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Re: CHAS for Dummies [Re: Chris Leslie] #2276086
05/14/14 06:31 PM
05/14/14 06:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Chris Leslie
prout, how did you get those figures for those tables? Did you measure them on your piano with your software? Are they repeatable?

Also, I suppose you derived the iH values from the partial data. If so then they will be subject to an error term.

I would be interested in seeing similar figures comparing chromatic M6th given evenly progressive M3rds.


The table figures are calculated based on the iH data. Early on in my experiments, I calculated the tuning values, tuned them, and then measured the resultant beat rates against my predicted beat rates. They were accurate within the limits of my measurement capability, but not good enough. I have now refined the accuracy of the iH values, and, using the correction deltas for the lower six partials, feel that the predictions are much more accurate. However, I have not had time to tune using the latest data, measure the resultant beat rates and do the analysis. (Too much concertizing and practicing at the moment.) I hope to eventually show the results, good or bad, for you all to see.

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Re: CHAS for Dummies [Re: pinkfloydhomer] #2276101
05/14/14 06:48 PM
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So how did you get the iH data in the first place? They have to be very accurate or else the rest of the data will be not very valid.


Chris Leslie ARPT
Piano technician
http://www.chrisleslie.com.au
Re: CHAS for Dummies [Re: Chris Leslie] #2276124
05/14/14 07:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Chris Leslie
So how did you get the iH data in the first place? They have to be very accurate or else the rest of the data will be not very valid.


The iH data collection has been the most time consuming. I have collected multiple samples of each note (between ten and twenty) in wave files at 24 bit 48kHz using a flat reference microphone. I export the sample (decimated to the Nyquist Freq for the upper partial that I am looking at, which requires multiples runs per note in order to get all the partials) then load each sample of each note into a java programme that does a FFT analysis on the sample, does bin interpolation and converges on the individual partial frequency. That data is exported to an Excel spreadsheet, and averaged with all the other data for that particular partial for that particular note. Once sufficient data has been collected and averaged, I run LINEST function to determine the slope (iH) and the y-intercept (f0). The iH is used to calculate the partials for each note, a delta is determined for the lower six partials for all notes from A0 through C4 and this data is used to produce a basic tuning template for trial stretches and temperament.

Re: CHAS for Dummies [Re: pinkfloydhomer] #2276132
05/14/14 07:47 PM
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Thanks prout. I was wondering if after that process you are able to determine error terms for the iH values, and then use the variance to look at significant variance in the beat rate figures which helps me to interpret your data.

Sorry, I hope I don't sound too interrogative. I just have a thing about statistical rigour at times.


Chris Leslie ARPT
Piano technician
http://www.chrisleslie.com.au
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Re: CHAS for Dummies [Re: pinkfloydhomer] #2276324
05/15/14 02:31 AM
05/15/14 02:31 AM
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I was not talking about that.

In the table you posted you have tuned a
quasi perfect progression of 5ths. The result is jumping major thirds.

I ask you if you can try to make a tuning with a quasi perfect progression of fourths, I guess you'll have better major thirds and good fifths.

About what I tune, I start with 4:2 octaves at the temperament (F3-A4). In large pianos I tune 4:2+ octaves and in small pianos I tune 4:2- octaves.

For the treble I tune mindless octaves (4:1+/3:1-) and pure triple octaves at the high treble (8:1).

Some days ago I tried the tuning of pure 19ths, double octave + fifth, 6:1, as suggested by Mark Cerisano and I liked the bright sound it produces.

In the basse I tune 6:3 octaves or even wider octaves, stretching as much as the piano allows. I usually check the tuning of bass notes with notes in the temperament area F3-A4.

For me ET is only an ideal from where we start when setting the temperament octave. From there the notion of equality disappears as we stretch intervals to accomodate for the iH.

The tuning we get is ET in the sense that all the intervals sound equal tempered but in fact they are more stretched at the extremes of the scale: remember Railsback?

A model as CHAS with a fixed ratio and a constant stretch for all the notes from A0 to C8 is not a valid piano tuning model, because it doesn' follow the Railsback curve.


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Re: CHAS for Dummies [Re: pinkfloydhomer] #2276360
05/15/14 06:05 AM
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Raphael. As long as the model follow an acoustical shape it is driven by the iH.
The fact is that some of the iH is annhilated with Chas because it use a strong resonant node.
a little like you when using small 4:2 octaves. The twelve beat is hidden then.

