I'm in

Cathy

The reason there are no steadfast rules for the ABF quarterly recitals is because we are the fun loving bunch. It's the people over in the Pianist Corner who are the stuffy ones; not us.

The concept of our quarterly recitals is just so basic. Play a piece the best you can for your current abilities, record it, and share it with everyone to hear and enjoy. Over time, as you improve, you, along with everyone else will hear and notice your improvements. Something for everyone to appreciate.

What is so difficult to understand with this educational model?

If you must misrepresent your abilities by editing out mistakes, multi-track record difficult sections because it is too difficult to play, splice pre-recorded sections together, all in an Advanced, Intermediate, Beginning level [as in most basic] group, you are pathetic! Seriously. This is the most basic level you can get. It's like cheating in Kindergarten. Even I waited until 3rd or 4th grade to cheat; but not in Kindergarten!

In addition, 'disclosing' that you've done the aforementioned is NOT okay either. Why?, because it was not the original intention of the recitals and is actually counterproductive to what they are trying to accomplish. In addition, it's not fair to everyone else who is accurately representing their abilities and trying their best by submitting an undoctored/unedited recording.

If we, [as a group] want an additional thread to showcase our musical production talents....where you can edit, splice, overdub, multi-track record, acoustically alter sounds, enhance dynamics...and so on... then we could easily start one at any time. Just in the meantime, please don't confuse that possibility with the existing quarterly recitals as they are clearly not the same. Both in their original intent and resulting outcome.

Well, there is no "recital committee" that decides policy. When a change is made, it's only after reading everyone's opinion, and deciding on some consensus if possible. The last change we made was to the title of the recital, adding "Beginner and Beyond", and I only did that after the topic was discussed at length in the forum.

So let's please not get all worked up about editing recordings. I personally think it has been going on since the recitals began, but we'll never know unless the performer shares that fact with us. It's impossible to detect, except maybe by a trained professional.

I spliced together two sections of my Joplin recital submission. I actually took a long break (a nap) between recording them. It's doubtful that anyone could tell without me sharing that info. The recording also had many wrong notes and pregnant pauses, just like all my other recordings. If I ever submit anything that is note perfect, you will know that it was edited!

Any restriction on edited recordings is going to be unenforceable. I certainly will not be the person snooping around and calling out names.

A policy could be stated in the recital text, if we could decide on a consensus, but the process of deciding what to say would be contentious and lead to hurt feelings and possibly restrict participation.

Ultimately, I think we are individuals here. Submit what our conscience tells you is right.

Sam

Seems like the current set of rules has always worked so I doubt it would be worth changing them. We all want the same thing: a high level of engagement and support for the music we care about. No need to get too concerned about the who, what, where, why or how. There are many participants with different skill levels and different reasons for sharing their music. I'm just glad that they do and maybe we should only have a policy to not share how the sausage is made.

I bit more on topic, I made another recording yesterday and I might make it my new submission. It took several days before I could actually get some decent uninterrupted practice where I wasn't completely exhausted. I think I might get another good session today so I'll hold off on resubmitting.

Mr S-H, you know you basically just accused me of misrepresenting myself and cheating, right? I'll try to assume that's not as mean-spirited as it sounds.

Beyond that, you contradict yourself in your post. The ABF recital can't be a "non-stuffy" event with no steadfast rules, and still adhere 100% to your stipulations that no recording be altered in any way.

I think Sam's and Pathfinder's comments are very telling. It never occurred to me to think about it before this thread/this discussion about editing, but as Sam says, editing has probably been going on forever, and we likely have no way of knowing who did or didn't.

Last night, I was very close to deleting my submission from the recital, but I'm glad I didn't. Here's why.

This recording is my musical gift to anyone who is willing to accept it by listening. It's 100% representative of my playing, and I'm proud of it. If you think my teeny-tiny edit might change whether you consider this a "true, live recording" or not, that's ok, and we can talk about that, and if people want, we could talk about where we draw the line about what kind of editing is ok, and what kind isn't. (Because, thanks to this thread, I've had a lot of time to think about that and I now know my own mind, as it were.)

But, if you think my recording is misrepresentative and cheating, please don't listen. Because this recording is the result of my blood-sweat-and-tears devotion to the piano for 15 years and counting, and if you can't accept that at face-value, the way we do when we receive any kind of gift from anyone, then my musical offering is not for you.

