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Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions [Re: casinitaly] #2273570
05/10/14 06:54 AM
05/10/14 06:54 AM
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Originally Posted by casinitaly
...
What I think is the most important thing is that the recordings are honest representations of our abilities to play.



I have been following this discussion with interest and I think Casinitaly sums it up very well. One thing that I love about this forum is the mutual supportiveness. This is in no way a competition. As adult beginners/intermediates we know our playing is not perfect. That is not the point. These recitals give us a chance to celebrate where we are in our piano journey. The feedback in the reviews encourages us to keep striving for better. I believe my playing has improved over the last 2 1/2 years in part because of the feedback from these recitals. I take the constructive remarks to heart and work on improving my playing. If I edited, I would deprive myself of this helpful feedback. The quarterlies are still easier than a live recital, but doing them gave me the courage to DO live recitals. So knowing what I submit is a good representation of my current playing ability, and knowing this community will be supportive has kept me coming back every quarter.

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Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions [Re: rnaple] #2273575
05/10/14 07:04 AM
05/10/14 07:04 AM
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Originally Posted by rnaple
Originally Posted by casinitaly
... we live really near a church and the bells ring ....a lot!


Does the bell ringing coincide with the noise from the Netherworld?


Not recently smile


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Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions [Re: SwissMS] #2273607
05/10/14 09:58 AM
05/10/14 09:58 AM
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Originally Posted by SwissMS

I have been following this discussion with interest
...
These recitals give us a chance to celebrate where we are in our piano journey
...
If I edited, I would deprive myself of this helpful feedback. ...

I've also followed with interest ... each time this discussion comes up. There are some valid points on both sides, but no clear consensus it seems. Perhaps general guidelines may help, IF, consensus (Majority Rules) can be arrived at.

For example, Acceptable Edits may include;
- Removing dead time before and after
- Improving sound quality (filters, equalization, adjusting gains etc.)
- Fade ins/outs
- etc.

Unacceptable edits:
- Using same clip in more then one place in same recording. NEVER. Example, using one recorded A phrase to make up the repeat or closing A. Play it again or leave it out.
- Starting again after an error while recording, but editing out the error. No. Always play through the error.
- Removing playing hesitations within the recording. No. Continue working on this to correct the hesitation (if not intentional) but, please leave it and show us.
- Replacing/Pasting anything (note or a few bars) within a complete recorded section (see "Grey area" below).
- may be others

Grey area
edits:
Pasting together sections.

This may be considered acceptable (majority rules) in some circumstances provided:
- Each section is a complete section on its own (ie a bridge passage or a complete A,B,C phrase or coda.)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

If we were to compile general guidelines, it may help guide the direction we want to go with the ABF recital and uphold the values important to us. It is after all a fabulous venue that continues to grow in popularity and with new participants coming on board each time. It is worth the effort, IMO, to establish standards that will keep it great.

A single pass recording should always be the aim, but with some restricted exceptions permitted (as above). The underlying purpose is to present a point in time recording of whatever project you have chosen to present. We can, have and are able to help each other with this in mind. The effort is defeated, however without a true representation of your playing.

This is what I think.

Originally Posted by 8 Octaves

...
No one can play without mistakes, period, unless they play sounding like a robot, which is far worse than mistakes.
...

Of course, everyone makes mistakes. But it is very attainable to learn, practice and perform a single piece, without mistakes. It is in fact what we are all striving for. Until we get there though ... just show it as it is. IT'S FOR OUR OWN GOOD.





Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions [Re: AB Forum Recital] #2273626
05/10/14 10:49 AM
05/10/14 10:49 AM
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Casinitaly said:
Quote
But then some might argue what's the difference in editing out dead air and editing out a flubbed passage?