Regards


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I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
Re: CHAS for Dummies [Re: Gadzar] #2276377
05/15/14 07:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Gadzar
.....

The tuning we get is ET in the sense that all the intervals sound equal tempered but in fact they are more stretched at the extremes of the scale: remember Railsback?

A model as CHAS with a fixed ratio and a constant stretch for all the notes from A0 to C8 is not a valid piano tuning model, because it doesn' follow the Railsback curve.


So then a M3 that beats at 3 bps would sound equally tempered to one two octaves higher at 12 bps?

But if we say a tuning model that has equally beating 12ths and 15ths with a common note on bottom (such as CHAS), then that definition does produce a railsback curve on a piano with iH. It just happens that if a piano does not have iH, then the result is the fixed ratio in the model.

The Railsback curve is an "artifact" of tuning to beatrates (aurally or electronically) rather than to a fixed ratio. We need not include it, or any frequency ratios, in a tuning model at all. We can just model with beatrates, which will result in different tunings on different pianos.


Jeff Deutschle
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Re: CHAS for Dummies [Re: Chris Leslie] #2276473
05/15/14 11:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Chris Leslie
Thanks prout. I was wondering if after that process you are able to determine error terms for the iH values, and then use the variance to look at significant variance in the beat rate figures which helps me to interpret your data.

Sorry, I hope I don't sound too interrogative. I just have a thing about statistical rigour at times.


I don't mind the questions at all.

The LINEST function for iH gives me R^2 values that range from 0.9998, mostly 0.999+, to a single low of 0.9974 on D#7 and the +- values are better than 1% up to C7 slowly increasing to 2% at C8. This implies that my published iH values are accurate to 3 significant figures.

I had to make a decision regarding the inclusion of the lower partials in the iH calculation for the bass bridge and lower tenor strings. After much testing I found that removing the lower three or four anomalous partials from the first 32 partials used to calculate the iH, gave a much more accurate result. I continue to use the deviant partials in the beat rate calculations as an offset which can be as much as -6.7 cents. Including the anomalous partials in the iH calculation still gave a usable iH value, but really disturbed the f0 number and still required the inclusion of offsets in the partial calculations for tuning.

Here is the iH graph shown in terms that most ETDs would use:

[Linked Image]

Re: CHAS for Dummies [Re: pinkfloydhomer] #2276632
05/15/14 05:45 PM
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Ok prout, I see now, I think! You are somehow measuring partial data using your FFT program. Then you are regressing the partial data for each note and determining the veracity of the data by the examining R^2. I am happy with 3 significant figures if that is what you get. But your beat rates are derived from the measured partial data, right, and not back from the calculated iH data?

I am not sure how the anomalous lower partials will upset your f0. Do you mean P0? If so, shouldn't P0 be a starting point for any calculations rather than a result?

Last edited by Chris Leslie; 05/15/14 06:03 PM.

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Re: CHAS for Dummies [Re: UnrightTooner] #2276747
05/15/14 09:41 PM
05/15/14 09:41 PM
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Originally Posted by UnrightTooner
Originally Posted by Gadzar
.....

The tuning we get is ET in the sense that all the intervals sound equal tempered but in fact they are more stretched at the extremes of the scale: remember Railsback?

A model as CHAS with a fixed ratio and a constant stretch for all the notes from A0 to C8 is not a valid piano tuning model, because it doesn' follow the Railsback curve.


So then a M3 that beats at 3 bps would sound equally tempered to one two octaves higher at 12 bps?

But if we say a tuning model that has equally beating 12ths and 15ths with a common note on bottom (such as CHAS), then that definition does produce a railsback curve on a piano with iH. It just happens that if a piano does not have iH, then the result is the fixed ratio in the model.

The Railsback curve is an "artifact" of tuning to beatrates (aurally or electronically) rather than to a fixed ratio. We need not include it, or any frequency ratios, in a tuning model at all. We can just model with beatrates, which will result in different tunings on different pianos.


I guess yes. The question is, as always, what beats are you going to listen to in a given point of the scale and how they will progress?

I have not found a single beat rate that can be tuned from A0 to C8.

For the first part of yor comment I really can not imagine how to tune CHAS with iH. I think equal beating 12ths and 15ths is wrong. That is not CHAS. I understand that CHAS is the geometric mean between pure 12th and and pure 15th. More precisely partials 4 and 3.

