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Re: CHAS for Dummies [Re: Chris Storch] #2277207
05/16/14 06:49 PM
05/16/14 06:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Chris Storch
Originally Posted by prout

Actually, on some pianos (mine in particular), the 3rd partial of A0 is as strong as the first partial of E2, as seen below. Both sounds were recorded at very low volume.

Here is A0 with a -75db third partial

Huh. I read a relative level of about -65dB for the third partial in that first plot. Do I need glasses?

Nope. I do. whistle

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Re: CHAS for Dummies [Re: pinkfloydhomer] #2277331
05/17/14 03:01 AM
05/17/14 03:01 AM
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Here are the notes measured in the Melodigrand. As you can see the first partial of the lower notes is not audible. Thus it is not possible to tune 3:1 P12s in the bass.

iH Melodigrand



Rafael Melo
Piano Technician
rafaelmelo@afinacionpianos.com.mx

Serving Mexico City and suburbs.

http://www.afinacionpianos.com.mx
Re: CHAS for Dummies [Re: prout] #2277360
05/17/14 06:37 AM
05/17/14 06:37 AM
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Originally Posted by prout
Originally Posted by Olek
[
a 3!2 or a 6:4 fifth is not something with a meaning, to me, this is not even a 5th . A fifth is an interval with a slow beat.

A beat is periodic energy fluctuation whatever the number of composites it contains.



Isaac, I like that last sentence of yours. When you tune an interval, do you aim for the most calm sound, or the most energy in the sound, or the best colour in the sound? Or, do you tune the interval differently in different places on the keyboard?


Hello thanks, I am sorry not to have a decent explanation.
Since I stopped almost totally to use the standard tests, I replaced them by listening to consonance, activityu, color may be.

WHat I believe is that thos partial match tests are always in a closee ballpark, but they do not really prove us the interval is nicely tuned.

I stick with progressive large intervals of course, wanting mostly none of them to be aggressively shrilling.

But that is also an unison question at that point.

You may know the freeom sensation that it gives to be tuning by musical output.

I think I take the consonance level, and that is that part that I temper, not some beats speed difference, and anyway it can be so small difference I dont believe the ear can really precisely denote it.

Regards


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I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
Re: CHAS for Dummies [Re: Gadzar] #2277380
05/17/14 07:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Gadzar
Here are the notes measured in the Melodigrand. As you can see the first partial of the lower notes is not audible. Thus it is not possible to tune 3:1 P12s in the bass.

iH Melodigrand



Yes, I see your point.

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Re: CHAS for Dummies [Re: Olek] #2277381
05/17/14 07:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Olek
Originally Posted by prout
Originally Posted by Olek
[
a 3!2 or a 6:4 fifth is not something with a meaning, to me, this is not even a 5th . A fifth is an interval with a slow beat.

A beat is periodic energy fluctuation whatever the number of composites it contains.



Isaac, I like that last sentence of yours. When you tune an interval, do you aim for the most calm sound, or the most energy in the sound, or the best colour in the sound? Or, do you tune the interval differently in different places on the keyboard?


I think I take the consonance level, and that is that part that I temper, not some beats speed difference, and anyway it can be so small difference I dont believe the ear can really precisely denote it.

Regards


I am finding that the tempering (stretch) required for ET to have consonance in the multiple octaves/fifths (I am thinking of arpeggios) is different from the stretch needed in another temperament (Young in my case) since the fifths are of different sizes.

Re: CHAS for Dummies [Re: pinkfloydhomer] #2277408
05/17/14 09:44 AM
05/17/14 09:44 AM
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YEs I think a differnt range of consonances.

Tuning by Young or WT temperament is an appreciable experiment for the one used to the ET compromizing.

That is what I mean saying one may experience some freedom doing so.

ANd then I would suppose that kind of freedom can be taken for use when tuning ET (within margins of course)


yes consonance in ET is very strong betwween octaves twelves and all the doublings. That may be how I can precisely tune a 6th octave pure nd lining well just by listening to the tone quality of the note. I just refrain to "raise in turns" in some extreme stretch. Then 3 or 4 octaves span are just in place.

I was surprised to discover that the octave can be so much a good tool for tuning. But the habit of listening to the partials coupling "purity" helps for that of course.

in arpeggios, top note can have a somehow "tempezred" venue, but it does not sound flat as I could notice beforethen.

I believe that the initial mediums octave allow the room for that large span. Enlarging the mediums gives some security in regard of beats progression 'and settling) But it can make the harmony more "static" or "straight" .
Thze fact that low 4:2 and high 2:1 together seem to rule the twelve in a "tempered " feeking is for me an excellent foundation.

Best regards

BTW Gadzar, you did send a sample of very nicely tuned intervals a few years ago. DO you think using an ETD did change a little then way you listen now ?




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Re: CHAS for Dummies [Re: Olek] #2277422
05/17/14 10:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Olek


in arpeggios, top note can have a somehow "tempezred" venue, but it does not sound flat as I could notice before then.



This is an interesting psycho-acoustic phenomenon I hear all the time. A full range arpeggio A0-A7 for example) makes the top note sound in tune to me, but playing a small range arpeggio (A4-A7) makes the same top note sound flat to me. Do other people hear this a well?

