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Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions [Re: AB Forum Recital] #2274843
05/12/14 01:50 PM
05/12/14 01:50 PM
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 7,828
Northern England.
peterws Offline
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Just out of interest, are you lot getting any practice done? If not, you may have to edit . . . . . smile

Now, if there are serious issues concerning those with many years experience being on this site let me make it clear imo - there are many who are inexperienced who are already overtaking some of us old lags . . . good luck to ya, and well done! I know for myself, I aint going to improve much. I just do it for fun, and indeed, there have been improvements as a result of me being here taking part in recitals etc. which I`m very glad about.

Any more themed recitals coming up? Any ideas we might chew over?

Last edited by peterws; 05/12/14 01:57 PM.

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Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions [Re: Sand Tiger] #2274860
05/12/14 02:11 PM
05/12/14 02:11 PM
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 924
North Carolina
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Opus45 Offline
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Originally Posted by Sand Tiger
...Why are there so many big fish swimming in the beginner pond? Why do they have to cheat? It is rather disgusting to me. I felt so down the first time I listened to the recital. The percentage of near flawless performances felt so discouraging.

Now I am finding out some of the little secrets. That there are those with 10+ years of experience, uploading heavily edited versions and proud of it. Sheesh...


Man I had the exact opposite experience the first time I heard the recital performances. I was INSPIRED and ENCOURAGED!

If there's something most of us here have in common is the knowledge of how hard it is to learn to play the piano as an ADULT BEGINNER. Probably as difficult as it would be to learn a new language.

How sad it would be if after 10+ years of efforts we could only hope to achieve level one or two proficiency, and even sadder if they kicked you out of here once you did advance.

Last edited by Opus45; 05/12/14 02:12 PM.

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Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions [Re: AB Forum Recital] #2274879
05/12/14 02:38 PM
05/12/14 02:38 PM
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Whizbang Offline
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Ganddalf, looks like you typoed your name in your submission.


Whizbang
amateur ragtime pianist
https://www.youtube.com/user/Aeschala
Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions [Re: Opus45] #2274889
05/12/14 02:54 PM
05/12/14 02:54 PM
Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 301
Austin, Texas
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ajames Offline

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Originally Posted by Opus45
Originally Posted by Sand Tiger
...Why are there so many big fish swimming in the beginner pond? Why do they have to cheat? It is rather disgusting to me. I felt so down the first time I listened to the recital. The percentage of near flawless performances felt so discouraging.

Now I am finding out some of the little secrets. That there are those with 10+ years of experience, uploading heavily edited versions and proud of it. Sheesh...


Man I had the exact opposite experience the first time I heard the recital performances. I was INSPIRED and ENCOURAGED!

If there's something most of us here have in common is the knowledge of how hard it is to learn to play the piano as an ADULT BEGINNER. Probably as difficult as it would be to learn a new language.

How sad it would be if after 10+ years of efforts we could only hope to achieve level one or two proficiency, and even sadder if they kicked you out of here once you did advance.


+1 thumb Please don't kick me out if I get better at piano. Pianist Corner- they're *mean* over there..... eek


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Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions [Re: AB Forum Recital] #2274892
05/12/14 02:57 PM
05/12/14 02:57 PM
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 603
Italy
torquenale Offline
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Italy
Tomorrow afternoon the technician is coming and my piano will be tuned; I hope I'll have some time on Wednesday afternoon to try and record my piece on the acoustic, then I can submit it in the evening - being in Europe I have half of the night smile.
Otherwise I'll submit the recording made on the DP.


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Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions [Re: AB Forum Recital] #2274911
05/12/14 03:26 PM
05/12/14 03:26 PM
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 4,368
mr_super-hunky Offline
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After not sleeping a wink last night thinking about this topic, I came to a clear revelation/realization.

What is going on here is the 'co-mingling' of two separate topics that are unavoidably getting smooshed together into one. And the result is a bit messy. I'd like the opportunity to separate these two topics and then comment on them individually. It's going to be a bit lengthy, but what else do you have going on right now?

First Topic: (of two SEPARATE topics.)

The first topic of discussion was to define what the original purpose of the quarterly recitals was. The person who came up with the original concept clearly answered that question. He said..."The purpose of the ABF Quarterly Recitals is to provide a 'snapshot' of our current playing abilities over time in which we can measure our progress. Since that was the original purpose (which was clearly stated nearly a decade ago) then that purpose can never just magically change. It was the ORIGINAL purpose.