There are regions on the piano scale with two audible beat rates for the 12th 3:1 and 6:2 and even a third one in the low bass 9:3. The same happens with 10:5, 8:4, 6:3 4:2, and2:1 octaves. Then how are the CHAS P12/P15 to be tuned there, where several audible beats rates?

And what is for you a piano without iH? You speak of it as if it was a tunable instrument and not a mathematical abstraction.

Last edited by Gadzar; 05/15/14 10:14 PM.

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Re: CHAS for Dummies [Re: Chris Leslie] #2276880
05/16/14 06:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Chris Leslie
Ok prout, I see now, I think! You are somehow measuring partial data using your FFT program. Then you are regressing the partial data for each note and determining the veracity of the data by the examining R^2. I am happy with 3 significant figures if that is what you get. But your beat rates are derived from the measured partial data, right, and not back from the calculated iH data?

I am not sure how the anomalous lower partials will upset your f0. Do you mean P0? If so, shouldn't P0 be a starting point for any calculations rather than a result?


It would be best to replace the word 'calculated' with 'predicted'. The 'calc' beat rates shown in the tables are derived from my math. I will run a few test M3s today and show the theoretical, calculated, and actual beat rates.

The f0 I refer to is the base frequency from which all the partials, including the first, are calculated. In theory, it is always lower, due to iH, than the first partial. What is P0?

Re: CHAS for Dummies [Re: Olek] #2276885
05/16/14 06:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Olek
[
a 3!2 or a 6:4 fifth is not something with a meaning, to me, this is not even a 5th . A fifth is an interval with a slow beat.

A beat is periodic energy fluctuation whatever the number of composites it contains.



Isaac, I like that last sentence of yours. When you tune an interval, do you aim for the most calm sound, or the most energy in the sound, or the best colour in the sound? Or, do you tune the interval differently in different places on the keyboard?

Re: CHAS for Dummies [Re: pinkfloydhomer] #2276887
05/16/14 07:01 AM
05/16/14 07:01 AM
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Raphael,

Thank you for your ideas on octave sizes when tuning.

I produced a table of perfect P4s and it contains the same type of jumps and variations in the M3s and P5s as the the perfect P5 table I posted. I am working on a quasi-perfect P4 table as you suggested and it shows promise.


Re: CHAS for Dummies [Re: Gadzar] #2276911
05/16/14 07:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Gadzar
Originally Posted by UnrightTooner
Originally Posted by Gadzar
.....

The tuning we get is ET in the sense that all the intervals sound equal tempered but in fact they are more stretched at the extremes of the scale: remember Railsback?

A model as CHAS with a fixed ratio and a constant stretch for all the notes from A0 to C8 is not a valid piano tuning model, because it doesn' follow the Railsback curve.


So then a M3 that beats at 3 bps would sound equally tempered to one two octaves higher at 12 bps?

But if we say a tuning model that has equally beating 12ths and 15ths with a common note on bottom (such as CHAS), then that definition does produce a railsback curve on a piano with iH. It just happens that if a piano does not have iH, then the result is the fixed ratio in the model.

The Railsback curve is an "artifact" of tuning to beatrates (aurally or electronically) rather than to a fixed ratio. We need not include it, or any frequency ratios, in a tuning model at all. We can just model with beatrates, which will result in different tunings on different pianos.


I guess yes. The question is, as always, what beats are you going to listen to in a given point of the scale and how they will progress?

I have not found a single beat rate that can be tuned from A0 to C8.

For the first part of yor comment I really can not imagine how to tune CHAS with iH. I think equal beating 12ths and 15ths is wrong. That is not CHAS. I understand that CHAS is the geometric mean between pure 12th and and pure 15th. More precisely partials 4 and 3.

There are regions on the piano scale with two audible beat rates for the 12th 3:1 and 6:2 and even a third one in the low bass 9:3. The same happens with 10:5, 8:4, 6:3 4:2, and2:1 octaves. Then how are the CHAS P12/P15 to be tuned there, where several audible beats rates?

And what is for you a piano without iH? You speak of it as if it was a tunable instrument and not a mathematical abstraction.


"I have not found a single beat rate that can be tuned from A0 to C8."

I have. A pure 3:1 12ths. On an idealized studio it give A0 -9 cents and C8 +28 cents.

As far as defining CHAS, well, Alfredo makes that a "moving target".