But otherwise, please do listen because this is a beautiful piece of music that I love without reservation. And that's why I want to share it with everyone here, in the ABF quarterly recital. Why do I want to share it here in the quarterly recital? Because ABF and these recitals are a huge reason why my playing is what it is today.

I am the lowest of the low participating in the discussion and the recital. I'm with Jotur and Mr. Super-Hunky. My vote is for minimal edits. If a person wants to give us a "gift" go ahead and link that special version in the comments section as the heavily edited version. Share that heavy edit version with your friends. Burn a CD. Whatever. Upload the minimally edited version for the recital. It will still be better than most of the other submissions.

I don't see what the hang up is over doing that. What is this really about? Why are there so many big fish swimming in the beginner pond? Why do they have to cheat? It is rather disgusting to me. I felt so down the first time I listened to the recital. The percentage of near flawless performances felt so discouraging.

Now I am finding out some of the little secrets. That there are those with 10+ years of experience, uploading heavily edited versions and proud of it. Sheesh. That there are those with performance degrees and teachers, submitting to a beginner recital (relabeled as beginners and beyond so those advanced people can keep their self-esteem). All of these people are welcome, I guess.

Heavily edited music is every where. Every commercial studio recording is now done that way and a reason I much prefer live music, or at least a simulation of live music, warts and all. I see the heavily edited commercial music as a plague upon the land, but it isn't going away, it is what it is.

I vote for minimal edits for the uploads. Those wanting to share a gift, link the heavily edited version in the comments section. This gives everyone their cake. I vote that the recital guidelines make this much clearer. If they were clearer from the beginning this situation would never have gotten so far. If people still insist on heavy edits, of course nothing can be done. It just needs to be made clear what is preferred.

I have zero sympathy for those with vast experience that feel the need for heavy edits. If the piece is not ready, full of hesitations after multiple takes, record another piece that is ready. If there is only one minor tiny edit, then upload the version with the one tiny minor flaw. Why is that so difficult? What is the big deal about keeping with the spirit of the recital? Why the need to cheat? To show that you are bigger and better than the rest of us with a cleaner version? Because you are so ashamed of having a tiny flub in any public version? Really? If there is no time to record a clean version, perhaps sit it out. Send the heavily edited version to the monthly piano bar or link it in the comments section of the recital submission.

And no, to me, the edited versions are not representative of your playing. They are representative of your edited playing. Big difference. The difference between live and recorded (or at least the simulation of live).

This sums it up well enough for me.

It may be quite enough to know and maybe even state (as the subject resurfaces from time to time,) that we do not have this expectation within the ABF Beginner and Beyond recitals. On the contrary ... we highly encourage unaltered recordings.

I thought the ABF was a place where everyone was welcome, regardless of playing ability, or years of experience. Guess I was wrong.

Anyway, I have updated my submission. Laurie and I added another movement from the clarinet suite, which I spliced onto the end of the recording and the video. If the fact that I spliced the movements together offends you, then you can just ignore our music-making.

So everyone else moves up one in the list.

Sam

+1
IMO there is only one solution for this discussion: let's do an International Piano Party (IPP) and let's share our music, live - no edits! -, with others. That's the main spirit, I think.

Wow, 36 pieces in our recital so far!

I have never taken part in these recitals before, but suddenly got the idea this weekend that maybe I should.

But recording is hard

My piano sounds awful, the tuner won't be in until the end of may. The bass also sounds out of balance with the recording device I am using...I'm not in good shape and playing is difficult. And in addition to that I got the worst case of red dot syndrome. I manage to have zero concentration on music, I just cannot help thinking about the recording device and whether the take will be fine or not.

So now I have quite a few takes of the piece, bad and worse and I wonder whether I should just forget about it or submit one of those. Recording after today won't be possible and I am not going to waste time with editing.

Will there be a prize for the worst recording?

Greener

>Thanks wouter79 for your vote .

Good

I just thought it important, to me, your long list of "acceptable edits" and "unacceptable edits" for me exactly seem to comprise a set of "rules" that I'm so glad we don't have so far.

>I am NOT trying to establish any rules or affect any bottom line on my own. Rather, I am just participating in a dialog towards perhaps establishing rules/standards IF, and only IF, it is felt to be beneficial by consensus.