Re: CHAS for Dummies [Re: Olek] #2277482
05/17/14 12:44 PM
05/17/14 12:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Olek
BTW Gadzar, you did send a sample of very nicely tuned intervals a few years ago. DO you think using an ETD did change a little then way you listen now ?


Thank you Isaac. For me the ETD has been an obstacle in developping my hearing skills and a tool to make money.

The more I use the ETD the less I hear.

I use it to quickly tune the first pass, mostly pitch raises, and then, if I have the time and the mood, I do aurally the fine tuning.

But definitely the ETD has shown me how a given interval should sound. For example if I want to hear the difference between a 6:3 octave and a 4:2. With the ETD they are really easy to tune and then carefully listen to the differences.

It helps also to study the amount of stretch needed by a given piano. Auraly speaking iH is transparent or invisible. When you tune by ear you can only hear if a interval is pure or tempered, if you measure a pure sounding interval you find out that it is actually stretched and you see by how much.

In particular for the tuning of the initial A3A4 octave, if I tune this octave as clean as possible and then I measure it with the ETD, I've found that in small pianos it is often a 2:1/4:2 balance. And in large pianos it is a 4:2/6:3.

But the ETD has a great disadvantage in that you can tune en entire piano without listening except for the unisons.

If I'd never used an ETD I bet my hearing skills had developed more in less time.

Another important issue is that the tuning hammer technique is different for aural tuning than for visual tuning. In particular I am more conscient of what is happening in the NSL when I tune by ear.

When tuning with the ETD I seldom have to shim o crak a unison. This is an almost "by ear" resource.

But what I see as the most valuable advantage of the ETD is that you can use it to learn to set the pitch and tune the temperament by ear. It is a good, objectif, impartial, consistent and reliable judge that tells you how well or bad you are doing it.


Rafael Melo
Piano Technician
rafaelmelo@afinacionpianos.com.mx

Serving Mexico City and suburbs.

http://www.afinacionpianos.com.mx
Re: CHAS for Dummies [Re: prout] #2277851
05/18/14 09:45 AM
05/18/14 09:45 AM
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Originally Posted by prout
Originally Posted by Olek


in arpeggios, top note can have a somehow "tempezred" venue, but it does not sound flat as I could notice before then.



This is an interesting psycho-acoustic phenomenon I hear all the time. A full range arpeggio A0-A7 for example) makes the top note sound in tune to me, but playing a small range arpeggio (A4-A7) makes the same top note sound flat to me. Do other people hear this a well?


I believe that tuning with open unison (a term visibly not m¨any understand here) allows the piano to be more reactive to its own iH. I see no other reason why I have no real justness problems between basses and treble.

NOt anymore anyway since I worked CHAS tuning.

WHenever I test resonance of unplayed notes both directions (ghosting) , I find them very immediate very active and if beating it is slow enough or discrete enough not to be boithering.



Trying to tune pianos as if they had 2 strings is very frustrating. I believe that is why Well tunings are appreciated, as they reinstall some resonance where it is reduced with too straight tuning (unless it have been done with a very precise structure, in that case they color the tuning with a strong but dry attack mode)



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Re: CHAS for Dummies [Re: prout] #2278263
05/19/14 06:13 AM
05/19/14 06:13 AM
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Originally Posted by prout
Originally Posted by Olek


in arpeggios, top note can have a somehow "tempezred" venue, but it does not sound flat as I could notice before then.



This is an interesting psycho-acoustic phenomenon I hear all the time. A full range arpeggio A0-A7 for example) makes the top note sound in tune to me, but playing a small range arpeggio (A4-A7) makes the same top note sound flat to me. Do other people hear this a well?


What I notice is that A7 sounds very different when playing an upward, A0-A7, arpeggio than playing a downward A7-A0 arpeggio and then repeating A7. If you tune aurally pure octaves, A#7 sounds much better than A7 after a A7-A0 arpeggio. But on most pianos, it is best to go no lower than A1, and for that matter skip C#2.


Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?
Re: CHAS for Dummies [Re: pinkfloydhomer] #2278267
05/19/14 06:23 AM
05/19/14 06:23 AM
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Jeff and prout,

I'd like to try this ascending/descending effect. Do you hold the respective arpeggio with the pedal?


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Re: CHAS for Dummies [Re: Mark R.] #2278294
05/19/14 07:31 AM
05/19/14 07:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Mark R.
Jeff and prout,

I'd like to try this ascending/descending effect. Do you hold the respective arpeggio with the pedal?


I only did so only once. The piano then vomited walrus sputum all over a genuine 17th century persian rug. wink

I use the pedal. It might make a difference. I don't know.


Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?
Re: CHAS for Dummies [Re: pinkfloydhomer] #2278639
05/19/14 10:47 PM
05/19/14 10:47 PM
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Well, I wonder if this post belongs here or to the thread on P12s tuning, anyway here it is:

I tuned the Melodigrand with pure 3:1 P12s by ear, so I guess in the lower part of the scale I actually tuned 6:2 P12s. The only check I did was hearing the 4:1 double octave, which must be wide. Example tune E3 to B4 from sharp to in tune, while checking E3E5 remains wide. Aiming to tune a pure 3:1 and not a 6:2 P12.

