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Re: What is the correct pronunciation of Henle (the publisher)?
currawong #2275293 05/13/14 06:31 AM
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Originally Posted by currawong
Originally Posted by Mark_C
If you say "Hayn-leh" anywhere in the U.S. (and I'd guess also in the UK), it'll sound either like an affectation or like you're a German who doesn't know how it's said in these parts. I realize that many people wouldn't necessarily care about that....
I certainly don't, and I don't really see why pronouncing a word/name as it would be pronounced in its country of origin should be seen as affected.


I don't think it is necessarily affected, but it is possible that listeners may not know what you are talking about.

Do you say names of cities as they are pronounced by their native residents?


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Re: What is the correct pronunciation of Henle (the publisher)?
malkin #2275300 05/13/14 06:52 AM
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Originally Posted by malkin
Originally Posted by currawong
I certainly don't, and I don't really see why pronouncing a word/name as it would be pronounced in its country of origin should be seen as affected.


I don't think it is necessarily affected, but it is possible that listeners may not know what you are talking about.

Do you say names of cities as they are pronounced by their native residents?


Well, do people know what they are talking about when the name of the city is pronounced by native residents?


Re: What is the correct pronunciation of Henle (the publisher)?
Stubbie #2275348 05/13/14 08:01 AM
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Mark_C, it all depends on where in the world you are and with whom you are trying to communicate. Of particular note: even the Japanese know how to say it correctly. That might be a "foreign" word to you, and it might sound strange to you because no one around you pronounces it correctly, but that has no bearing on how it should be pronounced: hen-leh (with essentially the same sounding vowels) or hayn-lay (if that is how you want to write it), or hen-le (it's all the same pronunciation using different spellings, which does not sound like a female chicken).

Re: What is the correct pronunciation of Henle (the publisher)?
Mark_C #2275386 05/13/14 09:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Mark_C
Originally Posted by currawong
....I don't really see why pronouncing a word/name as it would be pronounced in its country of origin should be seen as affected.

Forget the "why" or the "should be"; just think of the "would be." smile

Do you see why saying "ParEE" for Paris would be seen as an affectation? (Except when being wry or some such.)

Do you see why saying Rudolf "Zayrkin" would be seen as an affectation?

Maybe you see the "why" of those more than the why of "HAYN-leh."
But even if you don't (as I don't -- I see them equally), I imagine you see the "would be." smile

But heck, don't take it from me -- maybe just try coming here and saying "HAYN-leh," and check out the likely reactions. grin

Mark is right. Here in the states, any attempt to pronounce foreign-sounding names "correctly" is an invitation to ridicule.

I remember stopping in Dubois, Pennsylvania one time, and when I referred to it as DU-BWAH, a couple of the locals broke out laughing and said it's DU-BOYS.

And I also remember my parents always referring to Volkswagens as FOLKS-VAHGENS. Well, it's true that Vs should be pronounced like Fs, and Ws like Vs, but when I started using my parents' pronunciation, my friends called me stupid because I couldn't pronounce the name of a car correctly. I dropped that one in a hurry, and it's been VOLKS-WAGON ever since! grin

Re: What is the correct pronunciation of Henle (the publisher)?
Old Man #2275394 05/13/14 09:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Old Man
Originally Posted by Mark_C
Originally Posted by currawong
....I don't really see why pronouncing a word/name as it would be pronounced in its country of origin should be seen as affected.

Forget the "why" or the "should be"; just think of the "would be." smile

Do you see why saying "ParEE" for Paris would be seen as an affectation? (Except when being wry or some such.)

Do you see why saying Rudolf "Zayrkin" would be seen as an affectation?

Maybe you see the "why" of those more than the why of "HAYN-leh."
But even if you don't (as I don't -- I see them equally), I imagine you see the "would be." smile

But heck, don't take it from me -- maybe just try coming here and saying "HAYN-leh," and check out the likely reactions. grin

Mark is right. Here in the states, any attempt to pronounce foreign-sounding names "correctly" is an invitation to ridicule.

