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Don't know about all this technical talk, but you sound great Jazzwee. I would also like to see a video on Youtube.

Phil

JW: I agree on Goldings. I think you've checked out Larry Young? That's part of where Goldings come from. I'd also recommend Don Patterson, who played on lot's of Sonny Stitt's records. He is also more from the Bebop school that the soul jazz school. You don't have to look for Patterson as a leader; just look for Stitt albums with Patterson.

Finally, if you like Goldings, you need to check out the Hans Groiner videos on YouTube. I'll say no more on that so I won't ruin the surprise.

I wish you hadn't brought this up, because now I'm looking at that Nord C2 with the two manuals and thinking how great that would be to play continuo with my wife and her recorders. See what you've done? If I only had a few thousand dollars to spend...

Sam

LOL. Well - I'm in this boat because someone showed me what an organ can do. I'm happy to share the pain!

I was at a jam session and someone brought a Nord Stage 2 with Swell pedal. Then when it was my turn to play, I switched from piano to organ and everyone said the organ sounded really good and wanted to hear MORE!

Nord C2 is the big time! Can't afford that. I hear the pros also talking about the Crumar Mojo as the top of the line dual manual clonewheel.

BTW, there isn't much talk of organs in the Digital forum but in the pro keyboard forums, it's 50% of the discussion. So it doesn't see much light of day among "learning" folks.

Yes jjo. I learned Larry Young from you and bought an album by him (thanks BTW!). I noticed that Goldings took Larry Young's playing style and built from it. Young really kept the same sound most of the time (I guess the 888000000 sound). Goldings would tweak a lot more, though not like the blues guys.

So where are you now in your organ pursuits? Are you ready to gig? (minus LH bass I think you said).

Just thinking here that the bane of any adult beginning pianist is developing the piano touch which probably takes at least 10 years.

On organ, the main issue is just the ability to play evenly and in perfect time. The touch/tone side is handled electrically.

The same ears are required for piano vs. organ, however. But it gives someone who doesn't practice as hard a fighting chance to achieve something in a shorter amount of time.

Someone quoted a number of hours as 1:3 ratio (organ vs. piano). I'm sure this only relates to technique since musically, the journey is the same.

JW: I don't intend to use the organ in combination with piano because I'd have to bring two keyboards. Way too complicated. My focus is on the traditional organ combos where I play bass, although not on pedals. I've jammed with a drummer a couple of times, and I've got a guitar player who wants to play with us; we just need to find the right time. Progress is slow because I can only play a piece if I really shedded the bass line. So now I've only got about 3 or 4 tunes I can play. With piano still #1, progress will be slow, but I hope steady. Have no idea if I'll ever find a venue for a gig.

jjo, how did Tony Monaco teach you bass? Fixed patterns for ii-V-I's first? Complete improvisation? Transcribe first?

I was trying to do something too complicated in my LH (improvising). Did too many patterns and that's part of my difficulty today. If I were to rethink this, I'd just concentrate on groove first and simplify the patterns. Add patterns slowly.

What do you think?

JW: Simple, fixed, patterns. When I struggled with walking, we did a whole piece with mainly octaves and fifths. For example, a ii-V -I to Bb maj: C G C F# / F C F B / Bb etc. Fancy bass lines and improvising come much later. Now it's about developing the groove.

So 1-5-8-half-step is the preferred approach?

I was doing 1-3-5-#11

I just want to post a comparison between my piano playing and my organ playing (as of this moment). I still think that my capacity to express articulation on the organ is at a baby stage. I'm a little better on piano.

There's obviously a different articulation approach on the organ. I hear the A-List players and they are so expressive. But an organ has a square envelope, as they say. There is no decay. So I haven't found the answer yet.

Articulation, as you get more advanced is about dynamics at each note, and micro-time control at the note level. These are subtle elements that often cannot be heard by beginners. I can do it to some degree on piano now. Now that I'm able to hear it on piano, it's glaringly absent on organ and it is frustrating.

Piano
https://app.box.com/s/aehj7n0v797tx1sxmmt5

Organ
https://app.box.com/s/lxqv582m6zo9cbyaqgl7

I'm thinking though that learning control of the organ articulation may add to development in piano control, at least at the time level (clearly not in dynamics).

BTW - most newbies in organ are probably concerned about the organ specific sounds like blues licks, glisses, smears, etc. I think these are the easy elements. I think the basics have to be mastered. Like starting at Alfreds Level 1.

Tony never suggested it's preferred, just one approach. I think he was just looking for something that was easy to play, so I think just pick what comes more naturally.

I can see the benefits of 1-5-8. You don't have to consider the chord quality for major/minor. So you basically only think of the root (and the occasional half-dim). I was able to do All the Things You Are without thinking much.

It's really neat you're in the same area as the most well known Hammond B3 teacher.

Actually, Tony is in Ohio and I'm in Chicago. The lessons use Skype, and Tony is well set up to do that. We even did one lesson from his hotel room when he was on the road.

Hi Jazzwee,

That is really kool that you are getting into organ, I just love the sound too. Different technique it is, something of "another animal" to tame and I'd say its just as difficult to get a good sound on a tune on organ than it is on piano. Just different.

If you have another keyboard with MIDI you can then configure it as the 2nd manual for the Nord, unless the Nord doesn't allow for it but I think it does. I do this with my Kurz PC3X or a computer running Native Instrument's B4. There are (or were) real drawbar MIDI accessories available too but if you ever get your hands on a Nord electro 4D, it has bars instead of those 2 up/down buttons.

I too, would love to get my hands on a B3 or even just an M100; both with a Leslie of course Good ones in near pristine condition are quite expensive (3-4K average, unless you know a little old lady that has one to get rid of). And one of my pet projects for when I retire in a few years is to find one and restore it to factory like-new. I remember as a kid still being fascinated with the rotating horn in the big brown box

For some great listening, check out Vince Seneri, Joey DeFrancesco, Reuben Wilson.

John

Hey John, tell us of your organ playing history! Each one starts differently and it's fascinating to hear how one evolves to organs.

I've been having so many issues with so many things to learn on this. I've been asking questions on another keyboard forum where there's a lot of organ experts.

There's a lot to absorb but I've made quite a bit of headway in a couple of weeks so I'm excited.

Right now, I'm figuring out how to do LH Bass on organ. Much different from what I learned with LH bass on piano. Less area to cover (octave). We'll see how it goes.

Just found out that Joey D is coming to one of my preferred local music clubs. I've seen in several times before, but I'll be going to this one, for sure. Right now he's touring with a Chicago based drummer (George Fludas) and a guitar player who used to be in Chicago although I think he's out in LA now (Jeff Parker).

Cool jjo!

How long has it been since you started on organ BTW?

My first lesson with Tony was in January. I take a lesson every 3 weeks or so as I don't practice enough to take weekly lessons. It's been fun, but this concept for working a full time job may have to go!

The journey continues! Played organ at a gig tonight after 3 weeks of trying to figure it out. Still lots of rough edges but the audience seems to like the sound though.

https://app.box.com/s/c2nc8vwao9r4b0bhtnnn