Electronic pianos can have no iH. I was using this as a comparison.



Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?
Re: CHAS for Dummies [Re: UnrightTooner] #2276943
05/16/14 09:35 AM
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Originally Posted by UnrightTooner
[quote=Gadzar][quote=UnrightTooner][
Electronic pianos can have no iH. I was using this as a comparison.



That's not true. All digital pianos that sample from real pianos also have the iH sampled in. And digital pianos that use physical modeling (such as Pianoteq) most certainly have iH. I have a Yamaha P120 (1998 vintage) and the piano samples not only have iH but also stretch - this is easy to hear when playing simultaneously with the voices that don't have stretch and iH (e.g. Vibraphone or pipe organ). The M3 rates are pretty progressive too - thought the overall stretch is a bit tame, probably so as to harmonize better with the non-stretched voices.

Paul.

Re: CHAS for Dummies [Re: pinkfloydhomer] #2277038
05/16/14 01:02 PM
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Jeff,

3:1 from A0 to C8 means that you tune the 3rd partial of A0 to the first partial of E2, which is not audible, not even measurable with an ETD!

I've measured the Melodygrand console with Tunelab Pro and the first partial is not present in the spectrum of the notes A#2 down to A0.

So how can one tune a note to a partial that is not audible? And neither measurable?

If you hear any beats in the P12 A0E2 then you are surely hearing 9:3 or 6:2 beatings, but surely not 3:1.

And when you have jumps in iH, it has been proven here that if you tune pure 3:1 P12s, where audible, then you'll have unacceptable jumps (even inversions) in the progression of M3s and all the others RBIs.

Rick Baldassin, in his book "On Pitch", has demonstrated that different sizes of octaves are to be tuned in different places of the piano scale. Different sizes of octaves means different sizes of all other intervals, 3:1 P12s included.

Don't you agree?

Last edited by Gadzar; 05/16/14 03:20 PM.

Rafael Melo
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Re: CHAS for Dummies [Re: Gadzar] #2277085
05/16/14 02:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Gadzar
Jeff,

3:1 from A0 to C8 means that you tune the 3rd partial of A0 to the first partial of E2, which is not audible, not even measurable with an ETD!

I've measured the Melodygrand console with Tunelab Pro and the first partial is not present in the spectrum of the notes A#2 down to A0.

So how can one tune a note to a partial that is not audible? And neither measurable?

If you hear any beats in the P12 A0E2 then you are surely hearing 9:3 or 6:2 beatings, but surely not 3:1.

And when you have jumps in iH, it has been proven here that if you tune pure 3:1 P12s, where audible, then you'll have unacceptable jumps (even inversions) in the progression of M3s and all the others RBIs.

Rick Baldassin, in his book "On Pitch", has demonstrated that different sizes of octaves are to be tuned in different places of the piano scale. Different sizes of octaves means different sizes of all other intervals.

Don't you agree?


Actually, on some pianos (mine in particular), the 3rd partial of A0 is as strong as the first partial of E2, as seen below. Both sounds were recorded at very low volume.

Here is A0 with a -75db third partial

[Linked Image]

Here is E2 with a -75db first partial

[Linked Image]


Re: CHAS for Dummies [Re: pinkfloydhomer] #2277108
05/16/14 03:27 PM
05/16/14 03:27 PM
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Prout,

You don't have a spinet, do you? Lol!


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Serving Mexico City and suburbs.

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Re: CHAS for Dummies [Re: Gadzar] #2277123
05/16/14 04:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Gadzar
Prout,

You don't have a spinet, do you? Lol!


Back in 1959 - Yes!

Re: CHAS for Dummies [Re: prout] #2277147
05/16/14 04:48 PM
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Originally Posted by prout

Actually, on some pianos (mine in particular), the 3rd partial of A0 is as strong as the first partial of E2, as seen below. Both sounds were recorded at very low volume.

Here is A0 with a -75db third partial

Huh. I read a relative level of about -65dB for the third partial in that first plot. Do I need glasses?


Chris Storch
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Re: CHAS for Dummies [Re: Chris Storch] #2277207
05/16/14 06:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Chris Storch
Originally Posted by prout

Actually, on some pianos (mine in particular), the 3rd partial of A0 is as strong as the first partial of E2, as seen below. Both sounds were recorded at very low volume.

Here is A0 with a -75db third partial

Huh. I read a relative level of about -65dB for the third partial in that first plot. Do I need glasses?