Second Topic: (which is getting mixed in with the first)

The second topic being tossed around (which has nothing to do with the first topic) is the discussion regarding 'editing' your performance after the fact. People are saying how most, if not all major musicians performances are 'studio produced' for the best attainable everlasting sound and how it shouldn't matter if we fix a few flubs here and there as well. Why?, because we don't want those flubs in our everlasting recordings either. That's obvious.

I can completely understand the logic behind this and in many ways I agree with it. But that doesn't mean just take the original concept of the ABF recitals (which was the first topic) and start re-writing history by completely changing what it's original purpose and intention was.

The answer and solution is simple. It's the same as it has been the last few times this discussion came up. We almost HAVE to allow editing just to make the playing field fair to those who don't edit. But then again, if you really get it, it's the non-TMP (Technically Modified Performance) people who in my opinion still will always have the advantage.


My thoughts on the first topic.

The original purpose will always be the original purpose. It doesn't mean that the guidelines can't change, adapt, and even evolve as everything does over time. It can. but I first want to disclose the reasons for my conviction of staying true to the original intended purpose of these recitals.

When I started as an adult beginner, I started playing on a digital. I was quickly overwhelmed by the endless 'possibilities' of what you could do with a little technology under your fingers. Let's just say we've all seen the mall 'pianist' who can seemingly reproduce an entire orchestra with just a finger or two.

I was drawn to the simplicity and purity of just the opposite. Acoustic solo piano.

As a result of being in the right place at the right time when the technology was just becoming available, a group of ABF members actually carried out and implemented the original concept of these recitals and off we went on our piano journey.

The original concept got the blessing of Frank, the Pianoworld owner, and he even agreed to provide the space for the ABF quarterly recital storage that we were going to call the ABF "Time-capsule".

Fast forward a bit. The ABF "Time capsule" recital storage was a concept that nobody did anything about until Sam took it upon himself to create our current day ABF recital index. [A monumental task which this forum will be forever grateful].

The purpose of having recital storage, (the original purpose anyway) was so we could have a way to compare our progress over time. If all of a sudden everyone starts editing, cutting, splicing, overlaying, enhancing etc, .... the original intentions of these recitals will go completely out the window.

Unfortunately, these original intentions which were created nearly a decade ago may no longer be relevant and reflect the current technological capabilities in which many people have at their disposal. The original intentions may no longer even fully represent the overall will of the group. And if this is the case, then they should change.

But even if they do change, the original intentions will not.

My thoughts on the second topic

The second topic (which is being smooshed together with the first even though they are separate topics) is the topic of 'editing' your music.

'Editing', 'altering', 'enhancing' whatever, it's all the same. You are making slight to possibly dramatic changes to your original recordings. If you are representing these doctored recordings as 'UN-altered', original recordings that represent your true abilities then you are LITERALLY discounting the people who have spent the time and dedication it takes to ACTUALLY perform the piece WITHOUT all the technical surgery post performance. Honest and accurate disclosure should always accompany these creations if you feel you just must do it in a beginners forum.

Personally, it not only might be easier to just practice a piece a little more as opposed to taking the easy way out, but you probably will become a better piano player as a result of your additional efforts.

And correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the core purpose of being on this site to begin with or am I missing something here?






Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions [Re: mr_super-hunky] #2274922
05/12/14 03:45 PM
05/12/14 03:45 PM
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 565
India
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noobpianist90 Offline
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India
Originally Posted by Mr Super-Hunky
Personally, it not only might be easier to just practice a piece a little more as opposed to taking the easy way out, but you probably will become a better piano player as a result of your additional efforts.

And correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the core purpose of being on this site to begin with or am I missing something here?
As a first time participant in the ABF recitals, I agree completely. Learning and improving while enjoying the process is my purpose for playing the piano and participating in this forum.

However, I do not blame those who wish to edit their music in the pursuit of a perfect recording (which of course, does not exist). In the end, if I find the music enjoyable, I have no complaints as to how it was made.

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions [Re: mr_super-hunky] #2274962
05/12/14 04:46 PM
05/12/14 04:46 PM
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 1,654
USA
8
8 Octaves Offline

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USA
All this fuss made me go listen to the past recitals. As a newcomer I feel I haven't earn my right to be too vocal about guidelines, but here are some observations.