I guess ultimately, I don't think that editing out a pause and editing out a flubbed passage are all that different. In my case, the pause made it possible me for me to play the next section without messing up. And, the pause itself can be considered a mistake or a flub. By this I mean, it's not in the score, it's not musical, and I didn't pause diliberately. So in this regard, although the results are the same, editing out a pause and editing out a page-turn (which I have done before) might be regarded differently....

SwissMs said:
Quote
The feedback in the reviews encourages us to keep striving for better. I believe my playing has improved over the last 2 1/2 years in part because of the feedback from these recitals. I take the constructive remarks to heart and work on improving my playing. If I edited, I would deprive myself of this helpful feedback.


This is another area where I differ. I have never wanted technical feedback on recordings that I share on ABF (or for that matter, on recordings I share my on Facebook page, or recordings I share with my family). First of all, I have a teacher, who knows my playing better than anyone else, and if I want feedback, I rely on her for that.

My recording is no longer a "work-in-progress" (even though all of my recordings can be improved on, and I've found that my playing of a recorded piece improves after I've stopped trying to record it), it's a snapshot of where I am with the piece at that moment. And just like with photos that we keep and look at in years to come, my recordings are the same. I keep them and listen to them.

So, by the time I'm ready to record, or by the time I decide I can't get any better and I might as well record (which is what happens most often), I know the shortcomings of my performance. And I don't see the online recital, or any other kind of recital , as a time for feedback, for me, it's a time to share my piano-playing where it is now. For those reasons, I have always selected no to feedback ever since it's been an option.

Back to the topic of editing, I guess by Greener's standards (which, as no one will be surprised to hear, I don't fully agree with), my recording would be considered unacceptable.

Greener said:
Quote
The underlying purpose is to present a point in time recording of whatever project you have chosen to present... The effort is defeated, however without a true representation of your playing.


I believe my recording is a true representation of my playing. And IMO it's a much truer representation than someone who recorded several sections at different times/days and later stitched them together. But, having said that, if someone wanted to record that way and share it, I would not call that unacceptable.

And I would think that would still be a better representation of someone's playing than more complicated editing, like adding notes or swapping out mistaken notes with the correct ones or something like that. I myself don't have the know-how, or the software or recording equipment, to do that kind of editing. And I work hard to bring my pieces up to performance level, so if I needed that kind of editing, I would not consider that piece ready for recording.

But that's my stance toward my own music. When I do a recording for the ABF recitals, I always share that recording with friends and family, who I sometimes play for in real life/real time, so I want the recording to be representative of how I can actually play. I would be embarrassed to share something that suggested I can play in a way I actually cannot.

So should we allow other, more elaborate (or some might say evasive) editing? I don't know.... You can't edit if you don't have anything to edit, so the person would have played something. And I guess that level of editing in itself is a kind of musical skill (Glenn Gould anyone?) and if people are upfront with what they're doing, why not allow it? Although, I don't know what Midi can do, if there's something that lets people string notes together that they didn't actually play, well IMO that would be dishonest.

In the absence of a consensus, perhaps we just need to ask people to be honest about what they've done. Then each member can decide for him or herself about whether to listen to and/or comment on the recording.


Started piano June 1999.
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Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions [Re: ShiroKuro] #2273632
05/10/14 11:15 AM
05/10/14 11:15 AM
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Originally Posted by ShiroKuro

Back to the topic of editing, I guess by Greener's standards (which, as no one will be surprised to hear, I don't fully agree with), my recording would be considered unacceptable.

Not my standards, but an example of the type of standards that we could possibly put in place, if agreed upon by a majority and general consensus.

All this discussion has been discussed before and no hard rules put in place. So, nothing changes immediately and may not at all, without buy in from everyone or at least the majority.

Plus, I do not expect we will be engaging the ABF Recital Police to enforce adherence. So, you can always disagree and do things your own way anyway. But, when questions come up about it, it may help if we have general guidelines about the matter.