I remember stopping in Dubois, Pennsylvania one time, and when I referred to it as DU-BWAH, a couple of the locals broke out laughing and said it's DU-BOYS.

And I also remember my parents always referring to Volkswagens as FOLKS-VAHGENS. Well, it's true that Vs should be pronounced like Fs, and Ws like Vs, but when I started using my parents' pronunciation, my friends called me stupid because I couldn't pronounce the name of a car correctly. I dropped that one in a hurry, and it's been VOLKS-WAGON ever since! grin


It's definitely Doo-BOYS in Pennsylvania! But it's du-BWA anywhere else. Especially if I need to refer to something as being from the forest, heh.

Paris is PA-riss in English, English R, big ol' broad, flat American A. But I'm perfectly capable of it in French and would say it Pah-REE in Paris, French R. And in Spain I refer to it as Pah-DEESE (well, not quite a D, but the non-rolled Spanish R. It would be weird and affected to do it any other way, at least to me. It's Muh-DRID in English, and Mah-DLEETH (more or less; it's not really an "L" and the "th" is kind of a stopped sound against the teeth) in Spanish. It would feel REALLY weird and affected to refer to Madrid in Spanish in English.

Ballet is the same in English and French, but I pronounce the "T" in Spain.

I learned that a grand piano is a "flügel" in German and I just love that word. I gotta figure out a reason to use it more. It's a terrific word. smile

Last edited by TwoSnowflakes; 05/13/14 09:27 AM.
Re: What is the correct pronunciation of Henle (the publisher)?
Mark_C #2275395 05/13/14 09:23 AM
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Originally Posted by currawong
....I don't really see why pronouncing a word/name as it would be pronounced in its country of origin should be seen as affected.


Because American english borrows so many foreign words from other languages, it becomes commonplace to make-up (i.e., Americanize) the pronunciation as well. Because the US is so us-centric, pronouncing the word 'correctly' often gets viewed as affectation, but only here in the US!



Re: What is the correct pronunciation of Henle (the publisher)?
A454.7 #2275425 05/13/14 10:28 AM
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Would anyone in English-speaking countries pronounce Mozart the French way, as "Mohzhaaar"? grin

At least even the BBC announcers don't call (Manuel de) Falla as "far-lah", but "Fah-yah" (or something like that). But I remember the time when a stalwart Radio 3 presenter who pronounced Jorge Bolet the Cuban (Spanish) way ("Your-hay"), only to be abruptly corrected and told to anglicised it to "George" - because that's how Jorge wants it. And similarly, this year, all pronunciations of Marc-André Hamelin on the BBC have been anglicised to Hammerlynne, instead of ''Ah-mere-larngh", because said Hamelin has requested it so.......(btw, how do you Americans say his name?)

Do we say Wien ("ween") or Vienna? Roma or Rome? (When in Rome...... wink .). Munich or München?

Compromises, compromises.......


"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
Re: What is the correct pronunciation of Henle (the publisher)?
TwoSnowflakes #2275426 05/13/14 10:28 AM
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Originally Posted by TwoSnowflakes
Originally Posted by Old Man
Originally Posted by Mark_C
Originally Posted by currawong
....I don't really see why pronouncing a word/name as it would be pronounced in its country of origin should be seen as affected.

Forget the "why" or the "should be"; just think of the "would be." smile

Do you see why saying "ParEE" for Paris would be seen as an affectation? (Except when being wry or some such.)

Do you see why saying Rudolf "Zayrkin" would be seen as an affectation?

Maybe you see the "why" of those more than the why of "HAYN-leh."
But even if you don't (as I don't -- I see them equally), I imagine you see the "would be." smile

But heck, don't take it from me -- maybe just try coming here and saying "HAYN-leh," and check out the likely reactions. grin

Mark is right. Here in the states, any attempt to pronounce foreign-sounding names "correctly" is an invitation to ridicule.

