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Originally Posted by MiguelAngel07
I don't see these as "mods" that Kawai owners should consider doing (risking their warranties) to "improve their instruments"...


To clarify, I am not recommending that all Kawai digital piano owners suddenly undertake these modifications. If a customer is experiencing any issues with his/her instrument, they should contact the dealer from whom the piano was purchased and request that a technician resolves the issue under warranty. I expect this route is successful 99% of the time.

However, there may be instances where a customer is particularly sensitive to some of the characteristics associated with an acoustic-like instrument such as the CA95. If this person enjoys fiddling with technology, and their instrument is second-hand/no longer covered by the original warranty (as in lolatu's case), it may be worthwhile to open-up the instrument and investigate for themselves.

Kind regards,
James
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I had an 1856 Broadwood 7`6 Boudoir Grand, they called `em. Came from an old Church hall, and went into a centrally heated house. I had issues with the tuning, issues with the soundboard; but none with the keyboard. Those keys were LONG!


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I just wonder if there is no 'official' way to adjust the keybed and get rid of some noises or clicks , without having to take the whole keybed out of the cabinet. I wonder if this is really what each Kawai technician has to do at the customer location, when he/she has to readjust some keys. Can't imagine they take the unit apart this far every time. There must be an easier way...

By the way - my keybed is fine. As were my VPC1 , ES7 and CA65 keybed. MP6 only neede some 'repair' after a year, when the bottom case started clicking due to a lack of damping material. Some damping between the upper and bottom case where they met was sufficient. The keybed itself remained fine (no clicks) . Just to indicate cases like this are exemplary and not a brand wide problem.

Last edited by JFP; 05/08/14 05:00 AM.
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Originally Posted by lophiomys
I hope, Kawai would demonstrate their gratitude to lolatu, for pinpointing and solving some of their production / QA problems in a very positive way.

Good suggestion. smile They could:

- Bring out a firmware update with modifiable registrations and a metronome that you can change while it's NOT playing,

OR
- Hire me to design the CA100, since I have a bucket list as long as my arm of evolutionary improvements that could be made, and I fancy being the next Jonathan Ive. I think a range of "Concert Artist - lolAtU edition" products have a certain ring to them...?

The choice is theirs!


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lolatu Offline OP
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Originally Posted by lophiomys
I do not expect much degrading over time in this price class.
What lolatu is documenting looks more like lapses in quality control.

There have been quite a few reports of clicky keys (read through iceporky's thread - I count at least 6 cases including mine), but I'm not sure whether they left the factory like that, or if it occurs in transport. What I've found while trying to fix it is that I've put the thing back together and found new issues coming up (which have been mostly easy to then fix). I think there could be a design issue insofar as they're not rugged or fault-tolerant enough to maintain quiet characteristics whatever you throw at it. Maybe that difficult to achieve with this particular design. Most of the issue seems to be around the balance and front rails, which hopefully can be made more robust in future models.

Quote
Disturbing noise inside a keyboard mechanism, which is (advertised as) extra quiet,
is a serious issue and IMO not picky-ness.

The issue I had (now fixed smile ) with the front rail was certainly not pickiness. I think it would have driven a saint crazy.

Quote
But so far I am very positive about it, as Kawai seems to have a very friendly and prompt customer service.

Probably varies a lot by location, but I don't think there's such a thing as a "Kawai-certified" technician, and from reports on these forums it sounds like, while technicians tend to be friendly and do their best, they usually have never seen a Grand Feel action before in their life and spend hours just trying to open the piano up.

It's not that surprising, given how rare these machines are, but I think Kawai could do a much better job of documenting HOW to open up the machines, and HOW to fix problems like these. I have a CA93 service manual, and it only documents 2 procedures (adjusting capstans, and adjusting let-off tabs). Anything else, and the technician is on his own.

It seems like they're not designed for maintenance, given the difficulty of accessing the key bed (unlike the Yamaha CLP990, where the top lifts easily off as in an acoustic piano). Which would be a good sign, IF they didn't actually need any... !


Quote
Extending to "3 years full warranty" would be another hint to the customer, that he would be offered a quality product.

I believe in the USA they get 5 years full warranty, so the UK is definitely a bit stingy there. I don't see why they have to make it non-transferable either... what difference does it make whether it's still in the possession of the person who bought it originally?


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Originally Posted by lolatu
I have a CA93 service manual, and it only documents 2 procedures (adjusting capstans, and adjusting let-off tabs).


I'm afraid I don't know where you obtained this CA93 service manual, but it sounds rather incomplete compared to the data we have here.

Kind regards,
James
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Originally Posted by peterws
"I consider what the OP here is doing is maintenance. . . "

It`s not, over this time scale. He`s doing a quality audit and the company is found wanting. Badly, imo. Good job Kawai don`t do submarines . . .