Nope. I do. whistle

Re: CHAS for Dummies [Re: pinkfloydhomer] #2277331
05/17/14 03:01 AM
05/17/14 03:01 AM
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Here are the notes measured in the Melodigrand. As you can see the first partial of the lower notes is not audible. Thus it is not possible to tune 3:1 P12s in the bass.

iH Melodigrand



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Re: CHAS for Dummies [Re: prout] #2277360
05/17/14 06:37 AM
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Originally Posted by prout
Originally Posted by Olek
[
a 3!2 or a 6:4 fifth is not something with a meaning, to me, this is not even a 5th . A fifth is an interval with a slow beat.

A beat is periodic energy fluctuation whatever the number of composites it contains.



Isaac, I like that last sentence of yours. When you tune an interval, do you aim for the most calm sound, or the most energy in the sound, or the best colour in the sound? Or, do you tune the interval differently in different places on the keyboard?


Hello thanks, I am sorry not to have a decent explanation.
Since I stopped almost totally to use the standard tests, I replaced them by listening to consonance, activityu, color may be.

WHat I believe is that thos partial match tests are always in a closee ballpark, but they do not really prove us the interval is nicely tuned.

I stick with progressive large intervals of course, wanting mostly none of them to be aggressively shrilling.

But that is also an unison question at that point.

You may know the freeom sensation that it gives to be tuning by musical output.

I think I take the consonance level, and that is that part that I temper, not some beats speed difference, and anyway it can be so small difference I dont believe the ear can really precisely denote it.

Regards


Professional of the profession.
Foo Foo specialist
I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
Re: CHAS for Dummies [Re: Gadzar] #2277380
05/17/14 07:37 AM
05/17/14 07:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Gadzar
Here are the notes measured in the Melodigrand. As you can see the first partial of the lower notes is not audible. Thus it is not possible to tune 3:1 P12s in the bass.

iH Melodigrand



Yes, I see your point.

Re: CHAS for Dummies [Re: Olek] #2277381
05/17/14 07:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Olek
Originally Posted by prout
Originally Posted by Olek
[
a 3!2 or a 6:4 fifth is not something with a meaning, to me, this is not even a 5th . A fifth is an interval with a slow beat.

A beat is periodic energy fluctuation whatever the number of composites it contains.



Isaac, I like that last sentence of yours. When you tune an interval, do you aim for the most calm sound, or the most energy in the sound, or the best colour in the sound? Or, do you tune the interval differently in different places on the keyboard?


I think I take the consonance level, and that is that part that I temper, not some beats speed difference, and anyway it can be so small difference I dont believe the ear can really precisely denote it.

Regards


I am finding that the tempering (stretch) required for ET to have consonance in the multiple octaves/fifths (I am thinking of arpeggios) is different from the stretch needed in another temperament (Young in my case) since the fifths are of different sizes.

Re: CHAS for Dummies [Re: pinkfloydhomer] #2277408
05/17/14 09:44 AM
05/17/14 09:44 AM
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YEs I think a differnt range of consonances.

Tuning by Young or WT temperament is an appreciable experiment for the one used to the ET compromizing.

That is what I mean saying one may experience some freedom doing so.

ANd then I would suppose that kind of freedom can be taken for use when tuning ET (within margins of course)


yes consonance in ET is very strong betwween octaves twelves and all the doublings. That may be how I can precisely tune a 6th octave pure nd lining well just by listening to the tone quality of the note. I just refrain to "raise in turns" in some extreme stretch. Then 3 or 4 octaves span are just in place.

I was surprised to discover that the octave can be so much a good tool for tuning. But the habit of listening to the partials coupling "purity" helps for that of course.

in arpeggios, top note can have a somehow "tempezred" venue, but it does not sound flat as I could notice beforethen.

I believe that the initial mediums octave allow the room for that large span. Enlarging the mediums gives some security in regard of beats progression 'and settling) But it can make the harmony more "static" or "straight" .
Thze fact that low 4:2 and high 2:1 together seem to rule the twelve in a "tempered " feeking is for me an excellent foundation.

Best regards

BTW Gadzar, you did send a sample of very nicely tuned intervals a few years ago. DO you think using an ETD did change a little then way you listen now ?