I remember stopping in Dubois, Pennsylvania one time, and when I referred to it as DU-BWAH, a couple of the locals broke out laughing and said it's DU-BOYS.

And I also remember my parents always referring to Volkswagens as FOLKS-VAHGENS. Well, it's true that Vs should be pronounced like Fs, and Ws like Vs, but when I started using my parents' pronunciation, my friends called me stupid because I couldn't pronounce the name of a car correctly. I dropped that one in a hurry, and it's been VOLKS-WAGON ever since! grin


It's definitely Doo-BOYS in Pennsylvania! But it's du-BWA anywhere else. Especially if I need to refer to something as being from the forest, heh.



It's also du-BWA when referring to the composer, Pierre Max Dubois, and I don't think it would be considered affected in most places to pronounce it that way. That may be true even if one is in Pennsylvania.


Re: What is the correct pronunciation of Henle (the publisher)?
bennevis #2275449 05/13/14 11:03 AM
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Originally Posted by bennevis
Would anyone in English-speaking countries pronounce Mozart the French way, as "Mohzhaaar"? grin

At least even the BBC announcers don't call (Manuel de) Falla as "far-lah", but "Fah-yah" (or something like that). But I remember the time when a stalwart Radio 3 presenter who pronounced Jorge Bolet the Cuban (Spanish) way ("Your-hay"), only to be abruptly corrected and told to anglicised it to "George" - because that's how Jorge wants it. And similarly, this year, all pronunciations of Marc-André Hamelin on the BBC have been anglicised to Hammerlynne, instead of ''Ah-mere-larngh", because said Hamelin has requested it so.......(btw, how do you Americans say his name?)

Do we say Wien ("ween") or Vienna? Roma or Rome? (When in Rome...... wink .). Munich or München?

Compromises, compromises.......

I wonder about Georg Solti. I often heard it pronounced GAY-org, but maybe he too would've preferred good 'ol "George". smile

Re: What is the correct pronunciation of Henle (the publisher)?
Old Man #2275457 05/13/14 11:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Old Man

I wonder about Georg Solti. I often heard it pronounced GAY-org, but maybe he too would've preferred good 'ol "George". smile

In the UK, he was always called good ol' George.

As he was for some time the music director of the Royal Opera House, I assume that that's the way he wanted his name to be pronounced. Nobody - not even the Beeb - dared to challenge him wink : they even cleared the schedules in 1994 just so that La Traviata could be broadcast live from the ROH, starring his new protégé Angela Gheorghiu......


"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
Re: What is the correct pronunciation of Henle (the publisher)?
bennevis #2275502 05/13/14 01:05 PM
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Delighted to see so much concern about German pronunciation smile

To add to the confusion:

Originally Posted by bennevis
Do we say Wien ("ween") or Vienna?


The German language does not have an equivalent for the "w" sound in English. So if you want to really show off your German skills, say "veen"!

...and if you want to even be mistaken for an Austrian, say veeeeen smile


Re: What is the correct pronunciation of Henle (the publisher)?
Stubbie #2275610 05/13/14 04:50 PM
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Good discussion, thanks. HEN-lee is most likely what I'd use if I asked for an edition in my local music store. That's the "thought" pronunciation I came up with when thinking about it, but my mental guesses can be quite unreliable (I've made some doozies of mistakes). That there isn't a universally accepted pronunciation is interesting as well.


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Re: What is the correct pronunciation of Henle (the publisher)?
pianovirus #2275681 05/13/14 07:19 PM
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Originally Posted by pianovirus
Delighted to see so much concern about German pronunciation smile

To add to the confusion:

Originally Posted by bennevis
Do we say Wien ("ween") or Vienna?


The German language does not have an equivalent for the "w" sound in English. So if you want to really show off your German skills, say "veen"!