I don't mind calling it maintenance so long as it's a properly documented process, that we're told to expect, e.g. after moving the machine. If not, it's a repair, IMO.

If Kawai made submarines, hopefully they'd have the sense not to make them out of wood...


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lolatu Offline OP
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Originally Posted by JFP
I just wonder if there is no 'official' way to adjust the keybed and get rid of some noises or clicks , without having to take the whole keybed out of the cabinet.

Well, the screws for the front rail are only accessible if you unscrew the keyboard assembly from the cabinet. Like I mentioned, it may be possible to tighten them by just tilting the assembly upwards, rather than fully removing it.

Quote
I wonder if this is really what each Kawai technician has to do at the customer location, when he/she has to readjust some keys. Can't imagine they take the unit apart this far every time. There must be an easier way...

It's not actually that difficult to access the keys when you know what you're doing. Undo the 12 screws on the back = 5 mins. Lift off top section = 1 min. Detach key cover = 2 mins. Detach key stop rail = 4 mins (with electric screwdriver). The first time it took a lot longer because I had no idea how to do it.

Originally Posted by Kawai James
I'm afraid I don't know where you obtained this CA93 service manual, but it sounds rather incomplete compared to the data we have here.

The one I have is 56 pages long, but it's mostly circuit diagrams and lists of parts, with some diagrams of how everything fits together. The only procedures documented are on pages 13 and 14. Is there something else?

If they exist, why not make repair instructions widely available? There must be many owners of older models no longer in warranty, so is it just to protect the revenues of technicians? I'm sure it's possible to make a set of repair instructions without giving away trade secrets to the Chinese.


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OK, I have a few more possible issues and solutions. I don't want to make it sound like everyone is getting hundreds of issues with their Grand Feel key actions, but I do want to make this thread a useful compendium of ideas that people can refer to should need be, and hopefully add to and improve upon. The issue with the splinter, and the following issues, came up while I was fixing the original issue of the noisy front rail.

If a technician with experience of fixing these instruments reads this, PLEASE chime in with any additions, tips, or clarifications, for the common good!

I still think that the CA95 is a great piano, and the slightly noisy keys are not a problem at all with headphones. And the good news is that it seems possible to correct any issues fairly easily, to return the instrument to a good-as-new state.


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Title:
Key volume different

Symptoms:
A key is quieter or louder than the others, for a given velocity of strike.

In my case, it was F#3 that was quieter when I re-assembled the piano after removing and replacing all the keys. Altering the key volume in the menus to the maximum +50 largely remedied the sound problem, but obviously I wanted to fix whatever was causing this without having to permanently use this software adjustment.

Fix summary:
Detach sensor board and clean sensor surface

Repair instructions:
I'm not fully sure that this remedy is necessary, or if something else I did (e.g. simply removing and replacing the key and hammer) solved the problem.

1. Unscrew the silver screws along the sensor board, and lift up the board so that the sensors are accessible

[Linked Image]

2. There seemed to be a small spot of grease from the hammer, that had got onto the surface of the sensor, which I wiped off.

3. Re-attach the sensor board and check that the key volume is back to normal.


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Good grief! this is taking on a Monty-Pythonesque hue.

Lolatu - either you got a Friday afternoon piano, or there are some serious quality control problems on the production line of CA65s! .....or you are very, very demanding. Now I don't know what to think..... confused

Last edited by toddy; 05/09/14 05:19 AM.

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This one is only applicable to console models. It only appeared after I'd opened and subsequently re-assembled the piano.

Title: Vibration sound in key stop rail

Symptoms: There was a faint but audible vibration sound coming from the key stop ("logo") rail when playing certain keys.

(Sorry no video. I tried, but you couldn't hear it. I think it's noticeable from the player perspective because the noise is coming from a different position, up towards the top end of the keyboard, that separates it from the key noise. But my mobile phone's microphone is mono.)

Fix summary: Ensure screws on either end of the key stop rail are secured

Repair instructions: Open case and ensure the screws holding the vibrating rail are secured. If they are, then try repositioning the rail slightly and re-securing screws.

Also, if you've previously unscrewed the key assembly, ensure the screws for that are secure.

Last edited by lolatu; 05/09/14 10:52 AM. Reason: Turns out it wasn't the key assembly screws
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Great thread Lolatu!!
I still don't understand those who like to pour oil on troubled waters. Is there any Kawaian Church or something, that I've missed?
First ones are fixes, not modifications.Design failures, not characteristics.
Dp's cushioning and moving parts should be manufactured to last some years, and the warranty should cover that much time, given an average use.
It's really hard not to write the word "nerve" and "cynical" when I read some posts...


