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Re: Why are Henle editions so expensive? [Re: rocket88] #1891428 05/04/12 11:12 PM
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Originally Posted by rocket88
... there is no one size fits all...plus, Urtexts are usually somewhat advanced repertoire, so pianists at that level should be able to figure their own fingering out.

Well perhaps. I've always used Henle for Bach (Tovey/Craxton for Beethoven, Peters for Chopin and Liszt) and the few times I have changed fingerings in their Bach for something which at the time seemed preferable, down the line I have discovered to my horror that the Henle fingering was better!


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Re: Why are Henle editions so expensive? [Re: Jolteon] #1891435 05/04/12 11:19 PM
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Sometimes it is better, thats for sure. But...especially if the original had no fingering, I don't want it or need it.

I have always wished that they would have no fingering whatsoever in the main body of the book, with an appendix in the back that contains the same notation, in perhaps smaller font, with the fingering inserted, (in large bold), so the pianist could if so desired add it in to the main body.

Last edited by rocket88; 05/04/12 11:40 PM. Reason: clarity

Piano teacher.
Re: Why are Henle editions so expensive? [Re: rocket88] #1891453 05/05/12 12:13 AM
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Originally Posted by rocket88
Sometimes it is better, thats for sure. But...especially if the original had no fingering, I don't want it or need it.

In theory I very much agree, and good on you for always making the effort to find your own way.

Otherwise, since the Henle Bach editions have a general reputation for intelligent fingerings (I have no experience with the Beethoven or other Henle editions), sometimes it's a matter of expediency. Learning several of the Partitas, English Suites, and WTC were very much expedited by practising those fingerings from the start. (I have already mentioned that when I thought I knew better, it was not the case later on.)

Getting slightly OT, the various editions of the Bach organ works have always been a contentious issue with organists. At one end, the Dupré edition is laboriously fingered, whereas the Widor-Schweitzer edition is unfingered. Some organists -as you do on the piano- claim that the lack of fingering in the W-S edition gives one a certain freedom, yet Dupré's fingering (for almost every note) is a marvel of logic and economy of hand movement. The man was an astounding organist, and a very great teacher.


Jason
Re: Why are Henle editions so expensive? [Re: rocket88] #1891516 05/05/12 03:40 AM
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Originally Posted by rocket88
Sometimes it is better, thats for sure. But...especially if the original had no fingering, I don't want it or need it.

I have always wished that they would have no fingering whatsoever in the main body of the book, with an appendix in the back that contains the same notation, in perhaps smaller font, with the fingering inserted, (in large bold), so the pianist could if so desired add it in to the main body.


IIRC, Baerenreiter's Bach editions come in two versions, with or without fingerings. So, at least for some, that choice is available. I wish it were more generally the case.

Re: Why are Henle editions so expensive? [Re: Jolteon] #1891584 05/05/12 08:44 AM
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hat tip to lilylady for providing this in another forum

this is absolutely fascinating - and what a cool job!



music engraving


accompanist/organist.. a non-MTNA teacher to a few

love and peace, Õun (apple in Estonian)
Re: Why are Henle editions so expensive? [Re: apple*] #1891591 05/05/12 08:59 AM
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Just enjoyed both videos.

What a craft engraving is/was. And all backwards.

I have two plates that seem to be copper wire on some form of lead. Seems to be from school music books (small with words) that I cherish. Bought them for $6 each at an antique show.

I saw what the Henle's go for, but you cannot choose what they send and need to order from a retail distributor.

Wonder if they do tours? They seem to have quite a collection to view (via Wiki)



"Music gives a soul to the universe, wings to the mind, flight to the imagination, and life to everything."
Re: Why are Henle editions so expensive? [Re: argerichfan] #1891709 05/05/12 01:11 PM
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Originally Posted by argerichfan
[...]
Otherwise, since the Henle Bach editions have a general reputation for intelligent fingerings (I have no experience with the Beethoven or other Henle editions), sometimes it's a matter of expediency. Learning several of the Partitas, English Suites, and WTC were very much expedited by practising those fingerings from the start. (I have already mentioned that when I thought I knew better, it was not the case later on.)
[...]


I was experimenting with fingering in a particularly awkward (for me) passage in a Chopin Etude I'm working on at the moment, and pencilled in Eleanor Bailie's fingering which, upon first reading, made much more sense than that suggested by the Henle editor. I continute to stumble over the silly little passage and thought this morning that I would try to look objectively at the Henle. It works better than Bailie's suggestion and, once I get used to it, may solve the problem.

Several of my summer-session teachers have suggested that Henle, good for so many things, is generally sought after for fingerings.