Professional of the profession.
Foo Foo specialist
I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
Re: CHAS for Dummies [Re: Olek] #2277422
05/17/14 10:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Olek


in arpeggios, top note can have a somehow "tempezred" venue, but it does not sound flat as I could notice before then.



This is an interesting psycho-acoustic phenomenon I hear all the time. A full range arpeggio A0-A7 for example) makes the top note sound in tune to me, but playing a small range arpeggio (A4-A7) makes the same top note sound flat to me. Do other people hear this a well?

Re: CHAS for Dummies [Re: Olek] #2277482
05/17/14 12:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Olek
BTW Gadzar, you did send a sample of very nicely tuned intervals a few years ago. DO you think using an ETD did change a little then way you listen now ?


Thank you Isaac. For me the ETD has been an obstacle in developping my hearing skills and a tool to make money.

The more I use the ETD the less I hear.

I use it to quickly tune the first pass, mostly pitch raises, and then, if I have the time and the mood, I do aurally the fine tuning.

But definitely the ETD has shown me how a given interval should sound. For example if I want to hear the difference between a 6:3 octave and a 4:2. With the ETD they are really easy to tune and then carefully listen to the differences.

It helps also to study the amount of stretch needed by a given piano. Auraly speaking iH is transparent or invisible. When you tune by ear you can only hear if a interval is pure or tempered, if you measure a pure sounding interval you find out that it is actually stretched and you see by how much.

In particular for the tuning of the initial A3A4 octave, if I tune this octave as clean as possible and then I measure it with the ETD, I've found that in small pianos it is often a 2:1/4:2 balance. And in large pianos it is a 4:2/6:3.

But the ETD has a great disadvantage in that you can tune en entire piano without listening except for the unisons.

If I'd never used an ETD I bet my hearing skills had developed more in less time.

Another important issue is that the tuning hammer technique is different for aural tuning than for visual tuning. In particular I am more conscient of what is happening in the NSL when I tune by ear.

When tuning with the ETD I seldom have to shim o crak a unison. This is an almost "by ear" resource.

But what I see as the most valuable advantage of the ETD is that you can use it to learn to set the pitch and tune the temperament by ear. It is a good, objectif, impartial, consistent and reliable judge that tells you how well or bad you are doing it.


Rafael Melo
Piano Technician
rafaelmelo@afinacionpianos.com.mx

Serving Mexico City and suburbs.

http://www.afinacionpianos.com.mx
Re: CHAS for Dummies [Re: prout] #2277851
05/18/14 09:45 AM
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Originally Posted by prout
Originally Posted by Olek


in arpeggios, top note can have a somehow "tempezred" venue, but it does not sound flat as I could notice before then.



This is an interesting psycho-acoustic phenomenon I hear all the time. A full range arpeggio A0-A7 for example) makes the top note sound in tune to me, but playing a small range arpeggio (A4-A7) makes the same top note sound flat to me. Do other people hear this a well?


I believe that tuning with open unison (a term visibly not m¨any understand here) allows the piano to be more reactive to its own iH. I see no other reason why I have no real justness problems between basses and treble.

NOt anymore anyway since I worked CHAS tuning.

WHenever I test resonance of unplayed notes both directions (ghosting) , I find them very immediate very active and if beating it is slow enough or discrete enough not to be boithering.



Trying to tune pianos as if they had 2 strings is very frustrating. I believe that is why Well tunings are appreciated, as they reinstall some resonance where it is reduced with too straight tuning (unless it have been done with a very precise structure, in that case they color the tuning with a strong but dry attack mode)



Professional of the profession.
Foo Foo specialist
I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
Re: CHAS for Dummies [Re: prout] #2278263
05/19/14 06:13 AM
05/19/14 06:13 AM
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Originally Posted by prout
Originally Posted by Olek


in arpeggios, top note can have a somehow "tempezred" venue, but it does not sound flat as I could notice before then.



This is an interesting psycho-acoustic phenomenon I hear all the time. A full range arpeggio A0-A7 for example) makes the top note sound in tune to me, but playing a small range arpeggio (A4-A7) makes the same top note sound flat to me. Do other people hear this a well?


What I notice is that A7 sounds very different when playing an upward, A0-A7, arpeggio than playing a downward A7-A0 arpeggio and then repeating A7. If you tune aurally pure octaves, A#7 sounds much better than A7 after a A7-A0 arpeggio. But on most pianos, it is best to go no lower than A1, and for that matter skip C#2.


Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?
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