And the result was beating narrow octaves from E3 down to C#2. From C2 down to A0 octaves were less narrow. At some point they became acceptable.

From A0 to C2 there are monochords with double wound strings.

From C#2 up to G#3 there are bichords with single wound strings.

I liked the treble. Though, the high treble was a little flat to my taste.

Last edited by Gadzar; 05/19/14 11:33 PM.

Rafael Melo
Piano Technician
rafaelmelo@afinacionpianos.com.mx

Serving Mexico City and suburbs.

http://www.afinacionpianos.com.mx
Re: CHAS for Dummies [Re: pinkfloydhomer] #2278728
05/20/14 07:28 AM
05/20/14 07:28 AM
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Rafael:

You will probably agree with me that wound strings are a special case in any tuning method. The reason there are wound strings at all is because we don't build 20+ foot long pianos very often. Wound strings are a compromise, and should be tuned with some sort of compromise. Do you agree with this Rafael?

The compromise I use when tuning pure 12ths is to include the octave above the lower note when expanding the temperament downward and strive for the most resonant sound.

Btw, how did your RBIs across the break turn out?


Jeff Deutschle
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Who taught the first chicken how to peck?
Re: CHAS for Dummies [Re: Mark R.] #2278741
05/20/14 07:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Mark R.
Jeff and prout,

I'd like to try this ascending/descending effect. Do you hold the respective arpeggio with the pedal?


For me, it is most noticeable with the dampers lifted. On the short arpeggios, the upper note can sound as much as a semitone flat. On the full arpeggio, it sounds correctly placed with the rest of the notes. I wonder if the upper partials from the lower notes are masking/reinforcing the perceived pitch?

Re: CHAS for Dummies [Re: pinkfloydhomer] #2278903
05/20/14 03:03 PM
05/20/14 03:03 PM
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SOmeone make a recording please ?



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I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
Re: CHAS for Dummies [Re: UnrightTooner] #2279105
05/21/14 05:15 AM
05/21/14 05:15 AM
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Originally Posted by UnrightTooner

Originally Posted by Gadzar

I have not found a single beat rate that can be tuned from A0 to C8.


"I have not found a single beat rate that can be tuned from A0 to C8."

I have. A pure 3:1 12ths. On an idealized studio it give A0 -9 cents and C8 +28 cents.


I gave it a try and I got what I suspected: too narrow bass and high treble. And you say:

Originally Posted by UnrightTooner
Rafael:

You will probably agree with me that wound strings are a special case in any tuning method. The reason there are wound strings at all is because we don't build 20+ foot long pianos very often. Wound strings are a compromise, and should be tuned with some sort of compromise. Do you agree with this Rafael?

The compromise I use....




You said first that 3:1 P12s can be used to tune from A0 to C8.

Now you say that compromises must be made for tuning wound strings.


Is it kind of a joke?

I have the impression you are turning around going nowhere. Studying idealized pianos without iH,, that do not exist, tuning imaginary intervals that can not be heard. I realy don't follow you.

Because of iH, tuning a piano is a matter of compromises, different compromises at different points of the scale, so you can not therefore tune it using one unique interval from A0 to C8.

Baldassin has written a complete book explaining all this stuff, with details of the intervals and ranges of the scale, tests for each interval, aural and electronic instructions to tune them, etc.

The ETD I use is based on these principles to calculate each tuning. The user chooses a "style", built in or custom made, which defines the stretch used at each point in the scale.

Piano tuning has not an ideal solution, it is all about compromises.


Last edited by Gadzar; 05/21/14 06:09 AM.

Rafael Melo
Piano Technician
rafaelmelo@afinacionpianos.com.mx

Serving Mexico City and suburbs.

http://www.afinacionpianos.com.mx
Re: CHAS for Dummies [Re: pinkfloydhomer] #2279129
05/21/14 06:59 AM
05/21/14 06:59 AM
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Gadzar:

Always the "Wolf in Sheep's Clothing." You pretend to be peaceably objective, and then attack.

I find that pure 12ths work just fine, except when there are poorly scaled or wound bass strings. Just because you do not doesn't mean a thing. smile


Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?
Re: CHAS for Dummies [Re: pinkfloydhomer] #2279190
05/21/14 09:39 AM
05/21/14 09:39 AM
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All pianos have wound strings! Even well scaled pianos have wound strings.

So if, I understand you, are you saying that you find that pure 12ths work fine except on all pianos?


Rafael Melo
Piano Technician
rafaelmelo@afinacionpianos.com.mx

Serving Mexico City and suburbs.

http://www.afinacionpianos.com.mx
Re: CHAS for Dummies [Re: pinkfloydhomer] #2279205
05/21/14 10:12 AM
05/21/14 10:12 AM
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OK, lobo, let me say "Poorly scaled and/or poorly would bass strings..."

If the scaling is good and the string winding is good there is no problem.


Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?
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