Lastly, personally I do not care about disclosure. I just want to know that it is what it is and not something else. General guidelines may help. Or not ... smile




Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions [Re: AB Forum Recital] #2273635
05/10/14 11:20 AM
05/10/14 11:20 AM
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In the heat of this moment, I'll have to say -

if we think it's alright to edit out the mistakes, like those "sloppy octaves" I had in my very first piece, or the wrong note on the very last note I played in one piece, or the "tremolo" my professional musician brother laughed at at the end of Sentimental Journey, or the long pause I had in Bethena that I still laugh at because I still wonder if I'm going to start again even tho I recorded it and I *know* I'm going to - or the pasted repeats, or whatever -

I'm outta here.

In the meantime, if that's your standard for recording you're certainly welcome to skip mine. And for the record, I send them to the friends and family.

I'm not a professional recording artist. I don't aspire to be. Frankly, recording is harder for me than playing live, and no where near as rewarding. I know that's backwards from many people, but there it is.

I just left a band I'd been with for almost 20 years because the "oh let's do performances because we're so cool and we can be the band" folks won out over the "let's play music with a bunch of friends and some of them will dance and some will play music" leaning folks. While a recital, including an on-line one, isn't quite the latter, for me the ABF recital is *definitely* not the former.

I also don't do real-life recitals. I enjoy those of friends who play violin, or sing (well, some friends who sing laugh ), but they are really not my orientation. I gig a lot, tho, 4 or 5 times a month.

What comes out in my recital pieces is exactly what happens at a gig. Sloppy octaves, wrong last notes, and all.

For me, the editing is about the technology, not the playing. For me, editing inside the playing *is* different than editing the silence at the beginning and the end. If Sam and Diana take naps in between movements and say so, it still leaves a piece that, while playing, is a one-pass piece, mistakes and all.

For those of you who want your recordings to be for posterity, why not submit one to the ABF, and an edited one for posterity? Shiro Kuro, I have always enjoyed, and been a little in awe of, your piano journey. You approach it in many ways very differently from the way I approach mine. Do you really, live, playing for family, not have those pauses? If you *do* have those pauses, could you think of the ABF as "family/friends - live" and, as I say, submit a "live" recording, and then edit it for the official recording?

I think, as someone else said above, that editing is kind of a slippery slope/arms race. I don't even watch 99.99% of the videos, and tho I probably wouldn't submit to a classical themed recital any way, there was one that required a video, and that for sure would be a deal-breaker.

I may get flamed out of the ABF for this post, but I really do feel strongly. For me, the ABF quarterlies aren't about the technology - they're as close as we can come to a live recital, or, more likely in my case, a real live piano party. God forbid if I edited an ABF quarterly piece and then went to a piano party and everyone expected me to play up to that standard laugh

Cathy


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Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions [Re: AB Forum Recital] #2273638
05/10/14 11:27 AM
05/10/14 11:27 AM
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jotur Offline
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Actually, for the minute, I guess for me anyway, the disclosure part is the beginnings of a compromise. I think there's been some discussion of that in that in the past. Then I know, any way. But maybe in the long run Mr Super-Hunky's floater of a separate recital for more technology-enhanced pieces would work. I suspect I would listen to those, just as I listen to themed recitals that I don't play in, and enjoy them for what they are.

Cathy


Cathy
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Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions [Re: AB Forum Recital] #2273653
05/10/14 12:12 PM
05/10/14 12:12 PM
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Italy
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Cathy, I see nothing inflammatory in what you said.
You put forward some good points.

Greener made a good proposal for a discussion on rules --- personally I'd rather keep any guidelines even more simple: Post your own work, unedited except for removing dead air at the beginning and end.

(Mind you, I wouldn't even know how to do most of the edits you mentioned Greener smile )


It is also my feeling that any concensus reached will be implemented at the next recital. I can't see us asking anyone to redo a recording at this late date and I don't think it is in the spirit of our community to ask anyone to withdraw their submission as a result of this discussion. Just my opinion, obviously smile




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Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions [Re: AB Forum Recital] #2273661
05/10/14 12:25 PM
05/10/14 12:25 PM
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Greener, I'm not sure what you mean by this:
Quote
Lastly, personally I do not care about disclosure. I just want to know that it is what it is and not something else.

