14 06:54 AM
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Hookxs, I'm sorry to read that returned your CA95 because of this F3 characteristic.

I played a few Kawai DPs earlier today, including the MP11/MP7 and some other instruments. I could hear the resonance characteristic on the individual F3 note when the damper pedal was pressed, and agree that it is more noticeable than surrounding notes. This phenomenon did not distract me when playing normally, however I accept that other individuals may be more sensitive to these things.

My apologies for not raising this topic with my colleagues when you posted it originally. As I explained at the time, Kawai Japan was on holiday for the Japanese New Year, and I expect it slipped my mind by the time I returned to the office. I do my best to monitor this forum and assist with questions/issues wherever possible, however occasionally one or two posts will fall through the cracks. This is why I recommended contacting your local distributor and Kawai Europe to ensure the matter was reported officially.

lotatu has stated that he will be reporting this particular phenomenon to Kawai UK, so I'm confident that the engineers responsible will investigate the matter.

Okay, time to prepare dinner.

Kind regards,
James
x


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 & occasional rare groove player.

"I agree that the User Manual is very good." - arc7urus, March 2019
Re: Damper resonance issue on CA95... calling MP11 / MP7 owners
lolatu #2286006 06/05/14 09:14 AM
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I was able to reproduce the problem as well. I have a couple of comments on it though:

1) When I proceeded to play some music, I couldn't notice it at all. I even tried playing with and without pedal, and it was not audible. Why would one be "bracing" themselves every time they approached this note is beyond me. On my FP-7 there is one note, G4, that will buzz loudly whenever I play. It has to do with it resonating sympathetically with the speakers and even with adjustments on EQ it always occurs, but I've been able to lessen it. Now that particular note was really jarring and so I understand the idea of bracing oneself before playing a note, but I honestly found no issue when playing a piece with pedal that uses the F3 over and over again (Rachmaninoff Prelude). It did not stand out or overpower the other notes.

2) When one plays on an acoustic, using the damper pedal does make it louder. It just so happens that on this particular note it's more pronounced than the others.

3) When I first bought my MP11, I found that with the damper resonance up so high the sustain carried on far too long for my tastes, so I do play this with a much lower setting (3), but I doubt I would have noticed this issue even if I did have it higher.

I guess I'm used to acoustic pianos where nothing is perfect, even if it's regulated there will always be certain quirks it has that you have to adjust your playing for. The more quirks or inconsistencies, the more adjustment you have to make, and the less enjoyable the playing. So perhaps because of my background, I'm a bit more forgiving/less sensitive than some.

Sure, it would be nice of Kawai fixed this, because it is there and it's a quality control thing...but to return it for this? To have this minor issue overshadow the good things about the piano? Personally, I don't get it.

Last edited by Morodiene; 06/05/14 09:16 AM.

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Re: Damper resonance issue on CA95... calling MP11 / MP7 owners
lolatu #2286013 06/05/14 09:31 AM
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Don`t any o` you lot go buying a DGX650 . . . . .


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Re: Damper resonance issue on CA95... calling MP11 / MP7 owners
Morodiene #2286016 06/05/14 09:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Morodiene
On my FP-7 there is one note, G4, that will buzz loudly whenever I play. It has to do with it resonating sympathetically with the speakers and even with adjustments on EQ it always occurs, but I've been able to lessen it.


OT: you may also try to slightly change the master (440Hz) tune to get rid of that type of problem.

Re: Damper resonance issue on CA95... calling MP11 / MP7 owners
Maxpiano #2286018 06/05/14 09:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Maxpiano
Originally Posted by Morodiene
On my FP-7 there is one note, G4, that will buzz loudly whenever I play. It has to do with it resonating sympathetically with the speakers and even with adjustments on EQ it always occurs, but I've been able to lessen it.


OT: you may also try to slightly change the master (440Hz) tune to get rid of that type of problem.
I have done that already because I was trying to get the FP-7 to be in tune with an acoustic piano in the same room, but I will try adjusting it even more and see if that helps. Of course, if I use other speakers there's no issue either.


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Re: Damper resonance issue on CA95... calling MP11 / MP7 owners
lolatu #2286019 06/05/14 09:38 AM
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Hi Lolatu,

My small contribution to this discussion, based on my direct experience.

Room acoustics can (and typically do) cause incredibly loud and disturbing resonances on specific keys (especially in the mid-low key range) which have nothing to do with issues of the sound source.

The signature of this kind of issues is the fact that they completely disappear when listening through headphones.

The F3 key has a frequency of about 175Hz, which sits nicely in the 'danger zone' of room acoustics (below about 250Hz).

Naturally the issue you are reporting may well be due to a different cause.