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Originally Posted by mabraman
Great thread Lolatu!!
I still don't understand those who like to pour oil on troubled waters. Is there any Kawaian Church or something, that I've missed?
First ones are fixes, not modifications.Design failures, not characteristics.
Dp's cushioning and moving parts should be manufactured to last some years, and the warranty should cover that much time, given an average use.
It's really hard not to write the word "nerve" and "cynical" when I read some posts...


Mabraman, I didn't intend to pour oil at all! I admire anyone who has the skills to do these repairs (I do them myself, but am not so methodical, or successful)

However, lolato has blithely outlined a whole series of fixes for a piano which is almost new. This is very like the Monty Python trick of absurdity through excess (the Cheese Shop sketch for example).

I think this is a problem of non-exportable sense of humour smile Sorry if it offended you, it really was the farthest thing from my mind.


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Originally Posted by toddy
Lolatu - either you got a Friday afternoon piano, or there are some serious quality control problems on the production line of CA65s! .....or you are very, very demanding. Now I don't know what to think..... confused

Well.... this thread isn't really for complaining about my woes, but to help people who have key noises that bother THEM. Different people will be bothered to different extents. Therefore I am including things that I don't necessarily care about or could be said to only annoy an OCD sufferer.

Things like the splinters and vibration sounds only occurred after attempting the first two fixes. It seems that pulling out keys and putting them on carpet can result in splinters forming or changing position slightly. The manufacturers could probably prevent this by sanding down the keys better, but I doubt they'll form under normal circumstances spontaneously. Still, it's conceivable that someone could have the problem from the outset.

I think the loose front rail could be put down as a quality issue. The balance rail click seems more like a design issue, since the back side is held down by an insufficient sticky strip, despite there being places along the back edge where screws could have been placed, which allows the back edge to lift by a fraction of a millimetre, causing a "snap". Well, that's my theory. I've just tried putting some glue on instead of silicone; we'll see if that works a bit better.

TL;DR: only major thing wrong with my unit in particular was the loose front rail, which I've now tightened and fixed. So I guess it's now "better than new".

Originally Posted by mabraman
Great thread Lolatu!!

Thanks!


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This is good work, what ever the cause....as I said above, admirable smile


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Toddy, I wasn't talking about you.
Although you might play a deffective instrument and make good music, it's very annoying to be always forgetting about this or that noise, or click, or crack.
GF is supposed to be the top of the cream in digital actions, and is expensive. So it simply cannot rattle after just a couple years. It's hard to read here such complaints regarding yammies.
I understand that, here in the forums, there are different kind of members, but what I don't see is the point in being so...forgiving whith brands, but demanding with customers who write an accurate review.
And I'll say it again, some comments are plainly shameless.


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Originally Posted by mabraman
Toddy, I wasn't talking about you.
Although you might play a deffective instrument and make good music, it's very annoying to be always forgetting about this or that noise, or click, or crack.
GF is supposed to be the top of the cream in digital actions, and is expensive. So it simply cannot rattle after just a couple years. It's hard to read here such complaints regarding yammies.
I understand that, here in the forums, there are different kind of members, but what I don't see is the point in being so...forgiving whith brands, but demanding with customers who write an accurate review.
And I'll say it again, some comments are plainly shameless.


If you were referring to me, I do know that some of these issues can arise in APs as well, and so I speculated that with the merging of wood and electronics that there will be some issues with humidity changes. The clicking thing is something I've dealt with on my Yamaha AP when the humidity changed and I would have to open it up and tighten all the screws. That is all I was pointing out, not saying that his complaints were not legit. I would have wanted to correct them myself if I encountered them.

I also don't understand the 1 year warranty thing in the UK when the same instrument in the US gets 5 years. Obviously, they are building it to last at least the 5 years (assuming it's not slightly different for different markets, which makes no sense to me in a production).


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Title: Sticky or slow keys

Symptoms: Key is initially harder to press down, and clicks



Alternatively, keys are slow and heavier to push down.



Fix summary: Clean pad / hammer capstan with WD40

Remove splinters / sand down rough edges

Repair instructions:
Open up the piano, and clean the capstan and contact pad on the keys. A small amount of WD40 on a cloth or cotton bud did the trick for me (see second video above).

Another case of splinters appearing after I'd removed the keys to fix the balance rail, though the symptoms are somewhat different to the other case. Simply open up the piano, take out the key and remove rough edges.

Last edited by lolatu; 06/03/14 09:24 AM.
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After reading about the realism of the Kawai MP11's GF soundbed, I ordered one. Fresh out of the box, before even powering up, I found this:
http://youtu.be/zGLASJ-0Ehk
How on Earth can that pass through QC undetected. I'm really annoyed because of the awkwardness and weight involved in boxing it up, managing the stairs, repeating the whole thing with a replacement....
I really wish I'd ordered the MP7.

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