...and if you want to even be mistaken for an Austrian, say veeeeen smile



And if I want the orange book, not the blue book, I can avoid saying Hayn-leh altogether and just ask for the Veeeeeeeener edition, yes? smile


Re: What is the correct pronunciation of Henle (the publisher)?
TwoSnowflakes #2275698 05/13/14 07:49 PM
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Originally Posted by TwoSnowflakes
And if I want the orange book, not the blue book, I can avoid saying Hayn-leh altogether and just ask for the Veeeeeeeener edition, yes? smile


lol...wiener edition...jo, des is' voll a Schas! I werd' afoch sogen: gibt ma bitte die Werner kraxeln do. Seems to work for me; what other people say is up to them. :-p

Re: What is the correct pronunciation of Henle (the publisher)?
A454.7 #2275767 05/13/14 10:11 PM
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Originally Posted by A443
Originally Posted by currawong
....I don't really see why pronouncing a word/name as it would be pronounced in its country of origin should be seen as affected.
Because American english borrows so many foreign words from other languages, it becomes commonplace to make-up (i.e., Americanize) the pronunciation as well. Because the US is so us-centric, pronouncing the word 'correctly' often gets viewed as affectation, but only here in the US!
Ah, as I suspected. smile

I can see I'll have to be careful what I say when next in the US. I'll put foreign words on my list, together with "remember to call that beachy item of footwear flip-flops instead of thongs". laugh


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Re: What is the correct pronunciation of Henle (the publisher)?
currawong #2275772 05/13/14 10:18 PM
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Originally Posted by currawong
Ah, as I suspected. smile

I can see I'll have to be careful what I say when next in the US. I'll put foreign words on my list....

You would get special dispensation for being a "foreigner." grin

Which Stubbie, being a midwestern U.S.'er, wouldn't!

BTW, I spent 4 years out there, and never heard it said other than "Henley." smile

Quote
...., together with "remember to call that beachy item of footwear flip-flops instead of thongs". laugh

I call them "why do these things exist." ha

Re: What is the correct pronunciation of Henle (the publisher)?
Mark_C #2275792 05/13/14 11:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Mark_C
I call them "why do these things exist." ha
They exist so that when you've finished your beach walk and paddled in the surf, you can put them on your feet while you walk over the stones to get back to your beach hut... (thinks: wish I was still there on the beach as I was a few days ago, instead of being here with Stuff To Do.)


Du holde Kunst...
Re: What is the correct pronunciation of Henle (the publisher)?
Stubbie #2275801 05/14/14 12:00 AM
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Well, Victor Borge pronounces him 'Fliszt,' and it's for the same reason we don't say 'M. Ozart.'


Michael

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Re: What is the correct pronunciation of Henle (the publisher)?
TwoSnowflakes #2275804 05/14/14 12:13 AM
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Originally Posted by TwoSnowflakes

I learned that a grand piano is a "flügel" in German and I just love that word. I gotta figure out a reason to use it more. It's a terrific word. smile


It's something like that in my language too and it's extremely annoying! Every time I talk about getting a new piano, people ask me if I have changed my mind about getting the grand. They just don't get it that a grand is a piano as well mad

Re: What is the correct pronunciation of Henle (the publisher)?
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Well...I don't think "affectation" is truly perceived unless it's absent in the culture; Beethoven...pronounced bait-hove-un, not beef-oven? Surely an affectation... laugh Um...and the German "ch"; Bach isn't the same as batch *at all*. Personally, I pronounce it how I naturally would until I discover how it's pronounced at the source of pronunciation; if it's a person then pronounce it how *they* wish, if a place then in the style of that accent, but incorporating your own accent into it...I mean, um, I find the unnaturalness of how this woman talks quite...off-putting...and it's certainly a schism of accent and affectation; pronunciation is transient and, as such, should bleed, in my opinion, across your words. Um...I pronounce it closer to Hin-luh then HEN-luh, but there's no accounting for personal accent laugh Sure, if you pronounce a lot of German words in a row when you say a few English ones, I feel at least, it's natural to catch yourself putting those "t"s in the middle of those "it"s, but to slowly slosh your words around *within* your natural accent, not have it cutting...but that's just my opinion. I like accents ^_^
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