Ciao,
Paolo


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Re: Damper resonance issue on CA95... calling MP11 / MP7 owners
Kawai James #2286021 06/05/14 09:40 AM
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lolatu Offline OP
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Thanks for checking this Markarian, Savante, lophiomys, James, and Morodeine.
Originally Posted by Morodeine
Why would one be "bracing" themselves every time they approached this note is beyond me.

Originally Posted by Kawai James
Life is too short to worry about an increase in resonance on one note, caused by "a grave software bug, arising from an under powered processor and too many features implemented too quickly, which leads to odd side effects".

I've added a video to the OP showing the issue, which might convince you it's a bit more serious. I might add another showing its effect in a real piece, although it's a bit tricky for me to record with my mobile phone in one hand (sorry no pro video recording setup!). Hookxs is right - it does make it kind of unplayable, unless you use a different tone (it doesn't happen for Concert Grand 2, or other clearly non-HI-XL sounds), or turn off damper resonance.

Quote
That being said, I've raised lolatu's concerns with some of my colleagues, so I expect they will look into the F3 characteristic and take the appropriate action.

Thanks. Let us know what they say. I'll also raise it through the correct channel and hopefully it'll get through to the right person in Japan...


Kawai CA95 / Steinberg UR22 / Sony MDR-7506 / Pianoteq Stage + Grotrian, Bluethner / Galaxy Vintage D / CFX Lite
In the loft: Roland FP3 / Tannoy Reveal Active / K&M 18810
Re: Damper resonance issue on CA95... calling MP11 / MP7 owners
lolatu #2286028 06/05/14 09:57 AM
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It's there, but it's not that bad. I think Lolatu is at the end of a series of frustrations with his piano and is now hypersensitive to every little thing. From the recording posted, it's not that intense - certainly not what I was expecting when I read the OP. Also, given that it was recorded with a phone in the acoustic space of Lolatu's home, it is very possible that what Paolo said about resonance is making the problem worse. The fact that Lolatu said the problem is not too noticeable when playing through headphones would seem to bear this out.

My overall impression is that you have let your piano get to you, Lolatu. You seem fed up with it - posting mostly complaints on this forum. That's understandable to be upset when you buy something expensive and it doesn't meet your expectations, but I think it's going too far now. You are in the exaggerated stage of discontent now. Every little thing is driving you nuts. There may be no turning back - you may have to cut your losses and get a different piano and make a fresh start. Make sure you check out a new piano in every conceivable way this time. Then after that, if you decide to buy it, buy the floor model that you played and ok'd, and then just play - don't even think about buzzing notes or this or that, just play. I fear this is taking you very much away from music.

Re: Damper resonance issue on CA95... calling MP11 / MP7 owners
lolatu #2286030 06/05/14 10:06 AM
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Originally Posted by lolatu

I've added a video to the OP showing the issue, which might convince you it's a bit more serious. I might add another showing its effect in a real piece, although it's a bit tricky for me to record with my mobile phone in one hand (sorry no pro video recording setup!). Hookxs is right - it does make it kind of unplayable, unless you use a different tone (it doesn't happen for Concert Grand 2, or other clearly non-HI-XL sounds), or turn off damper resonance.


I watched the video and then went and played my MP11. Mine did the same thing as yours when playing that way on F3 and not on the notes around it. However, I tried it again and turned the Damper Resonance down a notch and tested it, and the problem disappeared when I got to 5. Why not just change your damper resonance to 5 and not be bothered by this any longer? No need to turn it all the way off or play other sounds.

I do agree with ando, however, it does seem as though the issues you are having are exaggerated in your mind, like you are looking for problems now. When you are dissatisfied, then everywhere you look you find more reasons to justify your position of dissatisfaction. Maybe this piano just isn't a good fit for you and it's worth trading it for something else.


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Re: Damper resonance issue on CA95... calling MP11 / MP7 owners
lolatu #2286041 06/05/14 10:30 AM
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Morodiene, the problem may be less pronounced in headphones on your MP11. I suspect there was also some (physical) resonance issue with my CA95 at this particular frequency because in speakers, the wooo sound of the F3 was extremely audible and annoying. I am used to playing an acoustic in a very bad shape but this was still too off-putting, it completely messes with how you work with pedal, for one thing. So I understand that it is "beyond you" how someone can seriously complain about this, but I believe that if you experienced the same problem as lolatu and me, you wouldn't be happy either. Playing Pianoteq demo with missing notes provided about equal satisfaction, for comparison.

Also, pressing the damper pedal on an acoustic does not make the (already playing) notes louder. This is an obvious flaw in the DP, plain and simple.

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