Beginners here well may take your list as the de-facto consensus on this. This is a major reason why I was placing the opposite standpoint.

rnaple

>I can't believe you all have posted all this today. Like a Congressional Investigation! Geesh.....

Sorry to hear this. I was rather trying to STOP all this investigation and rule stuff.
It seems all it does is scaring away the newcomers

Sam S

>A policy could be stated in the recital text, if we could decide on a consensus, but the process of deciding what to say would be contentious and lead to hurt feelings and possibly restrict participation. Ultimately, I think we are individuals here. Submit what our conscience tells you is right.

Exactly my thoughts. We're all adults, Let's focus on our shared love for the music
instead of battling over how it was made.

ShiroKuro

>This recording is my musical gift to anyone who is willing to accept it by listening. It's 100% representative of my playing, and I'm proud of it.

Yes, please post, this is why I'm listening here. I don't care whether or how much you "cheated".
I want to hear your message.

I agree minimal edits are nice. Furthermore, being able to play your piece in one sitting will give better music.
But IMHO priority is the music.

I think you should submit it.

Think of it as a "unplugged" concert performance which I prefer at times. ......

RE: EDITS
Could this issue be made clear? by analogy to stage plays.....
Lets say , your in the mood for Shakespeare,
ummm maybe , "Much Ado About Nothing" and you're out of season for the Shakespeare festival at the college or live, like me, in a old milltown that doesn't have a stagehouse anyway, and most of the live music performed there in town sounds like Betty Davis in "Whatever happened ......"""
So you go to Netflix and rent the one directed by Kenneth Branagh, then you watch it, and say
"Wow, that was really good. But I noticed it wasn't on a stage and clearly I didn't see the pauses between scenes and lines, so he must of ...(used cue cards ,,, or ,fill in what you want here)
Noooooo , you don't do that...... No way,.... instead you think , "Wow that was good. Really good . I'm going to rent more of these plays".

or Maybe start "unplugged" recital quaterlies,, meaning no edits.

I seriously do appreciate Mr. SH's input on this. Good guidelines.

I personally don't care what people do. It's their ball game.

I would like to share my fondest memory of recitals here. Also hopefully find that person again. It was back probably about the time MrSH set up official recitals? It was years ago. One of the times I tried starting piano. I lost my job and had to dump it. I was criticizing everything, constructively.
This person uploaded their performance of "I'll Be Seeing You". That person's mother had died. She always said that to everyone instead of good bye. The person played it because of her and remembering her. I had access to Yamaha's database of pieces. I downloaded the technically perfect version from Yamaha. I compared the two. The Beginner's version was better. I told them so. I'll never forget this one Recital piece. I do forget who the person was. I wonder if they're still here?

<snort> There's *always* a worse case of red dot syndrome. But if you submit you'll get on the Order of the Red Dot list and a medal!

I got a trophy once for worst performance - in bowling. I had the lowest average in the league. I told them I wouldn't accept it if my average came out lower than 100 - even I have my limits to embarrassment. I had a 101. The trophy is the guy standing on his bowling ball with his thumb stuck in the thumb hole. Pretty funny.

Order of the Red Dot forever!

Cathy

Sand Tiger, with all due respect, I categorically reject any depiction of my recording as cheating, or for that matter, as heavily edited. For anyone just tuning in, I edited out a pause in one spot in my recording, that's all. No additions, no alterations of the notes you hear.

Also, in case anyone is wondering, I no longer have my original recording with the pause, because I saved that change within Audacity before making the mp3 file. But at this point, I don't think I'd re-submit that version even if I still had it. What with all the vitriol in this thread, I want to keep my recording on principle, because this is one acceptable way, among many other acceptable ways, to participate in the recital.

As for my (or anyone else's) years of experience, I've said this a million times here. I began as an adult-beginner, and although my playing is now at an intermediate level, I will always consider myself an adult-beginner. And, by the way, I joined this forum (specifically for the ABF) about 10 years ago (FWIW, I believe Mr S-H joined around the same time). This is my pianistic home, and I'm not too keen on being kicked out, thank you very much.

Wouter79:

Thank you for these words.

Sam said:


I will continue to believe that the ABF is just such a place.

Outo, please submit your piece. I'm looking forward to hearing it!

piano primo - "unplugged" was the original expectations of the quarterlies. So the "plugged" ones should be the new recital.