What does it mean for a recording to be "what it is and not something else?"


Jotur, I appreciate your comments, and you candor. And I agree with Casinitaly, your comments are not "inflammatory"

Regarding this:
Quote
In the meantime, if that's your standard for recording you're certainly welcome to skip mine.

I don't have a standard for recordings. I have a goal for my own recordings. Everyone else's recording, I take them as they are presented, as a musical gift. I have always enjoyed yours, as I have everyone else's in the ABFs.


Quote
Shiro Kuro, I have always enjoyed, and been a little in awe of, your piano journey.

Thank you Jotur, that's a very kind thing to say.


Quote
Do you really, live, playing for family, not have those pauses?

On good days, yes, I don't have those pauses. And when I do have a pause (while playing live for someone) they can't go back and rewind and we won't hear it again.


Jotur, I'm not sure what you mean by this:
Quote
Actually, for the minute, I guess for me anyway, the disclosure part is the beginnings of a compromise.

Do you mean compromise in a postive, neutral or negative way? Do you mean this as something different from your earlier comment about editing being a slippery slope?


Casinitaly said:
Quote
It is also my feeling that any concensus reached will be implemented at the next recital. I can't see us asking anyone to redo a recording at this late date and I don't think it is in the spirit of our community to ask anyone to withdraw their submission as a result of this discussion.


It's very kind of you to say this, but I'm feeling less comfortable participating as this thread goes on....

Last edited by ShiroKuro; 05/10/14 12:27 PM. Reason: readability

Started piano June 1999.
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Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions [Re: ShiroKuro] #2273679
05/10/14 01:15 PM
05/10/14 01:15 PM
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Originally Posted by ShiroKuro
Greener, I'm not sure what you mean by this:
Quote
Lastly, personally I do not care about disclosure. I just want to know that it is what it is and not something else.

What does it mean for a recording to be "what it is and not something else?"

Yes, I see what you mean ... it sounds contradicting.

For me, recital recordings should simply comply to the spirit of the ABF recital which is "An unedited snap shop of any given project at a particular point in time."

If it turns out that the overall general consensus agrees that all kinds of exceptions are permitted, with full disclosure, then also fine for me. In this case, if I were to come across a disclosure like "I edited out 5 mistakes, removed two hesistations, and the second and third A sections are a repeat of the first" I would simply pass on it, as it is not what the ABF recital represents for me.

Originally Posted by ShiroKuro

...
I'm feeling less comfortable participating as this thread goes on....

Please do not. This is not a personal attack and is good dialog of a topic that clearly requires more dialog. You have not and are not doing anything wrong. My views have changed on the issue over time and I have myself done edits in the past that I would not accept for myself now.


Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions [Re: AB Forum Recital] #2273687
05/10/14 01:26 PM
05/10/14 01:26 PM
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jotur Offline
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Hi, Shiro Kuro - what I mean by "disclosure is the beginning of a compromise" is that since there isn't a consensus, that disclosing edits within the playing is a way of allowing me anyway, to understand that the recording isn't "live" the way I understand "live" to be or "this is the way I play at this point in time" to be. It's a broader/more inclusive viewpoint that the ABF as whole may want.

Alas, I don't have as many "good days" as you have laugh On a good day I may actually not stop on *any* pieces and might play thru *all* the mistakes. I might, in a pinch, have one piece out of 20 that actually has no mistakes.