After listening to the past recitals while matching performance to participants on this thread, I find there are essentially two groups of people who may want to edit. First group are beginners very uncomfortable with mistakes and mishaps during performance because they are shy. Second group are advance players hanging out here because they find the Pianist Corner far too intimidating, and they play far more musically, and now mistakes and mishaps become a distraction to their musical intentions. We are victims of modern recordings and the genie cannot be put back in the bottle.

For the first group, we should allow editing with the encouragement that they should work on a goal of decreasing number of edits for recitals over time. The reason is that actually lift their performance higher even if it feels like their heads would explode.

For the second group, my own opinion is that they are worried about nothing. Edits may help put the cherry on their dessert but they play well regardless and without the edits, it would be musically inspiring. So the cherry makes a difference, which I can't dispute, but I maintain they are worrying over nothing. If they think by showing their mishaps that their recital now sounds like the beginner who edited out all their mistakes, that doesn't make any sense because the difference between this group and the beginners is so very very obvious.

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions [Re: AB Forum Recital] #2274970
05/12/14 04:58 PM
05/12/14 04:58 PM
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 924
North Carolina
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Opus45 Offline
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Joined: Aug 2005
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North Carolina
It has been years since I've hung around PW but my understanding of the basic difference between the Pianist forum and the ABF forum is not so much a matter of accomplishment but (and this is important I think) rather a matter of having to face challenges unique to everyone who did not have the opportunity or privilege to learn to play the piano as a child.


Jeff
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Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions [Re: AB Forum Recital] #2275016
05/12/14 05:56 PM
05/12/14 05:56 PM
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 533
Bristol, UK
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timmyab Offline
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Bristol, UK
I haven't had time to read all of this discussion so this may have already been suggested.
If this business of editing really upsets people a lot why not split the recital into two sections. One 'live' recital section with video only recordings and one 'non live' section for audio recordings. Or you could just have two separate recitals. Obviously the video recordings are not really live but they are a far more reliable gauge of how well people can play. People who edit (or who haven't got a video camera) can participate just as before but the ultimate goal for everybody would be to post in the video recital (kind of like the ABF premier league). The videos would have to clearly show the hands.

Last edited by timmyab; 05/12/14 06:07 PM.
Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions [Re: AB Forum Recital] #2275022
05/12/14 06:01 PM
05/12/14 06:01 PM
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 1,129
Houston, TX
Ataru074 Offline
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Houston, TX
... Done! 1st take, 1st submission. Recording is stressful!



Private Piano Teacher. MTNA
working on:
Albeniz: Iberia
Beethoven: Op 53
Bartok: Mikrokosmos vol. 5
Debussy: Estampes
Moszkowski: Op 72
Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions [Re: AB Forum Recital] #2275030
05/12/14 06:18 PM
05/12/14 06:18 PM
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 7,203
So. California
jazzwee Offline
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So. California
The reason I've often stated that I do a "One-Take" policy (like a live recital) is that I believe you guys care too much about what other people think and not about your own capabilities and your own goals.

Now, this is an important point in learning because the only way to perform freely in public is to get the ego out of the way. Ego is the biggest source of stress in playing. It is also why the red dot causes a lot of trouble for most. Self-consciousness. Kenny Werner wrote a whole book about this.

I've posted tons of flawed recordings especially early on in my participation. I've learned to not worry about it as long as my "NEXT" posting is better. And it WILL BE if you are practicing. That's my justification for not worrying about my failures. I will always have something better next time.

JMHO.

One other point. As a more experienced player now, when I listen to the recital performances, I'm not particularly concerned about hearing mistakes. I'm thinking more about the playing skills itself related to tone, dynamics, articulation, expressiveness, time, etc. Frankly, you could record yourself 500 times and it is unlikely my impression of your performance would change because the things I listen for are embedded in your subconscious and you do it without thinking. Typically the failures occur in newer skills and it cannot be rushed no matter what you do.

Because of this, I think the pressure to come up with 'perfect' performances is pointless in this setting. I presume it's intended to create a "better" impression from your peers. If it won't change the impression, then I'm not sure why one would bother.