So I'll restate where I think I've gotten to -

I much prefer *no editing inside the playing*. I would like to know if that's been done, so that, for me, I know what I'm listening to and will "manage my expectations" - as another thread is discussing. In other words, I will "expect" a less flawed piece than I might listen to at a "live" recital or a piano party. I don't really listen to see how good the "recording" is, but at least I can try to listen past that if I want. I don't get intimidated by other people's playing, as Sand Tiger worries that many do, but I do have a different sense of what it is I'm listening to.

So, for me, the "disclosure" option works.

We do have "productions" - people doing slide shows, playing with band-in-a-box or equivalent, or adding strings from their keyboard, etc. As long as the piano playing is all them, the disclosure option still works for me. At some point, for me, all the "production" gets in the way of hearing a friend play piano, but I actually do skip the videos mostly already, and many of the "productions". If it's not about the piano playing but is about the "production" I skip it. Again, for me, that's not what the ABF quarterlis are about, and I'd rather that was in a new, separate recital. I would gather that some people also edit within the playing, but I also suspect I already skip some of those for various reasons.

Again, for me, this is an Adult Beginner and Beyond Piano recital, not a "recording" or "production" music forum, so if it's primarily about recording quality or production razz ma tazz, I think it belongs in a different thread than the ABF quarterly. I don't mind it in the ABF - people share many different kinds of music they like in the Rostowsky's Serious thread, for instance - and I think that's a valid thing to do.

I would just prefer, if it's going to be a recital that isn't primarily about the music that Adult Beginners (started as a beginner, or restarted as an adult) make when they sit down and play a piece then it should be a different presentation. It's not really a "recital" at that point, as I think of a recital. And since the ABF quarterlies have been about the music Adult Beginners sitting down to play a piece the best they can do, those with a desire to do something different - productions, or the best edited/enhanced recording they can do or whatever - are the ones who should start a new presentation. There's all kinds of "themed" recitals now that have a different flavor than the quarterlies, and that's fine, and there's room for more.

But the quarterlies have their own raison d'etre, and I'd rather they not get mutated. Have what ever kind of "recital" you want, I have no problem with that, nor does Mr Super-Hunky, but don't mutate the quarterlies. And it isn't up to those of us who have played the quarterlies over the years to start a new recital series, it's up to those who want something different to do that.

Cathy

piano primo - about the renting the netflix - I "don't" think that, but again, I know what I'm getting. Frankly, I almost always prefer the local middle school's live performance, and I think of the ABF quarterlies as the local middle school's live performance. It's not about, to me, how good the production quality is, or even the acting or direction, it's about the "live" music of friends. A distinct difference. If you prefer something different, and would rather that's what people are paying attention to in your submissions, then I think that's what belongs in a recital dedicated to that You apparently want "professional" stuff to be accepted along with the local middle school stuff in the ABF quarterlies, because one accepts both on their own terms. I don't. I want the local middle school. I want the Adult Beginner Forum Quarterly recital, with real live Adult Beginners. The other stuff, on its own terms, to me, belongs somewhere else.

Cathy

I spent a long time trying to write a reply to the last few posts but Cathy has summed it up nicely.

I'd also like to add that I don't think there is any wide-spread feeling of "we don't want advanced players in ABF".
We've been over this I don't know how many times and while some folks are upset or intimidated by more experienced players, I think a greater number truly appreciate seeing how others, farther along in their piano journey, are doing.

I guess I must then. I will just use the first take with some mistakes, since I don't want to listen through them anymore...

wouter79 - for you, it's "about the music" no matter how it's produced.

That isn't true for me, in the sense I think you mean it, nor do I think that's the spirit of the ABF quarterlies.

I think, for you, "the music" is independent of the people and circumstances of its production, and "beautiful music" is, to you, more flawless than not, and more important than the circumstances.

For me, the ABF quarterly recitals are about the music that a particular group of people is making at this stage of their piano journey, and is *not* inseparable from their playing ability at this moment in time. In fact, it is joyous precisely because of their playing ability at this point in time. It is *not* about how well they can edit their playing at this point in time in order to make "more note-perfect music" or whatever their goal is with editing. You might separate the people from the recording, but I don't think that's the spirit of the ABF recitals. For the ABF recitals I think the people and the actual performance as is are not seperable, they are the whole point.

Cathy