I think one of the major divides between those of us who prefer "no edits" to those who, like you, want a recording that can be listened to without hearing a pause every time it is played is exactly that. I don't record with any expectation at all that it's going to be listened to again and again. It's always a one-time thing that I e-mail out and people listen to once and then delete laugh

And that's really a personal/personality thing I think, rather than a "cheating or not" thing. I almost never listen to recorded music. Last night a friend of mine and I went to a pizza place to hear the accordion player. Tonight there is live music at a dance, provided by a "pick up" band of any one who wants to play. Tomorrow afternoon is the community concert band's mothers day concert. I played once a week for a "jam" (not, to me, a rehearsal) with the band I was in. Once a month I go to a live music jam of traditional music. I hosted a "people who are new/rusty on their instruments" jam a while back, and will do so again. On earth day there was music by a high school marimba band, not to mention the cacaphony in the parade with people on trumpets and cowbells laugh A couple of weeks ago some friends and I went to a pub and danced to live country western music. A friend's choir is holding its annual dessert concert tomorrow, too. I often go to both the farmers market and the artisans market just to listen to the live music.

So my music experience is different from many, many people here. And different from even the possibilities that many, many people here have, particularly for participation.

Which is why I think, for the minute, the disclosure option would work. As strongly as I feel, there are a lot of different viewpoints out there, and for a lot of different reasons.

But I am strongly biased toward "live" music, and what I think of as "community" music. Many people here either don't have the chance to hear, much less play, that kind of music, and in many of those venues the kind of music that others enjoy isn't played. So mine is an idiosyncratic preference.

And, as I said, I don't even do live recitals, so in some ways I'm out of step with the original idea any way, although I do perform live often.

But, yeah, if changing the wrong notes, cutting and pasting, etc, becomes the norm, then the quarterly recitals aren't my venue.

Cathy


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Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions [Re: AB Forum Recital] #2273701
05/10/14 02:03 PM
05/10/14 02:03 PM
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wouter79 Online content
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Don't worry about Greener's rules.

The recital committee (Monica, mr_super-hunky, Copper, Sam S) determine the bottom line, not Greener. And it's stated on the submission website

http://recitals.pianoworld.com/

FAIK, anything is fine as long as it's an original performance in which you yourself participated.


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Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions [Re: wouter79] #2273711
05/10/14 02:36 PM
05/10/14 02:36 PM
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Originally Posted by wouter79

Don't worry about Greener's rules.

The recital committee (Monica, mr_super-hunky, Copper, Sam S) determine the bottom line, not Greener. And it's stated on the submission website

http://recitals.pianoworld.com/

FAIK, anything is fine as long as it's an original performance in which you yourself participated.

Thanks wouter79 for your vote laugh .

It is my observation that for the most part at least, we are self regulated here without an established hierarchy of who sets rules. With the exception, of course of the rules and code of conduct set forth by Piano World Administration. As such, what is stated on the submission website, came about as the result of agreed upon consensus. I could be wrong about this, but do not think I am.

I am NOT trying to establish any rules or affect any bottom line on my own. Rather, I am just participating in a dialog towards perhaps establishing rules/standards IF, and only IF, it is felt to be beneficial by consensus.



Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions [Re: wouter79] #2273712
05/10/14 02:39 PM
05/10/14 02:39 PM
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Originally Posted by wouter79
Don't worry about Greener's rules.

The recital committee ...


Gee... I thought the recital committee was a dictatorship of Rossy's Basset Hound? smile

I can't believe you all have posted all this today. Like a Congressional Investigation! Geesh.....
I"m still stuck on the 15 seconds of nothing. At least we have another opinion on 18 hours of static recorded...

Last edited by rnaple; 05/10/14 02:39 PM.

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Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions [Re: AB Forum Recital] #2273727
05/10/14 03:28 PM
05/10/14 03:28 PM
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Greener:
Quote
Please do not. This is not a personal attack and is good dialog of a topic that clearly requires more dialog. You have not and are not doing anything wrong

Thank you for that.