I suppose the fear is that 10 years from now, these recordings would still exist here somewhere. The only way to fix that is keep posting newer recordings that are better and that means constant participation in these recitals.

Several years from now, you will hopefully look back at these performances and see how much you've improved. And all of these concerns about perfection will be immaterial.

Now having said that, my personal opinion is: edit if you want to edit but always know that a more experienced listener will hear you pretty much the same way.


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Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions [Re: AB Forum Recital] #2275040
05/12/14 06:44 PM
05/12/14 06:44 PM
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 6,610
Santa Fe, NM
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jotur Offline
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And just so we know that the ABF is not the only that has these discussions:

Clash of the Bird Watchers: It's eyeballs vs. gadgets. . .

Of course, the minute they said "competitive birdwatching" *I* was outta there laugh

Cathy


Cathy
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Perhaps “more music” is always the answer, no matter what the question might be! - Qwerty53
Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions [Re: AB Forum Recital] #2275050
05/12/14 07:21 PM
05/12/14 07:21 PM
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 4,544
Southeast US
ShiroKuro Offline
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Southeast US
Cathy, too funny! grin


Started piano June 1999.
Proud owner of a Yamaha C2

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Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions [Re: jazzwee] #2275053
05/12/14 07:25 PM
05/12/14 07:25 PM
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 1,654
USA
8
8 Octaves Offline

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USA
+1. Completely agree. That bar may be a bit high for a lot of people though.

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions [Re: 8 Octaves] #2275057
05/12/14 07:40 PM
05/12/14 07:40 PM
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 7,203
So. California
jazzwee Offline
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So. California
Originally Posted by 8 Octaves
+1. Completely agree. That bar may be a bit high for a lot of people though.


I don't mean that everyone should do one-take. I just meant to "not care too much". One-take is just an indication that I mean it.

There's got to be some point where you say (a) It's close enough, or (b) I'll do something easier. For me it's one take. For someone else it could be 5.


Pianoclues.com for Beginners
My Jazz Blog
Hamburg Steinway O, Nord Electro 4 HP

Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions [Re: peterws] #2275063
05/12/14 07:55 PM
05/12/14 07:55 PM
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 2,435
Owen Sound, Ontario
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Greener Offline

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Owen Sound, Ontario
Originally Posted by peterws

Any more themed recitals coming up? Any ideas we might chew over?

We were moving towards 20th century, last I recall. Would Gershwin provide enough material choice?

Originally Posted by peterws

I don't mean that everyone should do one-take. I just meant to "not care too much". One-take is just an indication that I mean it.

Beautiful, I will try and come up with a seal.




Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions [Re: Greener] #2275065
05/12/14 08:04 PM
05/12/14 08:04 PM
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 2,042
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Whizbang Offline
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Posts: 2,042
Originally Posted by Greener
Would Gershwin provide enough material choice?


He would, but, generally speaking, you'll run into copyright issues with his music--free arrangements may be difficult or impossible to find.

Gershwin is a good choice in that he's got offerings for:

* traditional jazz players (lead sheets, improv, ensemble, vocals)
* classical players (preludes, rhapsody in blue [hah!])
* ragtime and early jazz players (rialto ripples and other early gershwin)
* popular arrangements (books and full arrangements available, vocals)

Most of the standards and the classical stuff post-dates the 1923 cutoff date and any simpler arrangements would be covered by publisher copyright.

Last edited by Whizbang; 05/12/14 08:05 PM.

Whizbang
amateur ragtime pianist
https://www.youtube.com/user/Aeschala
Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions [Re: mr_super-hunky] #2275068
05/12/14 08:19 PM
05/12/14 08:19 PM
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 3,512
Australia
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earlofmar Offline
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Australia
Originally Posted by Mr Super-Hunky
After not sleeping a wink last night thinking about this topic, I came to a clear revelation/realization.



It's why I love this site, people are passionate but never bombastic. Have an early night tonight Mr SH.


Following Trying to follow the Ling Ling 40 hour method

Kawai K8 & Kawai Novus NV10


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Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions [Re: mr_super-hunky] #2275074
05/12/14 08:33 PM
05/12/14 08:33 PM
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 842
Pittsburgh,PA
piano_primo_1 Offline
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Pittsburgh,PA
......




Last edited by piano_primo_1; 05/12/14 09:38 PM.

Cheers!!!

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