Regards,


BruceD
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Re: Why are Henle editions so expensive? [Re: BruceD] #2277546 05/17/14 04:17 PM
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Originally Posted by BruceD

Several of my summer-session teachers have suggested that Henle, good for so many things, is generally sought after for fingerings.


I have to tell you, I really hate distribution of passages between hands, that are not written by the composer, but fingered this way by the editor and indicated using those ugly little brackets. And I have found a distubringly large amount of them in newer Henle volumes.

Last edited by Liszt_BG; 05/17/14 04:18 PM.
Re: Why are Henle editions so expensive? [Re: Vktmzkf932] #2277550 05/17/14 04:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Liszt_BG
Originally Posted by BruceD

Several of my summer-session teachers have suggested that Henle, good for so many things, is generally sought after for fingerings.


I have to tell you, I really hate distribution of passages between hands, that are not written by the composer, but fingered this way by the editor and indicated using those ugly little brackets. And I have found a distubringly large amount of them in newer Henle volumes.


Everyone is different. Regardless of which edition I use - I usually end up working out my own fingering. smile


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Re: Why are Henle editions so expensive? [Re: Vktmzkf932] #2277688 05/17/14 11:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Liszt_BG
Originally Posted by BruceD

Several of my summer-session teachers have suggested that Henle, good for so many things, is generally sought after for fingerings.


I have to tell you, I really hate distribution of passages between hands, that are not written by the composer, but fingered this way by the editor and indicated using those ugly little brackets. And I have found a distubringly large amount of them in newer Henle volumes.
Oh but it's usually the composers that don't have a clue on how to distribute the hands (or to put fingerings)! laugh

Re: Why are Henle editions so expensive? [Re: Vktmzkf932] #2277880 05/18/14 12:09 PM
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I was under the impression that most composers didn't include fingerings anyway?

Re: Why are Henle editions so expensive? [Re: Jolteon] #2277998 05/18/14 04:52 PM
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Yes, but what about Chopin, Liszt, Rachmaninov, Brahms - they all wrote fingerings on places they deemed needed them. Not that you are obliged to follow them. Example: look at La Campanella (to quote a popular piece) in Sauer's edition, and compare to the original or Busoni edition (NOT Busoni transcription). In this case the facilitation by Sauer IMO defeats the purpose of the etude.
TLDR: I think pianist composers' original distribution/fingering should be kept in tact, if not to play it this way, at least to familiarize oneself with the original idea, as even these seemingly purely technical issues affect the musical idea of the piece.

Re: Why are Henle editions so expensive? [Re: Vktmzkf932] #2278308 05/19/14 09:25 AM
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Fair point. The only Henle I have is the WTC Book 1, where I appreciate Schiff's fingering as otherwise there would be none.
For Chopin I use the Polish National Edition including both editorial fingering and Chopin's fingering, which is handy to compare.

Re: Why are Henle editions so expensive? [Re: Vktmzkf932] #2278321 05/19/14 10:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Liszt_BG
Yes, but what about Chopin, Liszt, Rachmaninov, Brahms - they all wrote fingerings on places they deemed needed them. Not that you are obliged to follow them.[...]


Rachmaninov? I have several editions of Rachmaninov - Preludes, Etudes, Transcriptions and Sonatas - and I don't see a single fingering indication anywhere.

In fact, I thought the general knowledge was that Rachmaninov never indicated fingerings in his printed scores and, for suggestions, one would have to buy an edited edition, which is what I did (Peters, Ruth Laredo) for fingering suggestions for the Preludes.

Regards,


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Re: Why are Henle editions so expensive? [Re: BruceD] #2278562 05/19/14 08:26 PM
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Originally Posted by BruceD
Originally Posted by Liszt_BG
Yes, but what about Chopin, Liszt, Rachmaninov, Brahms - they all wrote fingerings on places they deemed needed them. Not that you are obliged to follow them.[...]


Rachmaninov? I have several editions of Rachmaninov - Preludes, Etudes, Transcriptions and Sonatas - and I don't see a single fingering indication anywhere.

In fact, I thought the general knowledge was that Rachmaninov never indicated fingerings in his printed scores and, for suggestions, one would have to buy an edited edition, which is what I did (Peters, Ruth Laredo) for fingering suggestions for the Preludes.



Some editors have played a trick on you, then, because Rachmaninoff did offer fingerings in many spots scattered throughout his music. And they are often very interesting and worth learning, IMO. Even the generally poor edition of the Preludes and ETs that Dover reprinted has his fingerings.

In editorial comments for the Russian Music Publishers Critical Edition, the editor mentioned that Rachmaninoff was quite proud of the fingerings he worked out for his pieces.


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