Cathy, all your musical activities are so amazing! Playing with others is a skill I haven't had the opportunity to develop, so I envy you that.

regarding this:
Quote
then the quarterly recitals aren't my venue.

See, here's the thing about that... I think the quarterly recitals are your venue, and they are mine. I want us (and everone else) to be welcome in these recitals together. I have always felt that ABF is where I best fit in. I've said this many times here before. I may no longer strictly be a beginner, but I began as an adult and because of that I will always consider myself an adult-beginner. And, the ABF has played a big role in my journey as a pianist and in how I have been able to keep playing and keep improving. The MOYD and recitals have been a huge part of my progression as well (although I haven't been as consistent as I was before I started grad school). So I would hope that the recitals will continue to be somewhere that you and I, and our different approaches, are both welcomed.

Ok, I'll stop. Anyone who hasn't been reading this for the last 24 hours is going to open this thread, look at my posts, and just go "ugh tl;dr" (too long, didn't read)


Started piano June 1999.
Proud owner of a Yamaha C2

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Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions [Re: jotur] #2273734
05/10/14 04:00 PM
05/10/14 04:00 PM
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 2,048
Lisbon, Portugal
CarlosCC Offline
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CarlosCC  Offline
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Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 2,048
Lisbon, Portugal
Originally Posted by jotur
(...) God forbid if I edited an ABF quarterly piece and then went to a piano party and everyone expected me to play up to that standard laugh

Ah, that's exactly what I was thinking about. Great, Cathy, just great.

Well, I've been reading this discussion but, sorry guys, I'm more concerned with this question: The show begins in how many days???? laugh


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"Don't play what's there, play what's not there."
Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions [Re: CarlosCC] #2273742
05/10/14 04:18 PM
05/10/14 04:18 PM
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 2,045
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Whizbang Offline
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Originally Posted by CarlosCC
The show begins in how many days???? laugh


A little over four, but I can get it down to three with Audacity.


Whizbang
amateur ragtime pianist
https://www.youtube.com/user/Aeschala
Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions [Re: Whizbang] #2273754
05/10/14 05:06 PM
05/10/14 05:06 PM
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Posts: 4,597
Southeast US
ShiroKuro Offline
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ShiroKuro  Offline
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Southeast US
Originally Posted by Whizbang
Originally Posted by CarlosCC
The show begins in how many days???? laugh


A little over four, but I can get it down to three with Audacity.


laugh


Started piano June 1999.
Proud owner of a Yamaha C2

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Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions [Re: ShiroKuro] #2273775
05/10/14 07:21 PM
05/10/14 07:21 PM
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Posts: 2,045
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Whizbang Offline
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Originally Posted by ShiroKuro
laugh


wink


Whizbang
amateur ragtime pianist
https://www.youtube.com/user/Aeschala
Re: Recital 34 --- Call For Submissions [Re: AB Forum Recital] #2273785
05/10/14 07:49 PM
05/10/14 07:49 PM
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 3,390
western MA, USA
hreichgott Offline
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hreichgott  Offline
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Posts: 3,390
western MA, USA
Hi all, just wanted to say I'm glad this thread is here. There is another forum to which I submit recordings where the expectation is that any mistakes *will* be edited out -- the admins' opinion being that mistakes detract from the enjoyability of the recording upon repeated listens -- and I have had recordings rejected from there because there were a few unedited errors. It is helpful to know what the expectations are in each community.

Personally, I could go either way. I don't myself feel that a few mistakes destroy the enjoyability of a recording, but I agree with the person above who said that "something must have been played" -- you can edit for accuracy, but it's impossible to edit artistry into a performance that didn't have it to start with. I also agree that edits can be an "arms race" and people feel more pressure to produce note-perfect submissions if there are note-perfect submissions all around them.



Heather W. Reichgott, piano

Working on:
Beethoven - Diabelli Variations Op. 120
Beethoven/Liszt - Symphony no. 7
Tommy (whole show)

I love Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven and new music
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